Did Jesus Christ die and rise rom the dead?

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Did Jesus Christ die and rise rom the dead?

Postby slacker » Sat Sep 23, 2017 7:12 am

If you don't know the background of this post I was on a thread about Sammy Watkins and the topic turned to his belief that the earth was flat. Some immediately started to equate the belief that the earth is flat to Christianity, to which I offered this rebuttal. Got a few compliments and a few complaints about it being off topic, so I decided to post it here for any who would like to rebut me but don't want to keep the original thread from going off topic.

Nah, It's just that with religious atheism on the rise most people don't know what the evidence is. The cornerstone of Christianity is the belief that Jesus Christ did and rose from the dead. If it did not happen, then Christianity is false, but if it did happen then Christianity is true. Even secular historians of the day Josephus and Tacitus testify that Jesus Christ existed and made it to the cross, with Josephus going so far as to say He was seen alive three days later. Something happened that caused the disciples to go from cowering in a room wondering if they would be the next crucified to guys who transformed the world. Something caused the church to come into existence. Something caused Paul, who wrote half the New Testament, to go from persecuting the church to becoming a Christian several years after the resurrection. What really happened? I believe that the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ is the only thing that fits the known evidence, but if you guys can tell me what really happened I'll abandon my faith today. :-)
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Re: Did Jesus Christ die and rise rom the dead?

Postby dynastyninja » Sat Sep 23, 2017 7:41 am

Can we just acknowledge that nobody will actually changed their beliefs here and forego the whole discussion?

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Re: Did Jesus Christ die and rise rom the dead?

Postby slacker » Sat Sep 23, 2017 9:12 am

dynastyninja wrote:
Sat Sep 23, 2017 7:41 am
Can we just acknowledge that nobody will actually changed their beliefs here and forego the whole discussion?
Just because you don't want to have the discussion doesn't mean others don't. If you didn't want to have the discussion then why come here and make a post?
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Re: Did Jesus Christ die and rise rom the dead?

Postby Tsunami » Sat Sep 23, 2017 9:37 am

slacker wrote:
Sat Sep 23, 2017 7:12 am
Nah, It's just that with religious atheism on the rise most people don't know what the evidence is. The cornerstone of Christianity is the belief that Jesus Christ did and rose from the dead. If it did not happen, then Christianity is false, but if it did happen then Christianity is true. Even secular historians of the day Josephus and Tacitus testify that Jesus Christ existed and made it to the cross, with Josephus going so far as to say He was seen alive three days later. Something happened that caused the disciples to go from cowering in a room wondering if they would be the next crucified to guys who transformed the world. Something caused the church to come into existence. Something caused Paul, who wrote half the New Testament, to go from persecuting the church to becoming a Christian several years after the resurrection. What really happened? I believe that the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ is the only thing that fits the known evidence, but if you guys can tell me what really happened I'll abandon my faith today. :-)
That isn't the only time it has happened. It happened with Muhammad. It happened with Buddha. It happened with Zeus and Thor and Jupiter and Shiva. It is happening right now on a smaller scale with Joseph Smith and L. Ron Hubbard. How many of these religions do you think were founded on actual supernatural events? Is there a reason you have faith in the one that you believe other than that you were born to it or into a culture which supports that belief?

Josephus and Tacitus referred to Jesus as a historical figure some 60-80 years after he supposedly was crucified. There is no eyewitness record or other evidence of the existence of Jesus outside of the Bible (and even the Gospels likely weren't written by eyewitnesses). Scholars believe he probably existed simply because it is the most likely explanation - it is easier for a myth to grow out of a real event than from a work of fiction, although both can certainly happen. Paul Bunyan and John Henry were probably based on real people, and their feats were embellished to become supernatural. There is not enough evidence to even be 100% sure Jesus is a real person, much less to support any of the supernatural events associated with his story, but since his human existence isn't an extraordinary claim it is reasonable to say it is at least plausible. The other parts of Christianity, not so much.

The myth of Jesus has adopted elements of religions that existed before Christianity. The Egyptian god Horus was the son of the god Osiris, was born to a virgin, his birth was celebrated at the winter solstice, he was baptized at age 30, his baptizer was beheaded, he walked on water, he healed the sick and cured the blind, he was crucified and resurrected after 3 days. Similar myths are attributed to Attis of Phyrgia, Zoroaster, and many other pre-Christian deities. While Jesus the man may have existed, it's pretty obvious that these myths that existed before his life were later attributed to him. This is a more likely explanation to a rational person.

