More 2020 Hype: "If You Need A RB or WR, this is the draft for you."

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Re: More 2020 Hype: "If You Need A RB or WR, this is the draft for you."

Postby Hottoddies » Fri Feb 14, 2020 3:20 pm

alewilliam789 wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 2:21 pm
Ooh if that’s the case that makes Taylor 1.01 a very nice and easy choice for me. Boys I’m starting to fall off the Swift bandwagon. Good player, but I think he’s smaller than I thought he was and takes a lot of big hits. Great receiver, above average vision, but nothing close to Taylor. My top backs are like this:

Tier 1:
Jonathan Taylor
J.K. Dobbins

Tier 2:
D’Andre Swift

Tier 3:
Akers
CEH

Tier 4:
Eno Benjamin
A bunch of nobodies
If his listed weight is correct he has a greater BMI than both Taylor and Dobbins. And for those thinking that CEH is too small, he has a greater BMI than those two as well.
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Re: More 2020 Hype: "If You Need A RB or WR, this is the draft for you."

Postby nathanq42 » Fri Feb 14, 2020 3:39 pm

Hottoddies wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 3:20 pm
alewilliam789 wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 2:21 pm
Ooh if that’s the case that makes Taylor 1.01 a very nice and easy choice for me. Boys I’m starting to fall off the Swift bandwagon. Good player, but I think he’s smaller than I thought he was and takes a lot of big hits. Great receiver, above average vision, but nothing close to Taylor. My top backs are like this:

Tier 1:
Jonathan Taylor
J.K. Dobbins

Tier 2:
D’Andre Swift

Tier 3:
Akers
CEH

Tier 4:
Eno Benjamin
A bunch of nobodies
If his listed weight is correct he has a greater BMI than both Taylor and Dobbins. And for those thinking that CEH is too small, he has a greater BMI than those two as well.
Little bowling balls those two I reckon. I also never fully understand the focus on combine weight/speed/any other measurements. If you think CMC still weighs 205 lbs you nuts. Its 1 or two measurements at a single point in time. people get slower/faster/bigger/smaller all the time. Someone might be dinged up or not running well for those 20 minutes. If you see jeudy/lamb pulling away from people on the field, but they run a 4.5-4.55 at the combine is that really going to make you question their speed?
12 Team 20 man roster 4 reserve slots 1 ppr .2 points per carry
Garbage
1QB 2RB 3WR 1TE 1WR/RB/TE 1K 1DEF
QB Jimmy Garoppolo, Jared Goff, Nick Foles, Gardner Minshew
RB Rashaad Penny, Austin Ekeler, Royce Freeman, Jerrick McKinnon, Justice Hill
WR Mike Evans, Odell Beckham Junior, DJ Moore, Dede Westbrook, Parris Campbell, Preston Williams, Zach Parscal, James Washington, Hakeem Butler
TE TJ Hockenson, Darren Waller, Jacob Hollister

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1.01, 1.04, 1.05, 1.07, 1.09
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Re: More 2020 Hype: "If You Need A RB or WR, this is the draft for you."

Postby Dynasty DeLorean » Fri Feb 14, 2020 3:54 pm

nathanq42 wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 3:39 pm
I also never fully understand the focus on combine weight/speed/any other measurements.
It's extremely important, people just don't understand what they're looking for. BMI is a factor but typically not a big one. I posted a long time ago a slew of great players with below average bmi. Jamaal Charles, Chris Johnson, etc, had BMI's that were in the toilet... I think BMI is more important when trying to figure out which later round rb could hit, i don't really want to take my chances on a late-round twig rb. I mean, it happens (Lindsay for instance) but it seems much rarer.

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Re: More 2020 Hype: "If You Need A RB or WR, this is the draft for you."

Postby Cameron Giles » Fri Feb 14, 2020 4:59 pm

alewilliam789 wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 2:21 pm
Ooh if that’s the case that makes Taylor 1.01 a very nice and easy choice for me. Boys I’m starting to fall off the Swift bandwagon. Good player, but I think he’s smaller than I thought he was and takes a lot of big hits. Great receiver, above average vision, but nothing close to Taylor. My top backs are like this:

Tier 1:
Jonathan Taylor
J.K. Dobbins

Tier 2:
D’Andre Swift

Tier 3:
Akers
CEH

Tier 4:
Eno Benjamin
A bunch of nobodies
Moss?

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Re: More 2020 Hype: "If You Need A RB or WR, this is the draft for you."

