Need some opinions on payouts/league voting

[bubbamsu]

This is a 14 team league that was a start up last year, where a few of us including myself that did not read the small print in some of the rules. Most of the league bylaws/scoring are your average stuff, but 3 rules did not sit too well with me and a few other guys. So we waited until the off season to bring the discussions up and put them to a league vote. Which I believe is the right way and truly the only way to change rules. Here are the issues:

1. Division Realignment
We have 2 divisions of 7 and at the least, they should be randomly realigned, but they are not at the moment.

2. The current voting system has any rules change needs to be passed by 70% of the owners. In my opinion, majority rules(51%), and in case of a 7-7 tie, then the old rule would be kept intact. We are voting to improve/tweak the league, not change legislation.

3. Here is the big issue that I have. Currently the top 6 teams make the Championship Bracket. With Payouts for 1-4 and the 5th and 6th place team get nothing, which is fine. Teams 7-10 play for the Consolation Bracket, and this is where I have a problem. The winner of this gets more $$$$ then the 4th place finisher. Which to me is absolutely insane. No way should a team that finished lower should get more money then a team that finished better at the end of the season. This issue has been strongly debated between the two sides and to me this should not even be a point of contention. I have suggested give the 7th place winner a different pick, a few more FAB $ as a reward, but not real $.

With the 70 % voting measurement, I highly doubt that any of these issues will pass.

Am I crazy in my thinking? Thoughts? I would like others to chime in, please.

[Telperion]

You're not crazy in your thinking about the consolation bracket winner.

However, I do have to nicely call you on calling it "small print". Unless it was actually small print, you just didn't read the entire rules and made assumptions. You did own it, but "a few of us didn't read the small print" is attempting to remove responsibility from yourself with an "everybody did it" defense and shift blame to the rules author.

Just own it, no big deal. I'd rather somebody fully own something than try to justify it, it rubs me the wrong way.

If there's been hearty debate, it likely won't change (but try proposing the change) and you'll have to deal with it or leave the league hopefully a little wiser in either scenario.

[doktor]

I completely agree with Telperion here.

First, this is on you. Sorry, but it is. Read all rules and bylaws and know what you're signing before you sign.

That being said:

- Division realignment: Meh. Who cares. It's fun to shift them every so often, but is it really a big deal? Play the game and have fun. More than likely the league will be in agreement on this after 3 or so years (a typical realignment timeframe anyways).
- Vote required for rule change: I've seen majority (51%) as the most common, but I think 70% is reasonable. This is probably in place to avoid splitting the league in half over a rule debate and causing the entire thing to fold.
- Payouts: I completely agree that toiletbowl bracketeers should not be taking any real money pots. But again; if this was stated in the rules before you joined...

[Pac_Eddy]

1. I have a couple leagues that don't realign divisions. I have a couple that do. It's not that big of a deal either way but I prefer realigning randomly or alternating by best records.

2. I don't mind 70% to change rules - keeps the rules more static and that can be good. It is what it is.

3. Yeah, that's a terrible payout to give the consolation guy more money than 4th. Again though, not a big enough deal to get angry.

[bonscott]

Can't say much more on the fact that these should have been known ahead of time.

As to the actual issues:

1) I've been in leagues that realign divisions and those that don't. It honestly doesn't matter, who cares on this one.

2) All my leagues have a "super majority" for any rule changes. So in a 12 team league this is 8 of 12 need to vote yes to pass. 100% vote to pass if it's something after the season has started or to get something changed at the draft that normally you'd want to give teams a year to adjust (say a roster size change, scoring change, etc.) I honestly would hate to be in a league that only required a simple majority to pass something because it leads to more division in the league since half the owners can and will be pissed about something. I won't join a league that just has simple majority.

3) Toilet bowl....in my leagues it's all over the board. In my dynasty leagues the winner of the TB usually gets a compensatory/extra rookie pick. In my keeper league the winner gets the #1 pick next season. In my auction keeper league the TB winner gets their entry fee back. I don't think I'd really like the $$$ won to be more then one of the playoff teams, but there is nothing wrong with awarding $$$ as an incentive if there is no other incentive (like draft picks) to give.

[bubbamsu]

You're not crazy in your thinking about the consolation bracket winner.

However, I do have to nicely call you on calling it "small print". Unless it was actually small print, you just didn't read the entire rules and made assumptions. You did own it, but "a few of us didn't read the small print" is attempting to remove responsibility from yourself with an "everybody did it" defense and shift blame to the rules author.

Just own it, no big deal. I'd rather somebody fully own something than try to justify it, it rubs me the wrong way.

If there's been hearty debate, it likely won't change (but try proposing the change) and you'll have to deal with it or leave the league hopefully a little wiser in either scenario.

You are 100% correct that it is on me and I have owned my mistake of not reading all the bylaws and only skimming them. I will have to admit to being in too many leagues and I have not come seen where a worse team gets compensated with more cash then a better team when the final standings are determined.

The "fine Print" was an incorrect expression and it is ENTIRELY on ME that I joined the league with the rules in place and their were about 4 of us that did the same thing, from what people have admitted to so far on the discussion.

[Niceguy]

This is a 14 team league that was a start up last year, where a few of us including myself that did not read the small print in some of the rules. Most of the league bylaws/scoring are your average stuff, but 3 rules did not sit too well with me and a few other guys. So we waited until the off season to bring the discussions up and put them to a league vote. Which I believe is the right way and truly the only way to change rules. Here are the issues:

1. Division Realignment
We have 2 divisions of 7 and at the least, they should be randomly realigned, but they are not at the moment.

2. The current voting system has any rules change needs to be passed by 70% of the owners. In my opinion, majority rules(51%), and in case of a 7-7 tie, then the old rule would be kept intact. We are voting to improve/tweak the league, not change legislation.

3. Here is the big issue that I have. Currently the top 6 teams make the Championship Bracket. With Payouts for 1-4 and the 5th and 6th place team get nothing, which is fine. Teams 7-10 play for the Consolation Bracket, and this is where I have a problem. The winner of this gets more $$$$ then the 4th place finisher. Which to me is absolutely insane. No way should a team that finished lower should get more money then a team that finished better at the end of the season. This issue has been strongly debated between the two sides and to me this should not even be a point of contention. I have suggested give the 7th place winner a different pick, a few more FAB $ as a reward, but not real $.

With the 70 % voting measurement, I highly doubt that any of these issues will pass.

Am I crazy in my thinking? Thoughts? I would like others to chime in, please.

1. In the leagues where I'm commish we realign based on points scored each year. So in a ten team league the two divisions break down like this. Division A, 1, 4, 5, 8, 9. Division B, 2, 3, 6, 7, 10. That is the highest scoring team from the previous year ends up in the division with the 4th, 5th, 8th and 9th highest scoring teams. This is a better system than random re-seeding.

2. You should have read this beforehand.

3. You're right that this is total BS. I hope you can get it changed but as others have said, the onus is on you and the others for having not read the "small print" up front.

Best of luck on this stuff! Let us know how it goes.