Jarryd Hayne, RB SF

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Re: Jarryd Hayne, RB SF

Postby Dookmarriot » Wed Sep 09, 2015 12:04 pm

ninotoreS wrote:I don't know about 'athleticism'. Rugby-union just favors thick, slow-twitch white guys that are good at pushing. And then the one guy that's good at place-kicks (speaking of which, I think it's hilarious how the spectators are politely silent when a kick is taken). Rugby-league (Hayne's sport) is better, but still doesn't reward agility and hand-eye coordination remotely as much as American football does.
I don't agree with that assessment of rugby at all. Yeah, there's "pushing," but there's also fluid play (cardio wise, it's the hardest sport I've ever played, including hockey), tons of contact, and everybody is expected to be able to catch and run with the ball, even the "thick" guys. I played linebacker and d-line in college, and football is obviously a challenging sport, but I found it far more challenging athletically. No 30 minutes of actual action in a 3 hour contest in rugby.

Never mind that in my second scrum, someone punched me right in the throat. Football seemed genteel in comparison.
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Re: Jarryd Hayne, RB SF

Postby Dynasty DeLorean » Wed Sep 09, 2015 2:22 pm

all i know is that i watched a few rugby matches at a random point in time and some ex-nfl scrub who couldn't even make a roster was running circles around the rest of the rugby players :lol:

Granted i have no idea what league this was, assuming there is more than 1 rugby league..

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Re: Jarryd Hayne, RB SF

Postby ninotoreS » Wed Sep 09, 2015 2:50 pm

Dookmariot wrote: I don't agree with that assessment of rugby at all. Yeah, there's "pushing," but there's also fluid play (cardio wise, it's the hardest sport I've ever played, including hockey), tons of contact, and everybody is expected to be able to catch and run with the ball, even the "thick" guys. I played linebacker and d-line in college, and football is obviously a challenging sport, but I found it far more challenging athletically. No 30 minutes of actual action in a 3 hour contest in rugby.
Cardio-wise, sure, rugby is a lot more challenging than American football. There's a lot more to athleticism than just anaerobic conditioning, though. I played soccer competitively from age 5 to age 18, and was on the Olympic Development Program regional team for the southeast United States for four years. By the U-17 level, I was probably running something like 8 miles a game as a winger. Summer conditioning for my club team was pure hell; I used to throw up before training because the imminent misery filled me with such dread. Believe me, I know all about cardio.

So did you play rugby-union code or rugby-league code? I've had Aussies on the net bawl me out on the differences. Much of Rugby-union consists of series of short laterals for small gains in which everyone piles on and pushes before handing off for another lateral. People are moving constantly but there's not much open-field sprinting, or really anything remotely creative going on. I had an NZ rugby fan once tell me he thought RB jump-cuts in football were 'awkward and stupid looking'. Spoke volumes.

Rugby-league is better than rugby-union for all around athleticism because of how the resets are handled, effectively creating a little more open space for ball-carriers to work with. It's no coincidence this is the code Hayne comes from. But agility requirements are still low, and although some tricky things can be done with laterals, they're still short-distance.
I played linebacker and d-line in college
So you're a big dude, I take it. I imagine cardio fitness in a sport with no breaks would be especially challenging for someone 250+ lbs.
Last edited by ninotoreS on Wed Sep 09, 2015 7:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Jarryd Hayne, RB SF

Postby Dookmarriot » Wed Sep 09, 2015 4:25 pm

ninotoreS wrote: Cardio-wise, sure, rugby is a lot more challenging than American football. There's a lot more to athleticism than just anaerobic conditioning, though.
Absolutely. But on the whole, I felt I had to be in far better shape to keep up in rugby than in football. The transition from scrum to sprint was something to get used to.