Postby bjd5211 » Fri Feb 14, 2020 5:22 pm

I would say Moss certainly deserves consideration as around RB5 in this class. I would have him over Eno certainly.

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Re: More 2020 Hype: "If You Need A RB or WR, this is the draft for you."

Postby FantasyFreak » Fri Feb 14, 2020 5:28 pm

bjd5211 wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 5:22 pm
I would say Moss certainly deserves consideration as around RB5 in this class. I would have him over Eno certainly.
Yeah, Benjamin does nothing for me. He's not talented or big enough IMO.
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Re: More 2020 Hype: "If You Need A RB or WR, this is the draft for you."

Postby bjd5211 » Fri Feb 14, 2020 5:32 pm

FantasyFreak wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 5:28 pm
bjd5211 wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 5:22 pm
I would say Moss certainly deserves consideration as around RB5 in this class. I would have him over Eno certainly.
Yeah, Benjamin does nothing for me. He's not talented or big enough IMO.
Best case scenario he's Tarik Cohen, who certainly carries value, but I would rather take a bigger swing on a more consistent contributer and risk striking out. You have to take some risks in rookie drafts in order to see the biggest rewards.

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Re: More 2020 Hype: "If You Need A RB or WR, this is the draft for you."

Postby cantguardjake » Fri Feb 14, 2020 5:40 pm

Lord_Varys wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 1:56 pm
cantguardjake wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 1:13 pm
I still don’t get the Akers love. He runs stiff and doesn’t sink his hips at all. IMO he doesn’t look like he really has a feel for the position, people calling him a top 3 sleeper is as strange as Moss for me.

CEH is an infinitely better running back. Only question mark I have is his pass protection which I haven’t seen much of, but he’s the whole package. I think he’ll be drafted well before Akers.
Akers can cut and explode very well. He might be a little late to process the right read at times I think, but he moves very well. And he's a great receiver.

CEH "infinitely better"? He's half the athlete.
I wouldn’t say half the athlete, CEH will test adequately and I recon he’ll have an impressive 10 yard split.

He has quick feet like Lindsey and Singletary and he’s a genuine miss match on linebackers out of the backfield, particularly on those angle routes he runs.

Akers is ok, I just think CEH will be a better player. Akers reminds me of Mont, sub 5 yard career ypc in college but everyone says it’s the line because he has a nice cut in the open field. Not many players make it with a ypc that poor in college, the good players find a way to make it happen despite the line (see Singletary).

I’m looking forward to Mikes running back review this year (assuming he does one).

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Re: More 2020 Hype: "If You Need A RB or WR, this is the draft for you."

Postby nathanq42 » Fri Feb 14, 2020 6:03 pm

cantguardjake wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 5:40 pm
Lord_Varys wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 1:56 pm
cantguardjake wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 1:13 pm
I still don’t get the Akers love. He runs stiff and doesn’t sink his hips at all. IMO he doesn’t look like he really has a feel for the position, people calling him a top 3 sleeper is as strange as Moss for me.

CEH is an infinitely better running back. Only question mark I have is his pass protection which I haven’t seen much of, but he’s the whole package. I think he’ll be drafted well before Akers.
Akers can cut and explode very well. He might be a little late to process the right read at times I think, but he moves very well. And he's a great receiver.

CEH "infinitely better"? He's half the athlete.
I wouldn’t say half the athlete, CEH will test adequately and I recon he’ll have an impressive 10 yard split.

He has quick feet like Lindsey and Singletary and he’s a genuine miss match on linebackers out of the backfield, particularly on those angle routes he runs.

Akers is ok, I just think CEH will be a better player. Akers reminds me of Mont, sub 5 yard career ypc in college but everyone says it’s the line because he has a nice cut in the open field. Not many players make it with a ypc that poor in college, the good players find a way to make it happen despite the line (see Singletary).

I’m looking forward to Mikes running back review this year (assuming he does one).
But how many run behind a consistent bottom 5 line out of 130 teams that were looked at?
12 Team 20 man roster 4 reserve slots 1 ppr .2 points per carry
Garbage
1QB 2RB 3WR 1TE 1WR/RB/TE 1K 1DEF
QB Jimmy Garoppolo, Jared Goff, Nick Foles, Gardner Minshew
RB Rashaad Penny, Austin Ekeler, Royce Freeman, Jerrick McKinnon, Justice Hill
WR Mike Evans, Odell Beckham Junior, DJ Moore, Dede Westbrook, Parris Campbell, Preston Williams, Zach Parscal, James Washington, Hakeem Butler
TE TJ Hockenson, Darren Waller, Jacob Hollister

Picks
1.01, 1.04, 1.05, 1.07, 1.09
2 2021 firsts (both mid to late)

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Re: More 2020 Hype: "If You Need A RB or WR, this is the draft for you."

