Allen Robinson owners

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TheSpidersFromMars
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Re: Allen Robinson owners

Postby TheSpidersFromMars » Sun Oct 02, 2016 7:50 am

snitchinsider wrote:
TheSpidersFromMars wrote:Yea, he's great before the ball gets to him, but the position is literally called receiver - not route runner. Robinson is not a natural hands catcher - this is well documented in all his pro scouting reports, and its personally obvious to me from watching his film. He catches the ball awkwardly, and often lets it get into his body. I do not see an AJ Green or Hopkins like talent when I watch Robinson handling his targets. He's a good route runner, and he has the physicality to get his body into position, but he doesnt always know what to do with his arms and hands. To me thats a pretty obvious skill set needed to be considered an elite WR. I think this is evident by him only catching 53% of his targets last year.

Now, like I said above, I dont think he's bad. I just dont think he belongs in the elite conversation like so many others around here said.
This sounds like someone confusing a Moncrief game recap with Allen Robinson. Attacking the ball with his hands is one of the things Allen Robinson is unquestionably elite at. Allen Robinson's catch rate was 53% because the Jags used him in jump balls all season long. It was a part of their offense if they saw Robinson in single coverage. Catch rate is a meaningless statistic for receiver evaluation. A better representation would be DROP rate. Robinson's drop rate was 3.3% in 2015. For context, Julio Jones was 3.0%, Odell Beckham was 3.2%, Antonio Brown was 1.0%, Mike Evans was 7.4% and Amari Cooper was 7.7%. And even drop rate isn't great to look at on its own, because how a receiver is used can vastly impact the kind of contact they're receiving when they make a catch.

Allen Robinson does not and never has had a hands problem in the NFL. His hands are one of his greatest strengths. He's a great hands catcher that corrals in passes and does so often in heavy traffic. In totality, he's one of the best in the league at climbing the ladder and snagging balls out of the air. The fact that you would prioritize college scouting reports over actual NFL sample size is insanity. College scouting reports are insights into how a player played at that time, it' s not a prediction of who they are in the future. And, to continue holding on to this opinion, you basically have to have like, not watched any of Allen Robinson in the NFL. Like, none. Because that's pretty much all he did last year was snatch balls out of the air with his hands with a 3.3% drop rate. If he got his hands on it, he was coming down with it.

If there's a fair criticism of Robinson, it would be more specifically that he could work on catching in stride more. If Robinson lets a ball get to his body it's usually while he's in full stride, or protecting himself and the ball for immediate contact on slants. The hand strength and ball skills are very clearly there, but he could probably stand to get better at plucking it while running. He's so good at posting up and going after the ball vertically that he leans on it sometimes in situations where he could probably stay grounded, and probably feels out of his element when catching deep balls in stride as a result. The guy just turned 23. The fact he has already been so prolific and still has areas to improve bodes very well for his future upside.
Ok, do you see what I'm talking about yet? On his TD catch this morning the ball went through his extended arms and into his body. Same thing happened on his TD drop. Not making it up yo.
12 team 0.5 ppr 25 man roster: 1 QB 2 WR 2 RB 1 TE 2 WR/RB/TE Flex

QB: Cam, Ryan
RB: Howard , CJA, Ware, Hill, Gio, Smallwood, D. Washington, Ellington, Gillislee, J. Williams
WR: Julio, Hopkins, KB, Cobb, Stills, C. Meredith, M. Mitchell,
TE: Gronk, Bennett, Maxx, Fiedorowicz
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Re: Allen Robinson owners

Postby Dynasty DeLorean » Sun Oct 02, 2016 8:25 am

Spider you're right in that he doesn't have the best catch technique in all situations, but it hasn't hindered his production and it hasn't led to an abnormal amount of drops. You say things like "he's no Cooper" but Cooper had double Arob's drops on less targets last year. You say he's a "very athletic guy that plays wide receiver" which makes him sound like Sammie Coates and is completely misleading. Allen Robinson is a very athletic wide receiver and that's a good thing. You say "he doesn't always know what to do with his arms and hands" which is just a weird thing to say about a guy like Arob who normally has very good ball skills. Your conclusion that his catch technique is going to limit him as a player is completely unfounded.

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Re: Allen Robinson owners

Postby TheSpidersFromMars » Sun Oct 02, 2016 8:32 am

Dynasty DeLorean wrote:Spider you're right in that he doesn't have the best catch technique in all situations, but it hasn't hindered his production and it hasn't led to an abnormal amount of drops. You say things like "he's no Cooper" but Cooper had double Arob's drops on less targets last year. You say he's a "very athletic guy that plays wide receiver" which makes him sound like Sammie Coates and is completely misleading. Allen Robinson is a very athletic wide receiver and that's a good thing. You say "he doesn't always know what to do with his arms and hands" which is just a weird thing to say about a guy like Arob who normally has very good ball skills. Your conclusion that his catch technique is going to limit him as a player is completely unfounded.
A case of the dropsies isnt the same as not having a natural pass catcher's instinct. I get that people around here think its a weird thing to say. I know its not a normal critique thrown around in this forum.
12 team 0.5 ppr 25 man roster: 1 QB 2 WR 2 RB 1 TE 2 WR/RB/TE Flex

QB: Cam, Ryan
RB: Howard , CJA, Ware, Hill, Gio, Smallwood, D. Washington, Ellington, Gillislee, J. Williams
WR: Julio, Hopkins, KB, Cobb, Stills, C. Meredith, M. Mitchell,
TE: Gronk, Bennett, Maxx, Fiedorowicz
DST: Cardinals

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Re: Allen Robinson owners

Postby FantasyFreak » Sun Oct 02, 2016 8:49 am

TheSpidersFromMars wrote:
snitchinsider wrote:
TheSpidersFromMars wrote:Yea, he's great before the ball gets to him, but the position is literally called receiver - not route runner. Robinson is not a natural hands catcher - this is well documented in all his pro scouting reports, and its personally obvious to me from watching his film. He catches the ball awkwardly, and often lets it get into his body. I do not see an AJ Green or Hopkins like talent when I watch Robinson handling his targets. He's a good route runner, and he has the physicality to get his body into position, but he doesnt always know what to do with his arms and hands. To me thats a pretty obvious skill set needed to be considered an elite WR. I think this is evident by him only catching 53% of his targets last year.

Now, like I said above, I dont think he's bad. I just dont think he belongs in the elite conversation like so many others around here said.
This sounds like someone confusing a Moncrief game recap with Allen Robinson. Attacking the ball with his hands is one of the things Allen Robinson is unquestionably elite at. Allen Robinson's catch rate was 53% because the Jags used him in jump balls all season long. It was a part of their offense if they saw Robinson in single coverage. Catch rate is a meaningless statistic for receiver evaluation. A better representation would be DROP rate. Robinson's drop rate was 3.3% in 2015. For context, Julio Jones was 3.0%, Odell Beckham was 3.2%, Antonio Brown was 1.0%, Mike Evans was 7.4% and Amari Cooper was 7.7%. And even drop rate isn't great to look at on its own, because how a receiver is used can vastly impact the kind of contact they're receiving when they make a catch.

Allen Robinson does not and never has had a hands problem in the NFL. His hands are one of his greatest strengths. He's a great hands catcher that corrals in passes and does so often in heavy traffic. In totality, he's one of the best in the league at climbing the ladder and snagging balls out of the air. The fact that you would prioritize college scouting reports over actual NFL sample size is insanity. College scouting reports are insights into how a player played at that time, it' s not a prediction of who they are in the future. And, to continue holding on to this opinion, you basically have to have like, not watched any of Allen Robinson in the NFL. Like, none. Because that's pretty much all he did last year was snatch balls out of the air with his hands with a 3.3% drop rate. If he got his hands on it, he was coming down with it.

If there's a fair criticism of Robinson, it would be more specifically that he could work on catching in stride more. If Robinson lets a ball get to his body it's usually while he's in full stride, or protecting himself and the ball for immediate contact on slants. The hand strength and ball skills are very clearly there, but he could probably stand to get better at plucking it while running. He's so good at posting up and going after the ball vertically that he leans on it sometimes in situations where he could probably stay grounded, and probably feels out of his element when catching deep balls in stride as a result. The guy just turned 23. The fact he has already been so prolific and still has areas to improve bodes very well for his future upside.
Ok, do you see what I'm talking about yet? On his TD catch this morning the ball went through his extended arms and into his body. Same thing happened on his TD drop. Not making it up yo.
The pass was into his body on a short slant. He caught the ball with his hands. It was in on his body, so he couldn't extend his arms. Nothing wrong with that. Not sure how you think he didn't catch that ball with his hands.

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Re: Allen Robinson owners

Postby snitchinsider » Sun Oct 02, 2016 10:16 am

The pass was dropped. I already cited his drop rate from last season as being near-identical to OBJ and Julio. You can't point out one or two drops this season to make that case and then ignore the entire season of production he had last year. This season has been a small sample size, Bortles has played poorly and Robinson has dropped a few passes this season already. With that said, Robinson has also been mugged hard this season by defenders. They've thrown flags on some of them, but a lot of them they've let go, too. The Jags were only in position for Robinson to drop that touchdown because they mugged Robinson and he drew a PI in the endzone as a result. Hard to catch passes with defenders hanging on you. Also, in the redzone if you don't have to go up in the air or extend to hands catch it, it's good to catch it in your body because you can shield the ball easier from immediate contact. It's very common for players to catch that way when contact is imminent. Randy Moss did it routinely, as does everyone else. It's situational football.
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Re: Allen Robinson owners

Postby TheSpidersFromMars » Sun Oct 02, 2016 10:42 am

snitchinsider wrote:The pass was dropped. I already cited his drop rate from last season as being near-identical to OBJ and Julio. You can't point out one or two drops this season to make that case and then ignore the entire season of production he had last year. This season has been a small sample size, Bortles has played poorly and Robinson has dropped a few passes this season already. With that said, Robinson has also been mugged hard this season by defenders. They've thrown flags on some of them, but a lot of them they've let go, too. The Jags were only in position for Robinson to drop that touchdown because they mugged Robinson and he drew a PI in the endzone as a result. Hard to catch passes with defenders hanging on you.
Seems like people here do not have the ability to understand all the nuances of gathering a catch. It's not so much about the stats (drop percentage etc). If you had a split screen of ARob gathering catches and AJG/Nuk/Cooper/AB/OBJ/Julio (to a slightly lesser extent) gathering catches they would not look the same. There is a form there that all the greats have. All those other guys invite the ball in like your grandmas hug when she welcomes you in on thanksgiving. If you want to argue it doesnt impact his production - fine, but im not gonna put him in that elite tier since I have no way of projecting what his situation will be in years to come. Maybe he ends up on a team where the guy on the other side of the field is just as good and he's not peppered with targets the whole game. Maybe the Jags D will be elite next year and they have no need to throw the ball around the way they do. The only thing I can analyze and keep as a "control" is the player's finite ability, and the fact is that ARob isnt god tier at something essential to my judgement of being an elite wr. He may be a top 8 WR over the next 5 years, but its not as probable as the other guys due to that shortcoming.
12 team 0.5 ppr 25 man roster: 1 QB 2 WR 2 RB 1 TE 2 WR/RB/TE Flex

QB: Cam, Ryan
RB: Howard , CJA, Ware, Hill, Gio, Smallwood, D. Washington, Ellington, Gillislee, J. Williams
WR: Julio, Hopkins, KB, Cobb, Stills, C. Meredith, M. Mitchell,
TE: Gronk, Bennett, Maxx, Fiedorowicz
DST: Cardinals

