Petition Rotoworld/MFL For an EDGE Position IDP

General discussion and team advice concerning IDP Leagues.
User avatar
bruiser
Ring of Fame
Ring of Fame
Posts: 3158
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2015 11:37 am

Re: Petition Rotoworld/MFL For an EDGE Position IDP

Postby bruiser » Fri May 12, 2017 2:52 pm

breeze wrote:
Fri May 12, 2017 11:43 am
Everyone is upset with Mack being a LB and not giving any thought on how something like this effects IDP.
I'm not upset. Mack should be a linebacker. That's his position. Glad you got it right. Just before his 5th year option would cost the Raiders $2-3M extra as a DE. :D
Just a guy who loves fantasy football - specifically defense.

User avatar
FiremanEd
Legend
Legend
Posts: 6296
Joined: Sat Jul 06, 2013 12:51 pm

Re: Petition Rotoworld/MFL For an EDGE Position IDP

Postby FiremanEd » Fri May 12, 2017 3:44 pm

breeze wrote:
Fri May 12, 2017 11:43 am
Everyone is upset with Mack being a LB and not giving any thought on how something like this effects IDP.

Making an EDGE position not only is a blurry designation but it essentially doubles the DL pool therefore taking away value of all true DL. Double the supply mean way less demand. Not to mention 3-4 OLB play in coverage much more than 4-3 DEs so they get more tackles and rack up more tackles.

In PPG, only JPP and Wake scored more than Nick Perry and Markus Golden in 2016. In PPG, only 11 DL scored more than Shane Ray last year.

You are increasing the value of 3-4 OL but the damage you are doing is much greater. Making an EDGE decreases all elite DL values significantly and makes DL2/3 practically useless. Bud Dupree, Whitney Mercilus and Dee Ford are now superior assets to guys like Fletcher Cox, Cam Jordan and Leonard Williams.

All the EDGE position is going to do is kill the DL (pass rusher) position as a whole. Doubling the player pool of any position is a disastrous idea.

This is scary similar to changing RB to "Guy that sometimes carries the ball" and it will include all QBs that run over 150 per year as well. You essentially give massive value to guys that didn't have it before while significantly decreasing players that did and increasing supply without changing demand.

I cannot stress how much this is a bad idea for IDP. We need to look at all the factors, not just "I have Khalil Mack and his value went down. I want whatever is best for me!"
Completely agree, and even better outlined than I could have hoped. My initial reaction was just to ignore the thread given it is always the same tune, but glad I checked in to support this.

As for 3-4 OLB value, why don't you change your scoring to make it work? QB Hits, TFL, and Sack scoring relative to Tackles can make a world of difference and your Pass Rushers valuable. Sounds like just a commissioner / league issue, not the system itself.

User avatar
bruiser
Ring of Fame
Ring of Fame
Posts: 3158
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2015 11:37 am

Re: Petition Rotoworld/MFL For an EDGE Position IDP

Postby bruiser » Fri May 12, 2017 5:17 pm

FiremanEd wrote:
Fri May 12, 2017 3:44 pm
As for 3-4 OLB value, why don't you change your scoring to make it work? QB Hits, TFL, and Sack scoring relative to Tackles can make a world of difference and your Pass Rushers valuable. Sounds like just a commissioner / league issue, not the system itself.
This is the better explanation. Making an EDGE position would only affect DE values in certain formats. Fix IDP formats, then worry about player positions.
Just a guy who loves fantasy football - specifically defense.

User avatar
Oslo Oildrillers
Practice Squad
Practice Squad
Posts: 181
Joined: Sun May 18, 2014 3:16 am

Re: Petition Rotoworld/MFL For an EDGE Position IDP

Postby Oslo Oildrillers » Fri May 12, 2017 6:58 pm

breeze wrote:
Fri May 12, 2017 1:23 pm
The Red Rooster wrote:
Fri May 12, 2017 12:24 pm
Why not just have LB, DE, DT and EDGE designations with multiple spots for each in starting lineup? I don't see that as devaluing it to the extent you are mentioning...but, I have not given it the thought that you have. Most OLB's would likely be listed as LB/EDGE where as most DE's would probably be listed as DE/EDGE.