Postby FantasyFreak » Fri Feb 14, 2020 6:06 pm

bjd5211 wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 5:32 pm
FantasyFreak wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 5:28 pm
bjd5211 wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 5:22 pm
I would say Moss certainly deserves consideration as around RB5 in this class. I would have him over Eno certainly.
Yeah, Benjamin does nothing for me. He's not talented or big enough IMO.
Best case scenario he's Tarik Cohen, who certainly carries value, but I would rather take a bigger swing on a more consistent contributer and risk striking out. You have to take some risks in rookie drafts in order to see the biggest rewards.
Cohen seems much faster, though. I understand what you are getting at, though. I agree.
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Record: 28-5 Division Champ/League High Scorer/Runner Up

Wentz, Stafford. Driskel
Chubb, Cook, Carson, Breida, Ekeler, Penny, James White, Sproles
Evans, Sutton, Woods, Agholor, Sanu, Higgins, D Robinson, T Taylor
Kittle, Olsen, McDonald, Ian Thomas, Clay

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Re: More 2020 Hype: "If You Need A RB or WR, this is the draft for you."

Postby bjd5211 » Fri Feb 14, 2020 6:53 pm

FantasyFreak wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 6:06 pm
bjd5211 wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 5:32 pm
FantasyFreak wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 5:28 pm


Yeah, Benjamin does nothing for me. He's not talented or big enough IMO.
Best case scenario he's Tarik Cohen, who certainly carries value, but I would rather take a bigger swing on a more consistent contributer and risk striking out. You have to take some risks in rookie drafts in order to see the biggest rewards.
Cohen seems much faster, though. I understand what you are getting at, though. I agree.
Not necessarily comparing them apples to apples, just level of fantasy production, which is ultimately what we are here to talk about.

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Re: More 2020 Hype: "If You Need A RB or WR, this is the draft for you."

Postby Zacsby » Fri Feb 14, 2020 8:44 pm

Akers looks nothing like Monty. So much more explosive. I'm not saying he's a lock to be a stud. If it weren't for contact balance Monty would have looked like JAG to me. Mostly just saying you could do much worse looking for upside at RB in the mid-late 1st.
24 Tm 2 Copy PPR - QB, RB (2), WR (2), TE, FLX (2)
QB - Cousins, Jimmy G
RB - Hunt, Guice, Breida, Gallman
WR - Godwin, Golladay, Kirk, M-Will, Davis
TE - Andrews, Herndon, Hurst
20 Picks - 1.01, 1.02, 1.22, 1.24, 2.01, 2.02, 2.23

14 Tm PPR - QB, RB (2), WR (2), TE, FLX (2)
QB - Josh Allen, Lock, Foles
RB - Chubb, Rojo, Justice, Samuels, Love, Laird
WR - Juju, DJM, Sutton, Mecole, Diontae
TE - Hock, Jonnu, Ian Thomas
20 Picks - 1.03, 2.03, 3.03, 4.03

12 Tm SF PPR - QB, RB (2), WR (2), TE, FLX (2) SF
QB - Lamar, Brees, Daniel Jones, Taysom, Stidham
RB - CMC, AJ, Drake, Hunt, Cohen, AP
WR - Golladay, Boyd, Landry, Edelman, Mecole
TE - Hock, Higbee, Rudolph, Oliver

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Re: More 2020 Hype: "If You Need A RB or WR, this is the draft for you."

Postby FantasyFreak » Fri Feb 14, 2020 9:00 pm

Zacsby wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 8:44 pm
Akers looks nothing like Monty. So much more explosive. I'm not saying he's a lock to be a stud. If it weren't for contact balance Monty would have looked like JAG to me. Mostly just saying you could do much worse looking for upside at RB in the mid-late 1st.
I think he's talking about the excuses more than the players attributes. Akers IS much more explosive. I think he's a committee back, myself, though. In the NFL, guys need to pass protect, and do other things off the ball well. We've seen what happened to guys like Penny and Rojo with that stuff. In the NFL, there is so much more expected from a RB than in college. I see Akers as a project player for an NFL team. He isn't touching my top 3 RB's. I like him as a later pick, but not with any premium draft capital. Too much refined talent at the WR and RB position.
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Record: 28-5 Division Champ/League High Scorer/Runner Up

Wentz, Stafford. Driskel
Chubb, Cook, Carson, Breida, Ekeler, Penny, James White, Sproles
Evans, Sutton, Woods, Agholor, Sanu, Higgins, D Robinson, T Taylor
Kittle, Olsen, McDonald, Ian Thomas, Clay

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Re: More 2020 Hype: "If You Need A RB or WR, this is the draft for you."