I would agree that the skill players in the NFL have exceptional skills you don't see in rugby, but that may be less about athletic ability than the rigours/necessities of the game. And while that might be true of the high end NFL players, I'd argue that the average rugby player is a better athlete than the average NFL player. The big guys at the World Cup level can grind, hit, and MOVE.
ninotoreS wrote:I played soccer competitively from age 5 to age 18, and was on the Olympic Development Program regional team for the southeast United States for four years. By the U-17 level, I was probably running something like 8 miles a game as a winger. Summer conditioning for my club team was pure hell; I used to throw up before training because the imminent misery filled me with such dread. Believe me, I know all about cardio.
If there is one thing I don't miss about playing competitive sports, it's the training until you vomit. I had one sadistic coach in college who had us do crab crawls up and down the field until we were jelly. Worked, though...we were always fresher in the fourth quarter than the other teams. I'm sure I was never training anywhere near to your level, but the level I got to was more than enough for me.
ninotoreS wrote: So did you play rugby-union code or rugby-league code? You know there's a huge difference, right?
Canadian, so I'm a pure rugby union and CFL guy, from upbringing if nothing else. Although I'm with you the rugby league game is very entertaining. I don't agree with the "nothing creative going on" suggestion, though. I think that's only true if you look at things from the outside. I mean, I've taken British friends to American football games, and they think it's the dumbest, most turgid sport around. I don't agree, but it's a defensible opinion.
ninotoreS wrote:So you're a big dude, I take it. I imagine cardio fitness in a sport with no breaks would be especially challenging for someone 250+ lbs.
Well, coming from a sport where you only moved in ten second bursts, it sure was. Luckily I'm carrying a much more rational 220 lbs these days. I only played at average levels, and there are things that still hurt. I have no idea how much pain a NFL player must be in after a game.
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Re: Jarryd Hayne, RB SF

Postby Westy22 » Wed Sep 09, 2015 4:34 pm

Dooomariot obviously understands Rugby and Rugby League. Very different games, both remarkably creative at time and very exciting. I think the Rugby League players especially the forwards are far tougher than NFL players. Until you have watched State of Origin you cannot really understand this!

I love my NFL more mainly because it is a more technical and thinking game. However, some of the anti rugby remarks in here are plain stupid and show as much of a lack of understanding of Rugby as Rugby fans have of American Football. Reeks of 'I don't understand it, so it is inferior'.

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Re: Jarryd Hayne, RB SF

Postby Angus Osborne » Wed Sep 09, 2015 5:49 pm

ninotoreS wrote:
Dookmariot wrote: So did you play rugby-union code or rugby-league code? You know there's a huge difference, right? 75% of Rugby-union consists of series of short laterals for small gains in which everyone piles on and pushes before handing off for another lateral. People are moving constantly but there's not much open-field sprinting, or really anything remotely creative going on. I had a foreign rugby fan once tell me he thought RB jump-cuts in football were 'awkward and stupid looking'. Spoke volumes.
Jump-cuts wouldn't work often in Rugby or Rugby-League because defenders aren't engaged by blockers. Moves have to be made on the run. Watler Payton would have been a great runner in Rugby. Barry Sanders not so much.

I think a lot of Haynes skills are very applicable to NFL. Punt Returns are very close to a major job of Rugby League fullbacks. Taking a hit, ball security, stiff-arms, hitting the hole, kick-off coverage, punt coverage should be fine. And I would expect him to be great in open space.

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Re: Jarryd Hayne, RB SF

Postby danes1212 » Thu Sep 10, 2015 8:35 pm

He's listed as the 3rd RB on the latest "unofficial" depth chart and sharing punt return and kick return with Reggie bush. I think he'll probably take over as #2 on depth and surpass Reggie bush by week 4. That's my prediction as a Niner fan. I think him and Hyde will be a 1-2 punch out of the backfield. Could be a really entertaining offense to watch if they are creative with play calling. Can't wait for Monday! Go niners!

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Re: Jarryd Hayne, RB SF

Postby thirtyseven » Thu Sep 10, 2015 10:43 pm

I though i'd give an Australian perspective on the whole Jarryd Hayne thing.