Or would this not work?
I think it would work but all you are doing is adding 3-4 OLB spots to everyone's lineup. The reason some people want EDGE is so they can play Mack/Beasley/Clowney/etc at DL eventhough they are technically LBs. They want personal benefit, not more lineup slots.
I've seen some IDP writers speak out against EDGE on twitter lately and I find it frustrating. You're looking at this the wrong way and it is negative for the future of IDP...let me explain.

I'm in leagues that manually redesignate pass-rushing OLBs as DL, what this causes is a situation similar to the one you explain where true DLs are devalued and guys like Golden and Mercilus become top players. DL becomes ridiculously deep unless you increase the starting position requirements greatly. It also makes LBs more valuable since the LB3-6 range loses a lot of players to DL. If MFL simply made a change where DE and pass-rushing OLBs were designated as EDGE it would be a bad move.

But let's take a step back. I think we all agree that the way we currently handle pass-rushing OLBs does not reflect their on-field value. So we all can agree that there is a problem. However, it is not fair against DE/DLs to classify OLBs as DL. Simply making a scoring change in order to boost big play for LB can make the situation better, but it's not a perfect fix. Leagues that value tackles are fun and gives less weekly variance so devaluing tackles is not an optimal solution, and any big play boost you make to pass-rushing OLBs will also boost all other LBs.

What I'm advocating for is to find a new solution that gives us options in how we handle IDPs. By keeping DT, DE, LB and adding a separate LB designation for pass-rushing OLBs (e.g. ELB) it would give us freedom and control in order to handle pass-rushing OLBs. One league could keep them as LBs and do things the exact same way they do today, another league could bunch them together with DE, but there are also other options:

One option would be to have 4 FLEX LB/ELB spots instead of 3 LB spots with premium scoring for ELB in order to fine-tune the scoring between LB and ELB. Another option would be to have 1 DT, 3 FLEX DE/ELB spots with slightly higher scoring for DE and premium scoring for DT. There could be many ways to tune the scoring and position requirements in order to properly value the importance of pass-rushing OLBs, all we're looking for is for MFL to give us options!! Right now, we're all forced to use the default system that greatly devalues pass-rushing OLBs, a system that I think we can all agree is not perfect, and I can't understand how anyone is against having freedom and options in terms of how they build their IDP leagues...?!? :?:
Zealots 2 (8-5, 2016 champion)
Zealots 43 (10-3)
Zealots DEV-1 (8-5, 2016 champion)
Zealots REL-1 (13-1)
Paragon Pigskin (10-4)
Paragon Doppelgänger (2-11)
Paragon Blue Chip (6-7)
Paragon Divide et Impera
Paragon Go Deep
Backyard Brawl IDP (11-2, 2016 champion)
Black (10-3, 2016 champion)
The Dark Arts Dynasty League
The Singularity
Blue Label (5-8)
The Bull Horn Super Flex
Gangland (7-5)

User avatar
bruiser
Ring of Fame
Ring of Fame
Posts: 3158
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2015 11:37 am

Re: Petition Rotoworld/MFL For an EDGE Position IDP

Postby bruiser » Fri May 12, 2017 7:10 pm

The leagues I run have no problem with this position issue you are all talking about. Von Miller and Justin Houston have been the LB1 in these leagues. Fix your format. That's the problem.
Just a guy who loves fantasy football - specifically defense.

User avatar
Oslo Oildrillers
Practice Squad
Practice Squad
Posts: 181
Joined: Sun May 18, 2014 3:16 am

Re: Petition Rotoworld/MFL For an EDGE Position IDP

Postby Oslo Oildrillers » Fri May 12, 2017 7:18 pm

breeze wrote:
Fri May 12, 2017 1:23 pm
The Red Rooster wrote:
Fri May 12, 2017 12:24 pm
Why not just have LB, DE, DT and EDGE designations with multiple spots for each in starting lineup? I don't see that as devaluing it to the extent you are mentioning...but, I have not given it the thought that you have. Most OLB's would likely be listed as LB/EDGE where as most DE's would probably be listed as DE/EDGE.

Or would this not work?
I think it would work but all you are doing is adding 3-4 OLB spots to everyone's lineup. The reason some people want EDGE is so they can play Mack/Beasley/Clowney/etc at DL eventhough they are technically LBs. They want personal benefit, not more lineup slots.
I also have to say that you're greatly simplifying the EDGE argument. It's not just selfish a-holes who want personal benefit... To most of us it is about trying to reflect real life value better and some of these players we're currently devaluing are some of the most exciting players to follow on the defensive side...I'd rather sit and cheer for Chandler Jones to make a sack instead of cheering for Paul Worrilow to jump on a pile 12 yards down the field.