Postby cantguardjake » Fri Feb 14, 2020 9:42 pm

FantasyFreak wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 9:00 pm
Zacsby wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 8:44 pm
Akers looks nothing like Monty. So much more explosive. I'm not saying he's a lock to be a stud. If it weren't for contact balance Monty would have looked like JAG to me. Mostly just saying you could do much worse looking for upside at RB in the mid-late 1st.
I think he's talking about the excuses more than the players attributes. Akers IS much more explosive. I think he's a committee back, myself, though. In the NFL, guys need to pass protect, and do other things off the ball well. We've seen what happened to guys like Penny and Rojo with that stuff. In the NFL, there is so much more expected from a RB than in college. I see Akers as a project player for an NFL team. He isn't touching my top 3 RB's. I like him as a later pick, but not with any premium draft capital. Too much refined talent at the WR and RB position.
Yep you’re right, I was talking excuses. He’s clearly a better athlete than Mont (which isn’t hard to be fair).

He’s ok, but I wouldn’t feel comfortable at this stage of the process spending a “top tier running back” pick on him in a 1QB league, but I guess we’ll see what draft capital he ends up with.

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Re: More 2020 Hype: "If You Need A RB or WR, this is the draft for you."

Postby Factory of Sadness » Fri Feb 14, 2020 9:53 pm

RB scouting is such a wonderfully messy business as it is near impossible to separate back from scheme and O-line- just like it is on Sundays.

The only thing I am sure about in my own mind is that we don't weight interior line play enough when assessing college backs. Anyone who is going to play on Sundays can see an Edge flash as he clears a blocker and put a move on him in space. It won't always work, but give an NFL talent a line of sight and a couple of yards of space and he's going to look great. I missed horribly on Abdullah for this reason. He kept killing guys in this situation and I kept being impressed. Then the Vikings ran him into a muddy interior and he had nothing. Unless the back is lucky enough to play in a superior scheme (Shanahan/Kubiak/Payton/Reid etc) or behind a top flight line, then being able to dead-leg a tackler the way that Swift does five times a game is just going to be an occasional bonus.

Better tape-heads than me will be able to see which back in a good scheme is being flattered. I can't tell. I know Taylor, Dobbins and Swift get good running lanes and they look brilliant with them. I have no insight at all as to whether they are getting full value from them. I love Waldman's tape sessions, but RB play is so cumulative and so much about beating the odds, rather than winning every time, that watching him click through 3 reps 10 times doesn't help me.

I can't watch a guy like Akers take a bad decision or be indecisive in the hole and see that as his fault, when the damned hole wasn't there the last four times they ran that play. So I don't think I can get a read on the backs in bad situations either. The one thing I feel confident in saying is that what a lot of you call instincts is not that at all. It's decision-making. Incredibly quick, reactive decision-making that happens so fast based off tiny cues that the back might not always know why they did what they did, but decision making that is coached, practiced and improves over time. A guy like Ballage doesn't have bad instincts. He just can't make NFL decisions. Why I think this matters is that if you are continually asked to make decisions and there are usually one or two right answers each time, you will make good choices, feel confident, react quickly and show your best self as a runner. If you keep making choices and there are no bad decisions then you lose confidence, have to gamble, are slow to react.

Very long-winded and deserving a TLDR. In short, I think any attempt to judge a back's decision making behind a bad interior line is going to fail. If a guy like Akers was a highly touted recruit, if he looks good in space, if he checks the athleticism box and if an NFL team decides he can play, then I am not going to ding him for not showing mythical Jedi instincts to find holes that were rarely there. If you think Akers is stiff, then ding him for that. If you think that Akers doesn't pull through contact as well as he should for a back of his size, ding him for that. If you see him fail to set up second level guys when he has time to do so, ding him for that. Don't ding him because you think that a real talent would have averaged more PPC, or because you think you've seen a lack of instincts...


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