Why Jesus specifically? I don't know, anymore than you could tell me why Horus. But it's unlikely that it was because it really happened. Humans are superstitious by nature, and there was no science to explain things otherwise. I love how you say the truth of Christianity depends only on one event that is unfalsifiable, and you ignore the numerous other Biblical claims that were considered to be literal historical events a hundred years ago that are now ignored as parables, like the great flood and young earth creationism. How many times does a religion have to be wrong to cast doubt upon the other parts of the myth?

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Re: Did Jesus Christ die and rise rom the dead?

Postby skip » Sat Sep 23, 2017 9:54 am

Tsunami wrote:
Sat Sep 23, 2017 9:37 am
I love how you say the truth of Christianity depends only on one event that is unfalsifiable, and you ignore the numerous other Biblical claims that were considered to be literal historical events a hundred years ago that are now ignored as parables, like the great flood and young earth creationism. How many times does a religion have to be wrong to cast doubt upon the other parts of the myth?
I agree with dynastyninja that the discussion on forums is pointless because no one comes with an open mind, they come to argue and criticize. As such, I'm not going to take part in the debate but I will address a couple of things that you mention in here.

I am a young Earth creationist and believe absolutely in a global flood. Not only do I take those things on faith, but I also believe science supports such a view. So please do not act like believers only pick and choose the parts of the Bible that fit their beliefs.
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Re: Did Jesus Christ die and rise rom the dead?

Postby jeffster » Sat Sep 23, 2017 12:23 pm

I'm skeptical this stays positive and worth discussing, but I'll add to this conversation a mental tool that I find very helpful to use for myself, on all sorts of issues, which I think can apply here. Quite simply, whatever your belief is, ask yourself what it would take to falsify that belief. Think about it as honestly as you can, which can be difficult when it's a strongly-held belief.

If you can't come up with a practical answer, then you aren't actually seeking the truth.

The OP suggests his belief would be falsified if someone could come up with a story that explained the evidence besides the resurrection. I don't personally believe him, because it's super easy to come up with alternative explanations that aren't divine in nature. But hey, it's a start.

If you're a purely dogmatic individual, at least be honest about it. Too often people try to have it both ways, by pretending to be reasonable, truth-seeking individuals while actually being nothing of the sort. If that's not you, then try this exercise yourself, on any topic you hold dear. It's harder than it sounds, but it's good for you.

Also, religious atheism is an oxymoron. It ticks me off when people say that, because words have meanings. "Theism" comes from Greek and literally means the belief in a divine, supernatural power. "A-theism" literally means not the belief in divine, supernatural powers. So if religion means the belief and worship of a divine power, the statement becomes "belief and worship of a divine, supernatural power while not believing in a divine, supernatural power".

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Re: Did Jesus Christ die and rise rom the dead?

Postby Tsunami » Sat Sep 23, 2017 12:35 pm

jeffster wrote:
Sat Sep 23, 2017 12:23 pm
Also, religious atheism is an oxymoron. It ticks me off when people say that, because words have meanings. "Theism" comes from Greek and literally means the belief in a divine, supernatural power. "A-theism" literally means not the belief in divine, supernatural powers. So if religion means the belief and worship of a divine power, the statement becomes "belief and worship of a divine, supernatural power while not believing in a divine, supernatural power".
"Theos" means god, not belief in god. "A-theos" isn't "not belief", it is "not god". Atheism is often (but not always) the belief and assertion that there is no God. To me, some atheists are as irrationally religious as some Christians.

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Re: Did Jesus Christ die and rise rom the dead?

Postby lukkynumber13 » Sat Sep 23, 2017 1:26 pm

skip wrote:
Sat Sep 23, 2017 9:54 am
Tsunami wrote:
Sat Sep 23, 2017 9:37 am
I love how you say the truth of Christianity depends only on one event that is unfalsifiable, and you ignore the numerous other Biblical claims that were considered to be literal historical events a hundred years ago that are now ignored as parables, like the great flood and young earth creationism. How many times does a religion have to be wrong to cast doubt upon the other parts of the myth?
I agree with dynastyninja that the discussion on forums is pointless because no one comes with an open mind, they come to argue and criticize. As such, I'm not going to take part in the debate but I will address a couple of things that you mention in here.

I am a young Earth creationist and believe absolutely in a global flood. Not only do I take those things on faith, but I also believe science supports such a view. So please do not act like believers only pick and choose the parts of the Bible that fit their beliefs.
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Re: Did Jesus Christ die and rise rom the dead?

Postby Tsunami » Sat Sep 23, 2017 1:43 pm

skip wrote:
Sat Sep 23, 2017 9:54 am
Tsunami wrote:
Sat Sep 23, 2017 9:37 am
I love how you say the truth of Christianity depends only on one event that is unfalsifiable, and you ignore the numerous other Biblical claims that were considered to be literal historical events a hundred years ago that are now ignored as parables, like the great flood and young earth creationism. How many times does a religion have to be wrong to cast doubt upon the other parts of the myth?
I agree with dynastyninja that the discussion on forums is pointless because no one comes with an open mind, they come to argue and criticize. As such, I'm not going to take part in the debate but I will address a couple of things that you mention in here.

I am a young Earth creationist and believe absolutely in a global flood. Not only do I take those things on faith, but I also believe science supports such a view. So please do not act like believers only pick and choose the parts of the Bible that fit their beliefs.
You'd rather pick and choose the parts of science that fit your beliefs? That's not better lol. Any school kid can tell you how science disagrees with the flood and young earth creationism. This is probably why polls show that the belief that humans were created less than 10,000 years ago is down to 15% of the population. If you change your mind and want to participate in this debate I'll be happy to spell it out for you.

Besides this, have you read Deuteronomy lately? If you didn't pick and choose parts of the Bible to follow you'd be living like the Amish or those people who handle snakes. Get real.

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Re: Did Jesus Christ die and rise rom the dead?

Postby jeffster » Sat Sep 23, 2017 3:10 pm

Tsunami wrote:
Sat Sep 23, 2017 12:35 pm
jeffster wrote:
Sat Sep 23, 2017 12:23 pm
Also, religious atheism is an oxymoron. It ticks me off when people say that, because words have meanings. "Theism" comes from Greek and literally means the belief in a divine, supernatural power. "A-theism" literally means not the belief in divine, supernatural powers. So if religion means the belief and worship of a divine power, the statement becomes "belief and worship of a divine, supernatural power while not believing in a divine, supernatural power".
"Theos" means god, not belief in god. "A-theos" isn't "not belief", it is "not god". Atheism is often (but not always) the belief and assertion that there is no God. To me, some atheists are as irrationally religious as some Christians.
Not actually sure what you mean. Theism means the belief in god or god's. If I had said theos, okay.

And yes, I'm absolutely certain some atheists have put as little thought into their beliefs as some theists, which is a shame either way. But an atheist can't be religious, because the words are mutually exclusive.

Unless you're just trying to say "theism" isn't itself a Greek word, which I believe I would agree with. Though I'm no expert in Greek.

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Re: Did Jesus Christ die and rise rom the dead?

Postby Tsunami » Sat Sep 23, 2017 3:27 pm

jeffster wrote:
Sat Sep 23, 2017 3:10 pm
Tsunami wrote:
Sat Sep 23, 2017 12:35 pm
jeffster wrote:
Sat Sep 23, 2017 12:23 pm
Also, religious atheism is an oxymoron. It ticks me off when people say that, because words have meanings. "Theism" comes from Greek and literally means the belief in a divine, supernatural power. "A-theism" literally means not the belief in divine, supernatural powers. So if religion means the belief and worship of a divine power, the statement becomes "belief and worship of a divine, supernatural power while not believing in a divine, supernatural power".
"Theos" means god, not belief in god. "A-theos" isn't "not belief", it is "not god". Atheism is often (but not always) the belief and assertion that there is no God. To me, some atheists are as irrationally religious as some Christians.
Not actually sure what you mean. Theism means the belief in god or god's. If I had said theos, okay.

And yes, I'm absolutely certain some atheists have put as little thought into their beliefs as some theists, which is a shame either way. But an atheist can't be religious, because the words are mutually exclusive.

Unless you're just trying to say "theism" isn't itself a Greek word, which I believe I would agree with. Though I'm no expert in Greek.
I've had Christians tell me they are not religious, they just have a relationship with Jesus. I don't know why people get hung up on being labeled but get over it. Atheism is a religion, just like hating Muslims is racist. Sure, that's not exactly the original meaning of the word, but it's close enough for communication, and there's not a better word.

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Re: Did Jesus Christ die and rise rom the dead?

Postby jeffster » Sun Sep 24, 2017 12:24 am

Tsunami wrote:
Sat Sep 23, 2017 3:27 pm

I've had Christians tell me they are not religious, they just have a relationship with Jesus. I don't know why people get hung up on being labeled but get over it. Atheism is a religion, just like hating Muslims is racist. Sure, that's not exactly the original meaning of the word, but it's close enough for communication, and there's not a better word.
What a strange thing, to assert without support that being not religious is a religion, punctuated by "get over it" . Anyway, if that's the bar then I can do that too:

Atheism isn't a religion and it's silly to say it is.

I guess we're done with this thread! Went about as well as could be expected.

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Re: Did Jesus Christ die and rise rom the dead?

Postby Tsunami » Sun Sep 24, 2017 4:23 am

Yeah it's funny that the person who started the thread didn't show up. Maybe my first post was convincing enough :)

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Re: Did Jesus Christ die and rise rom the dead?

Postby jeffster » Sun Sep 24, 2017 5:59 am

Tsunami wrote:
Sun Sep 24, 2017 4:23 am
Yeah it's funny that the person who started the thread didn't show up. Maybe my first post was convincing enough :)
I thought it was a pretty good post. Disappointed the OP abandoned us.

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Re: Did Jesus Christ die and rise rom the dead?

Postby slacker » Sun Sep 24, 2017 8:43 am

Tsunami wrote:
Sat Sep 23, 2017 9:37 am
slacker wrote:
Sat Sep 23, 2017 7:12 am
Nah, It's just that with religious atheism on the rise most people don't know what the evidence is. The cornerstone of Christianity is the belief that Jesus Christ did and rose from the dead. If it did not happen, then Christianity is false, but if it did happen then Christianity is true. Even secular historians of the day Josephus and Tacitus testify that Jesus Christ existed and made it to the cross, with Josephus going so far as to say He was seen alive three days later. Something happened that caused the disciples to go from cowering in a room wondering if they would be the next crucified to guys who transformed the world. Something caused the church to come into existence. Something caused Paul, who wrote half the New Testament, to go from persecuting the church to becoming a Christian several years after the resurrection. What really happened? I believe that the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ is the only thing that fits the known evidence, but if you guys can tell me what really happened I'll abandon my faith today. :-)
That isn't the only time it has happened. It happened with Muhammad. It happened with Buddha. It happened with Zeus and Thor and Jupiter and Shiva. It is happening right now on a smaller scale with Joseph Smith and L. Ron Hubbard. How many of these religions do you think were founded on actual supernatural events? Is there a reason you have faith in the one that you believe other than that you were born to it or into a culture which supports that belief?

Josephus and Tacitus referred to Jesus as a historical figure some 60-80 years after he supposedly was crucified. There is no eyewitness record or other evidence of the existence of Jesus outside of the Bible (and even the Gospels likely weren't written by eyewitnesses). Scholars believe he probably existed simply because it is the most likely explanation - it is easier for a myth to grow out of a real event than from a work of fiction, although both can certainly happen. Paul Bunyan and John Henry were probably based on real people, and their feats were embellished to become supernatural. There is not enough evidence to even be 100% sure Jesus is a real person, much less to support any of the supernatural events associated with his story, but since his human existence isn't an extraordinary claim it is reasonable to say it is at least plausible. The other parts of Christianity, not so much.

The myth of Jesus has adopted elements of religions that existed before Christianity. The Egyptian god Horus was the son of the god Osiris, was born to a virgin, his birth was celebrated at the winter solstice, he was baptized at age 30, his baptizer was beheaded, he walked on water, he healed the sick and cured the blind, he was crucified and resurrected after 3 days. Similar myths are attributed to Attis of Phyrgia, Zoroaster, and many other pre-Christian deities. While Jesus the man may have existed, it's pretty obvious that these myths that existed before his life were later attributed to him. This is a more likely explanation to a rational person.

Why Jesus specifically? I don't know, anymore than you could tell me why Horus. But it's unlikely that it was because it really happened. Humans are superstitious by nature, and there was no science to explain things otherwise. I love how you say the truth of Christianity depends only on one event that is unfalsifiable, and you ignore the numerous other Biblical claims that were considered to be literal historical events a hundred years ago that are now ignored as parables, like the great flood and young earth creationism. How many times does a religion have to be wrong to cast doubt upon the other parts of the myth?
Sorry for the delay in responding. It is a scorcher here in Michigan and I took my kid to the beach, then on to date night with the wife. Lets start with Horus. The religious athiest claim that Jesus' life was patterned after Horus is largely a modern day fabrication.

Virgin Birth - No where in Egyptology does it claim Horus was born of a virgin. As a matter of fact it claims just the opposite. That his mother used her god powers to temporarily resurrect his father from the dead so she could have sex with him and conceive Horus. She had to create a penis for him out of gold, but as the story is told, it was by no means a virgin birth.

Dec. 25th - It is true that Horus is said to have been born on the winter solstice, but Christians didn't celebrate Jesus' birth on Dec. 25th until long after the crucifixion. There is no record in early church writings of Christians celebrating his birth at all. The first known celebration of Dec. 25th as Christ's birthday was in 336 AD.

He was baptized and his baptizer was beheaded - Much of the modern day myth of the Horus/Jesus parallels is based on the work of a 19th century poet and amature egyptologist named Gerald Massey including this one. Massey claimed that Horus was baptised by Anup the Baptiser who was later beheaded. There is no Anup the Baptiser in Egyptology and needless to say if he did not exist, he could not have been beheaded. Massey invented it out of thin air.

He healed the sick and walked on water - In Egyptology there is no account of him walking on water. Horus did perform miracles but there is no account of him ministering to the masses like Jesus did.

He was crucified and resurrected after 3 days - There is no account in Egyptology where Horus is crucified. There are some accounts where he eventually merges with the sun god and others where he is cast into the water in pieces, but nothing of a crucifixion.

There is an intentional effort by religious athiesm to edit ancient myths after the fact so that they can claim the well documented depiction of Christ was based on earlier myths, but this is religiously motivated, intellectually dishonest, and does not survive scrutiny. Same goes for Zoroaster and Attis of Phrygia.

Josephus and Tacitus referred to Jesus as a historical figure some 60-80 years after he supposedly was crucified. - This criticism can be applied to to Tacitus, but not Josephus. He was a Jew born in Jerusalem in AD 37 - 38, just a few years after the crucifixion. He was well positioned to know eyewitnesses of Jesus and the crucifixion as well as the doctrines of the early church. He writes that the Christians believed Jesus to be their God so this belief would have had to have been in place very early on in the church, say 15 - 20 years after the resurrection. Not enough time for the "Jesus was a good guy who got a promotion to God" theory. Josephus may not have written about Christianity til much later but his ability get an account from eyewitnesses was very real.

There is no eyewitness record or other evidence of the existence of Jesus outside of the Bible (and even the Gospels likely weren't written by eyewitnesses). - The Book of Acts is thought to have been written about AD 62 while Paul was still alive and before the destruction of the temple in AD 70. Acts was written by Luke and was the follow up to the Gospel of Luke which was probably written no later than 60 AD. Mark is generally considered considered to have predated Luke. Writings from the early church unanimously say Matthew's Gospel was written first with Eusebius giving a date of 41 AD. John was the last Gospel written and it is also believed to have been completed before the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. All of these dates are well within the lifespan of eyewitnesses.

So, I have mentined religious athiesm a number of times and I guess I should probably spell out what I mean by that. I spent almost a decade in Madison, WI and counted many athiests as friends, acquaintences, and co-workers. In talking with them I found the knee jerk reaction was to nit pick at any claim Christianity made but blindly belive any easily disprovable lie so long as it is pro athiest or anti Christian, such as Christ got a promotion at the council of Nicea, You can't trust the Bible, Swoon Theory, Etc. It finally dawned on me that the root of their athiesm was not intellectual, but emotional. Simply put, they were rooting to believe there is no God so they would blindly grasp on to any teaching that reinforced that belief no matter how dubious. In my admittedly subjective experience I found that about 90% of athiests were the religious kind and if you popped one myth, they just moved on the the next.
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