Another aspect is that for draft and devy it would offer a better situation if the value of these players were not so tied down to landing spot. I mean, it's fun and all to play that game and to watch new IDP players make dumb rookie mistakes, but it would be a lot better for recruitment to IDP if it was more about evaluating talent and not primarily about trying to understand scheme and role.
Last edited by Oslo Oildrillers on Fri May 12, 2017 7:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Zealots 2 (8-5, 2016 champion)
Zealots 43 (10-3)
Zealots DEV-1 (8-5, 2016 champion)
Zealots REL-1 (13-1)
Paragon Pigskin (10-4)
Paragon Doppelgänger (2-11)
Paragon Blue Chip (6-7)
Paragon Divide et Impera
Paragon Go Deep
Backyard Brawl IDP (11-2, 2016 champion)
Black (10-3, 2016 champion)
The Dark Arts Dynasty League
The Singularity
Blue Label (5-8)
The Bull Horn Super Flex
Gangland (7-5)

User avatar
Oslo Oildrillers
Practice Squad
Practice Squad
Posts: 181
Joined: Sun May 18, 2014 3:16 am

Re: Petition Rotoworld/MFL For an EDGE Position IDP

Postby Oslo Oildrillers » Fri May 12, 2017 7:20 pm

Bruiser wrote:
Fri May 12, 2017 7:10 pm
The leagues I run have no problem with this position issue you are all talking about. Von Miller and Justin Houston have been the LB1 in these leagues. Fix your format. That's the problem.
Nope. It's not.

The current system obviously works for your personal preference, that's great. I'm advocating for a solution that would allow you to do the exact same thing you do today, and for me and others to custom-make IDP leagues that would be perfect for us. All we want is more options.
Zealots 2 (8-5, 2016 champion)
Zealots 43 (10-3)
Zealots DEV-1 (8-5, 2016 champion)
Zealots REL-1 (13-1)
Paragon Pigskin (10-4)
Paragon Doppelgänger (2-11)
Paragon Blue Chip (6-7)
Paragon Divide et Impera
Paragon Go Deep
Backyard Brawl IDP (11-2, 2016 champion)
Black (10-3, 2016 champion)
The Dark Arts Dynasty League
The Singularity
Blue Label (5-8)
The Bull Horn Super Flex
Gangland (7-5)

Howat
Practice Squad
Practice Squad
Posts: 242
Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2012 1:22 am

Re: Petition Rotoworld/MFL For an EDGE Position IDP

Postby Howat » Fri May 12, 2017 8:26 pm

I think an edge position is a terrible solution to the problem. With the league becoming so pass heavy, teams are playing out of the nickel more than 50% of the time. There are teams like NE, NO, and BAL that play multiple fronts and the rest of the league is split between 3-4 and 4-3. A simple solution would be to base player designations on what position they line up when in the nickel since this is the most common defence league wide.

Howat
Practice Squad
Practice Squad
Posts: 242
Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2012 1:22 am

Re: Petition Rotoworld/MFL For an EDGE Position IDP

Postby Howat » Fri May 12, 2017 8:56 pm

In 2015, Khalil Mack was voted all pro as DE and an OLB
Von Miller got in as an OLB
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_All-Pro_Team

Last year they scrapped DE and OLB and Mack got in as an Edge Rusher
Von Miller got in as a LB
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_All-Pro_Team

Just use Nickel as the base and they both go in as DEs. Maybe thats the best solution?
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/heres ... n-the-nfl/

User avatar
FiremanEd
Legend
Legend
Posts: 6296
Joined: Sat Jul 06, 2013 12:51 pm

Re: Petition Rotoworld/MFL For an EDGE Position IDP

Postby FiremanEd » Fri May 12, 2017 9:04 pm

Sounds like a terrible idea. Von clearly does not play DE.