He's twice been the Dally-M Medalist (MVP equivalent) and really was one of the best in the game. And it shocked many that he left. I wouldnt say that he was a stand out but still one of the games elite.

Not counting third party endorsements, he probably would have been earning about $1m AUD (about $750K) per season if he stayed. Currently He's earning the rookie Minimum of $435K US, By the time he is eliglible for a 2nd contract he'll be 30. When he left he was only guaranteed $100K he got as a signing bonus, so he's certainly not doing it for the money as he is effectively taking a paycut. This is promising that his desire to succeed isnt driven by the $.

The Australian media is ridiculous. Horrendous... cant express my annoyance in words... but to sum it up i present to you Sydneys Daily Telegraph giving a quick and dirty on the 49ers:

Star players: Kap, Bush and Hayne
Player to watch: Navarro Bowman...

Anywho, Haynes initial success is bringing NFL to mainstream Australian media, despite it's click bait reporting, can only be a good thing for the NFL... Nevermind that we've already had Australians in the NFL, mainly kickers, but also notably Jesse Williams of the Seahawks (out of Alabama). But none with household appeal of Hayne

From a dynasty POV, i've been following Hayne since he decided to make the switch in October last year. I only have 2 Dynasty teams, but i dont own Hayne in either. Sure it's a nice story and he might be successful in patches but i'm not buying him a fantasy contributor. I think he'll be able to contribute to the 49ers on special teams and occasionally as a RB. but I jsut dont see him topping the depth chart.

If Roger Tuivasa-Sheck (Kiwi playing league) decided to make the switch i'd be more optimistic... He also has a more typical RB body and is a lot younger. Don't see it happening though.

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Re: Jarryd Hayne, RB SF

Postby Dookmarriot » Fri Sep 11, 2015 3:57 am

Westy22 wrote:
I love my NFL more mainly because it is a more technical and thinking game. However, some of the anti rugby remarks in here are plain stupid and show as much of a lack of understanding of Rugby as Rugby fans have of American Football. Reeks of 'I don't understand it, so it is inferior'.
Yeah, I don't think ol' Nino was trying to be dismissive, but to say rugby is "not a remotely creative sport" is a pretty staggering statement. It certainly doesn't describe the game I played and love to watch. I can't wait for the World Cup, personally.

I've been on the other side, as I've said. Outsiders (like my European friends) can look at the NFL, with its outlandish equipment, almost ridiculous specialization, and astonishing lack of real game play (far more waiting around than actual action) and conclude it's silly, overwrought, and pomp over real sport. But like saying rugby isn't creative, I put that down to not understanding the game.

I mean, people say soccer is dull, right? Just a bunch of people kicking back and forth for 90 minutes, and then falling down and writhing at the slightest contact? I find that perspective ignorant, and we're skirting that territory with the characterization of rugby.
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Re: Jarryd Hayne, RB SF

Postby clarion contrarion » Fri Sep 11, 2015 4:00 am

^^^ welcome and thanks for the perspective from down under . Thanks also for the early heads up on the younger player , it never hurts to file a name away for a rainy day .

edit this was aimed towards 37
dook snuck a post in on me afore I could get this posted
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Re: Jarryd Hayne, RB SF

Postby ericanadian » Fri Sep 11, 2015 4:51 am

Darkness wrote:all i know is that i watched a few rugby matches at a random point in time and some ex-nfl scrub who couldn't even make a roster was running circles around the rest of the rugby players :lol:

Granted i have no idea what league this was, assuming there is more than 1 rugby league..
Scrubs from the NFL often run all over guys in the CFL as well so what league you're watching would be important.