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Re: Allen Robinson owners

Postby snitchinsider » Sun Oct 02, 2016 2:33 pm

TheSpidersFromMars wrote:
snitchinsider wrote:The pass was dropped. I already cited his drop rate from last season as being near-identical to OBJ and Julio. You can't point out one or two drops this season to make that case and then ignore the entire season of production he had last year. This season has been a small sample size, Bortles has played poorly and Robinson has dropped a few passes this season already. With that said, Robinson has also been mugged hard this season by defenders. They've thrown flags on some of them, but a lot of them they've let go, too. The Jags were only in position for Robinson to drop that touchdown because they mugged Robinson and he drew a PI in the endzone as a result. Hard to catch passes with defenders hanging on you.
Seems like people here do not have the ability to understand all the nuances of gathering a catch. It's not so much about the stats (drop percentage etc). If you had a split screen of ARob gathering catches and AJG/Nuk/Cooper/AB/OBJ/Julio (to a slightly lesser extent) gathering catches they would not look the same. There is a form there that all the greats have. All those other guys invite the ball in like your grandmas hug when she welcomes you in on thanksgiving. If you want to argue it doesnt impact his production - fine, but im not gonna put him in that elite tier since I have no way of projecting what his situation will be in years to come. Maybe he ends up on a team where the guy on the other side of the field is just as good and he's not peppered with targets the whole game. Maybe the Jags D will be elite next year and they have no need to throw the ball around the way they do. The only thing I can analyze and keep as a "control" is the player's finite ability, and the fact is that ARob isnt god tier at something essential to my judgement of being an elite wr. He may be a top 8 WR over the next 5 years, but its not as probable as the other guys due to that shortcoming.
I understand the nuance of the argument. What I'm saying, is that your persistence that Robinson doesn't snag balls out of the air with his hands is just not correct. That's what he does. It's literally his best asset. Does he catch the ball in his body sometimes? Yes. So does Randy Moss. So does every receiver when the time calls for it, especially if you are expecting heavy contact. Could he be better about hands-catching in stride? Absolutely, I agree. But does he absolutely positively pluck the ball out of the air over defenders with his hands? Good god yes he does. It's what he does. I could show you a litany of plays but all you're going to tell me is "that's highlights anyone can look good in highlights." Here's the thing, if he's getting PRODUCTION from THOSE HIGHLIGHTS with his hands being used properly, then you can't argue "they're just highlights." It's highlights demonstrating bulks of production doing exactly what you're saying he doesn't do for his production. It matters. It counts.

I mean, just last week: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQ5W93li2ZY

And that's nothing out of the usual. That's the kind of thing people expect out of Robinson because that's what his skillset entails. Are his hands as natural as Hopkins or OBJ, or AJ Green? No. But very few people's hands are, even among elite receivers.

You'll have to click through the video titles to YouTube since they block embedding.




and another https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9G4CqSzKMM#t=0m57s
and again https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9G4CqSzKMM#t=2m20s
this too https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9G4CqSzKMM#t=3m33s
and more http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-high ... -touchdown

That's like three seconds of looking. It's effortless to find this stuff because it's precisely how he got his production, making those snag grabs out of the air.
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Re: Allen Robinson owners

Postby FantasyFreak » Sun Oct 02, 2016 5:22 pm

TheSpidersFromMars wrote:
snitchinsider wrote:The pass was dropped. I already cited his drop rate from last season as being near-identical to OBJ and Julio. You can't point out one or two drops this season to make that case and then ignore the entire season of production he had last year. This season has been a small sample size, Bortles has played poorly and Robinson has dropped a few passes this season already. With that said, Robinson has also been mugged hard this season by defenders. They've thrown flags on some of them, but a lot of them they've let go, too. The Jags were only in position for Robinson to drop that touchdown because they mugged Robinson and he drew a PI in the endzone as a result. Hard to catch passes with defenders hanging on you.
Seems like people here do not have the ability to understand all the nuances of gathering a catch. It's not so much about the stats (drop percentage etc). If you had a split screen of ARob gathering catches and AJG/Nuk/Cooper/AB/OBJ/Julio (to a slightly lesser extent) gathering catches they would not look the same. There is a form there that all the greats have. All those other guys invite the ball in like your grandmas hug when she welcomes you in on thanksgiving. If you want to argue it doesnt impact his production - fine, but im not gonna put him in that elite tier since I have no way of projecting what his situation will be in years to come. Maybe he ends up on a team where the guy on the other side of the field is just as good and he's not peppered with targets the whole game. Maybe the Jags D will be elite next year and they have no need to throw the ball around the way they do. The only thing I can analyze and keep as a "control" is the player's finite ability, and the fact is that ARob isnt god tier at something essential to my judgement of being an elite wr. He may be a top 8 WR over the next 5 years, but its not as probable as the other guys due to that shortcoming.
Not sure you do, either, to be honest.