User avatar
Oslo Oildrillers
Practice Squad
Practice Squad
Posts: 181
Joined: Sun May 18, 2014 3:16 am

Re: Petition Rotoworld/MFL For an EDGE Position IDP

Postby Oslo Oildrillers » Sat May 13, 2017 12:37 am

Howat wrote:
Fri May 12, 2017 8:56 pm
In 2015, Khalil Mack was voted all pro as DE and an OLB
Von Miller got in as an OLB
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_All-Pro_Team

Last year they scrapped DE and OLB and Mack got in as an Edge Rusher
Von Miller got in as a LB
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_All-Pro_Team

Just use Nickel as the base and they both go in as DEs. Maybe thats the best solution?
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/heres ... n-the-nfl/
(Hey Chris!)

Yeah, the Rotoworld-MFL system of determining positions is antiquated. Last year there was another jump towards nickel, PFF charted it as only 27% base, 55% nickel, 8% dime and 10% in other formations. Does it really matter if a player lines up with his hand down or standing up if he aligns in the exact same position? Should a hand in the ground be the difference between comparing his stats up against Luke Kuechly instead of Ziggy Ansah? Should a 3-tech 4-3 DT like Aaron Donald 2016 be compared against a 0 or 1 tech whereas a 3-4 DE like Calais Campbell who plays mostly 3-tech should be compared against 6, 7 and 9-techs? It doesn't make sense.

Breeze, let me ask you this; what would you feel would be the perfect way of designating positions? You can't seriously mean that the current system is a good one in terms of accurately reflecting the roles of the different positions/players? How these players line up in base is pretty irrelevant nowadays with the way practically all defenses are turning into hybrids and spend 70%+ in sub-packages, and it hurts IDP by sudden player value drops or boosts in the offseason since player values are so linked to base position designations.

As far as I can see the solution has to be to to start making more specific position designations. We should have nose tackles, we should probably start using technique designations rather than just DT or DE, and we need a way to handle pass-rushing OLBs. But let me be clear; I'm totally against forcing changes that would affect existing leagues. If MFL decided to simply move all pass-rushing OLBs to a new EDGE position that also included DEs I would revolt. But creating new more specific designations would only provide more freedom and would not affect existing leagues or conservative leagues that prefer old school IDP.

Not that this would be without complications, it can be difficult with players that play hybrid roles on their teams, and it might take some time for league creators to find a position and scoring system that is properly balanced - but the current system where pass-rushing OLBs are grouped together with ILBs, MLBs and run-and-chase WLBs is clearly a very, very poor system as these players play COMPLETELY different positions and roles. It makes a lot more sense to move them to DE, if we're just going to pretend like those are the only two options; to either keep them at LB or move them to DE. There are many ways creative leagues could find ways to utilise more specific position designations - but right now we're being held back by an antiquated way of assigning player positions according to base formations.

All we're asking for is options. And dumbing down the EDGE discussion to a discussion about simply whether or not we should move pass-rushing OLBs to DE, as if that's the only option, and rant about it on twitter, is arguing against a movement towards creating more options for how to set up our IDP leagues. I don't understand why anyone would be against more options and freedom. *insert american flag*
Zealots 2 (8-5, 2016 champion)
Zealots 43 (10-3)
Zealots DEV-1 (8-5, 2016 champion)
Zealots REL-1 (13-1)
Paragon Pigskin (10-4)
Paragon Doppelgänger (2-11)
Paragon Blue Chip (6-7)
Paragon Divide et Impera
Paragon Go Deep
Backyard Brawl IDP (11-2, 2016 champion)
Black (10-3, 2016 champion)
The Dark Arts Dynasty League
The Singularity
Blue Label (5-8)
The Bull Horn Super Flex
Gangland (7-5)

User avatar
lukkynumber13
GOAT
GOAT
Posts: 11601
Joined: Fri May 20, 2016 2:41 pm

Re: Petition Rotoworld/MFL For an EDGE Position IDP

Postby lukkynumber13 » Sat May 13, 2017 1:37 am

Oslo Oildrillers wrote:
Sat May 13, 2017 12:37 am
I don't understand why anyone would be against more options and freedom. *insert american flag*
The internet has been won, ladies & dudes. Oslo, you are now King. Accept this crown, and my respect.
BOTH TEAMS BELOW ARE 1QB