I'd say the NFL has more depth of talent because I suspect that they have more people playing the game and those that play are far closer in proximity. I'd also say the big difference is that NFL players are more specialized. Their strongest are probably stronger than the strongest rugby guys. Their fastest are probably faster. Their agile are probably more agile and so forth. Rugby requires a more general atheticism as even the big guys need to run and even the small guys need to hit. There are no Deion Sanders in rugby, but there are probably a load of Brian Urlachers. I can see why you might view there being less creativity as well given that there is less of a breadth in skillset. I'm not sure that's true, but it's probably easier to see in NFL. I've practised with some of the guys from our Canadian National team and they seem like pretty ridiculous human beings and I doubt they'd look out of place at the combine in terms of athleticism.
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Re: Jarryd Hayne, RB SF

Postby Dookmarriot » Fri Sep 11, 2015 6:24 am

The specialization point is a massive one. A star wide receiver or running back can do some truly amazing things, but the scope of what they're going to be asked to do is limited by how relatively narrow their role is. An elite lineman can do astounding things, as well. But if you asked a lineman to receive, or a receiver to rush the passer, they'd be lost and/or lit up. A rugby player has to be a much more rounded athlete.

Doesn't make one sport better or worse than the other, mind you. Although I'll say this...if you took the 15 most athletic New England Patriots and threw them in a pit against the New Zealand All Blacks, I'd lay money on the All Blacks coming out. Although I would pay good money to see a Nonu/Gronk throwdown!

And personally, I think the Haka is the coolest thing in sports.
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Re: Jarryd Hayne, RB SF

Postby clarion contrarion » Fri Sep 11, 2015 10:00 am

so dook, you are saying that rugby players are like a field full of JJWatts I would watch that if there is violence tell me where to find it please!. I miss the more brutal NFL even if it was barbaric .
If the rugby guys are less less athletic than DHB or dri archer that would only give me more reason watch , those dudes may be athletic but they add so very little in terms of football acumen I would settle for some less athletic guys that make football plays. ( LISTEN UP KEVIN COLBERT)
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Re: Jarryd Hayne, RB SF

Postby Dookmarriot » Fri Sep 11, 2015 10:28 am

clarion contrarion wrote:so dook, you are saying that rugby players are like a field full of JJWatts I would watch that if there is violence tell me where to find it please!. I miss the more brutal NFL even if it was barbaric .
If the rugby guys are less less athletic than DHB or dri archer that would only give me more reason watch , those dudes may be athletic but they add so very little in terms of football acumen I would settle for some less athletic guys that make football plays. ( LISTEN UP KEVIN COLBERT)
The World Cup gets started this weekend. Host country is England, so catching the games should be easier. Not sure where it would be broadcast in the US of A, but it will be all over the sports stations as their morning programming in the Great White North. Hope for a better final this time, though...they've been underwhelming the last few years. Canada is in, but is likely to end up as roadkill.

Best games are when the big boys - Australia, South Africa, and New Zealand - knock heads. The games will be brutal. France and England are perennial powerhouses, too. Watch Ireland and Tonga as darkhorses.

Look up a retired French player Sebastien Chabal. The guy seriously looks like something from prehistory. He didn't get the nickname The Caveman for nothing.
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"Because of (the Raiders), there's the no-clothesline rule, the no-hitting-out-of-bounds rule, the no-fumbling-forward-in-the-last-two-minutes rule, the no-throwing-helmets rule and the no-Stickum rule. So you see, we're not all bad." - Ted "The Mad Stork" Hendricks

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Re: Jarryd Hayne, RB SF

Postby clarion contrarion » Fri Sep 11, 2015 11:36 am

you had piqued my interest but alas it is only PPV clarion don't play that ..... EVER... and even if I did likely not at the launch or football season but thanks for the heads up and info just the same .
.....this has been a public service announcement from forum superstar clarion contrarion
QB luck- driskell
WR ant brown evans c davis golladay godwin gordon j washington doctson watson lazard patrick henderson
RB mixon cohen chubb aaron jones hunt malcolm brown
TE eifert howard njoku
K tucker DEF pittsburgh chicago
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2013 ACDL runner up
2013 2014 2017 & 2018 (Undefeated 15-0 ) WORILDS OF HURT CHAMPION
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