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Re: Allen Robinson owners

Postby TheSpidersFromMars » Sun Oct 02, 2016 6:16 pm

Gonna be that guy and say ive played and watched football constantly for 20+ years. but apparently i am not articulating what i see very well. throwin the flag in on this one. see you guys in the inevitable jordan howard thread.
12 team 0.5 ppr 25 man roster: 1 QB 2 WR 2 RB 1 TE 2 WR/RB/TE Flex

QB: Cam, Ryan
RB: Howard , CJA, Ware, Hill, Gio, Smallwood, D. Washington, Ellington, Gillislee, J. Williams
WR: Julio, Hopkins, KB, Cobb, Stills, C. Meredith, M. Mitchell,
TE: Gronk, Bennett, Maxx, Fiedorowicz
DST: Cardinals

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Re: Allen Robinson owners

Postby FiremanEd » Sun Oct 02, 2016 6:27 pm

Probably for the best. You guys are debating him hands catching or not. Not whether he is a good enough catcher period. Not whether he catches TDs. Not whether he can get 1200 yards. I think it was really a conversation about nothing. Whether he catches hands or is too much in his body, i don't think it hurt him last year, which shows what he's capable of. His prospects will be defined elsewhere, so who really cares.

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Re: Allen Robinson owners

Postby Dynasty DeLorean » Sun Oct 02, 2016 6:35 pm

TheSpidersFromMars wrote:Maybe he ends up on a team where the guy on the other side of the field is just as good and he's not peppered with targets the whole game.
He was on a team last year where the WR opposite him had 1000 yards and 10 tds.

TheSpidersFromMars wrote: Maybe the Jags D will be elite next year and they have no need to throw the ball around the way they do.
He had 150 targets last year, which is on par with other top-end WR's.



If my memory serves me correct, Terrell Owens wasn't the most beautiful catcher of the football or whatever it is you're talking about... but that didn't prevent him from being a beast. We all understand where you're coming from, the problem is your conclusions don't seem grounded in reality.

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Re: Allen Robinson owners

Postby TheSpidersFromMars » Sun Oct 02, 2016 6:43 pm

Thats not really what im debating. Kinesthetic sense is a real thing. He has it with his body, but not as much with his arms and hands. He'd be a lousy tennis player.
Last edited by TheSpidersFromMars on Sun Oct 02, 2016 6:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
12 team 0.5 ppr 25 man roster: 1 QB 2 WR 2 RB 1 TE 2 WR/RB/TE Flex

QB: Cam, Ryan
RB: Howard , CJA, Ware, Hill, Gio, Smallwood, D. Washington, Ellington, Gillislee, J. Williams
WR: Julio, Hopkins, KB, Cobb, Stills, C. Meredith, M. Mitchell,
TE: Gronk, Bennett, Maxx, Fiedorowicz
DST: Cardinals

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Re: Allen Robinson owners

Postby Dynasty DeLorean » Sun Oct 02, 2016 6:43 pm

TheSpidersFromMars wrote:Thats not really what im debating.
Yet you're the one who brought it up...

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Re: Allen Robinson owners

Postby TheSpidersFromMars » Sun Oct 02, 2016 6:52 pm

Dynasty DeLorean wrote:
TheSpidersFromMars wrote:Thats not really what im debating.
Yet you're the one who brought it up...
iirc someone made a post that had me defend my opinion that he wasnt elite.
12 team 0.5 ppr 25 man roster: 1 QB 2 WR 2 RB 1 TE 2 WR/RB/TE Flex

QB: Cam, Ryan
RB: Howard , CJA, Ware, Hill, Gio, Smallwood, D. Washington, Ellington, Gillislee, J. Williams
WR: Julio, Hopkins, KB, Cobb, Stills, C. Meredith, M. Mitchell,
TE: Gronk, Bennett, Maxx, Fiedorowicz
DST: Cardinals


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