TEAM A - 12 teams (19 R/U, 18 Champ, 17 R/U)
HERBERT, Brees, Tua, Wentz
COOK/JACOBS/MIXON, Dobbins, Swift, Hunt, Singletary, Bell, B Hill, Wilkins
NUK/HILL/GOLLADAY/K ALLEN, Diontae J, Hollywood, Ruggs, Pittman, Hilton, G Davis, Snead
KITTLE, Waller, Akins, H Bryant
-
Not listing my IDP, but they matter as much as offense in this league. Joey Bosa, Buckner, Sweat, and Cam Jordan are my main studs.
///
///
TEAM B - 32 teams, double copy - TEs get 1.5x bump in scoring
LAMAR, Cousins, Rivers, J Love
SAQUON/MIXON/CARSON, Dobbins, Lindsay, Mattison, Ingram, D Freeman, Clement
NUK/K ALLEN/JULIO/AROB, Evans, Thielen, DJ Moore, Lamb, Boyd, Coutee, Alshon
KITTLE/L Thomas, Ertz, Reed
Danielle Hunter, Aaron Donald, and Chris Jones are the cornerstones of my IDP squad.

User avatar
bruiser
Ring of Fame
Ring of Fame
Posts: 3158
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2015 11:37 am

Re: Petition Rotoworld/MFL For an EDGE Position IDP

Postby bruiser » Sat May 13, 2017 2:35 am

Yeah, Oslo, I get your point. And, I think you are right that more specific player designations would be a better solution to the "problem". Also, fair to point out that you couldn't apply those specific changes to an existing league, but I'd be interested in joining a startup like that. However, we would be a very small collection of owners looking for something new and progressive there.

As a proponent for fixing broken formats, I run into a lot of hesitation from many in the community. Many FFB die-hards are pretty set in their comfort zone and wouldn't care to learn a new format. It's why WR is the overwhelming most coveted position: format-driven scarcity. Applying poor formats to the IDP side you get chase-and-tackle WILLs and MIKEs as the most valued players. While in reality, they're just not as valuable.

If your scoring/settings/format are setup in a way that neutralizes a value swing from a position switch (DE to OLB), then this topic doesn't even come up. Big play scoring is a must to help offset tackle-heavy. Use both.
Just a guy who loves fantasy football - specifically defense.

hoffballs
Combine Attendee
Combine Attendee
Posts: 14
Joined: Mon Feb 29, 2016 1:12 pm

Re: Petition Rotoworld/MFL For an EDGE Position IDP

Postby hoffballs » Sat May 13, 2017 2:50 am

People playing IDP want to know who their pass rushers are.

They want Mack to rush the QB.

They dont want Mack designated at the same position as Deone Bucannon.

This is as much aesthetics as it is practicality.

The current system employed by Rotoworld and adopted by MFL is outdated and inefficient.

More designations and more flexibility is better for everyone because guess what folks, NFL teams use more designations and have more positional flexibility.

NFL defenses look like they are playing chess while fantasy IDP defenses will continue to play checkers for as long as we follow Rotoworlds 1995 depth chart algorithm.

breeze
Hall of Fame
Hall of Fame
Posts: 4380
Joined: Thu Jan 16, 2014 12:10 pm

Re: Petition Rotoworld/MFL For an EDGE Position IDP

Postby breeze » Sun May 14, 2017 5:55 am

If you want the EDGE linebacker to simply have more flexibility in positions then this is something you should work to do with your commish and leaguemates.

It's irrational to think multiple sites will spend a large amount of time to make custom settings that so few people want. Also where does it end? Making edge linebacker is now making sub-categories to a position which is done nowhere else in FF. Do you also was Power/3rd-down RB, outside/slot WR and blocking/move TE designations?

I still think this is all stemmed from people being upset that they have OLBs on their team and they want to play them at DL. The argument of "I want 3-4 OLB to be valuable as they are in real life" has a lot of holes in it. I've never once heard of someone say something like "MFL should make separate SS/FS designations so FS have as much IDP value as real value". Earl Thomas the last decade has been an All-Pro safety, in discussion of top 5 player in the entire league but his IDP value is nowhere near and why is that? He plays a position that isn't as valuable as a in-the-box strong safety.

So why do people care so much about 3-4 OLB but not positions like CB (in non CB required), NT and FS? It's obvious to me.

Regardless what you want to admit, if you want an extremely complicated league with a million position designations and something not like any other leagues then you need to put in the work. Making FF more complex and confusing is the last thing anybody wants to do to grow in popularity.
Twitter: @BreezeIDP


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest