What is an MVP?

[Bronco Billy]

Lamar isn't Quaterbacky enough to win MVP

Right. Jackson being supported by the top running offense in the league is quite the argument. Like he wasn’t the team’s rushing leader that got them there. Lol.

I have no problems arguing for any of the guys mentioned here.

Jackson - 4,499 yards, 29 TDs, 9 turnovers, 13-4
Love - 4,406/36/13 9-8
Stroud - 4,275/26/6 10-7
Prescott - 4,758/38/10 12-5

They are all within a reasonable range of each other in my opinion. McCaffrey too, just left him out as I’m sure most agree he won’t get it because of position.

All you could make an argument for. But eliminating one simply because he ran too much (which in turn kept his passing numbers down)…..is something.

It’s precisely because of the bolded is why his consideration should be downgraded.

A QB’s primary responsibility is to distribute the football. Running is a strong asset to a QB but is not why he’s under center - the ability to get the ball into other players’ hands is.

I won’t diminish Jackson his running, he’s a great open field runner. But I will diminish him for choosing to run so much over standing back and delivering the ball to others. And as a passer, Jackson is at best mediocre. It’s a lot easier for him to accrue rushing yardage when he does so primarily by dropping back to pass, failing to stand in and find a receiver, and then breaking contain against the D that is spread out all over the field in coverage. That’s geometrically easier than a RB taking a handoff and running again a D that is reading and reacting to a run.

You made a great point in the bolded - the reason his passing numbers aren’t a whole lot better is because he chooses to run rather than throw. So you want to reward him for abandoning his primary task on the field in favor of taking off against spread out Ds. That does make him a difficult player to defend, but at the same time it does put a knock on him for failing in what he is primarily out there for.

[Bronco Billy]

It’s supposed to go to the player who had the most outstanding season. But people have gotten caught up in the semantics of the word “valuable”. Back when the award was created, that really could have been any position. But in today’s passing league, in theory it could only go to a qb if you get caught up in the semantics. People need to stop being idiots and go with the original intent of the award, not the weird convoluted meaning we’ve morphed it into today.

Some of us prefer to play into our strengths. I’d appreciate it if you’d stop being so judgmental.

[Cameron Giles]

For the sake of defining "in the conversation," I went back and looked at every player who received at least one first place vote for MVP in the last 20 years. Here are the players who received a 1st place vote, despite not winning their division:

2016: 1 (Derek Carr - 12 wins, lost division tiebreaker to KC)
2014: 1 (J.J. Watt - Unanimous DPOY)
2012: 1 (Adrian Peterson - missed the rushing record by 8 yards)
2008: 1 (Michael Turner)
2003: 1 (Steve McNair - 12 wins, lost division tiebreaker to IND)

So, you have two QBs who won double digit games, tied their division, but lost the tiebreaker, an RB who almost broke the single season rushing record, a unanimous DPOY....and Michael Turner.....who I guess got a lot of credit for a 7-win improvement?

There is some grey area with MVP, but historically winning your division is a consistent baseline requirement, which makes sense. Otherwise, you either need to have an all-time great statistical season, or be responsible for a large win improvement.

It's not a perfect approach, but I don't think it's completely illogical either.

[frerichs5]

Lamar isn't Quaterbacky enough to win MVP

Right. Jackson being supported by the top running offense in the league is quite the argument. Like he wasn’t the team’s rushing leader that got them there. Lol.

I have no problems arguing for any of the guys mentioned here.

Jackson - 4,499 yards, 29 TDs, 9 turnovers, 13-4
Love - 4,406/36/13 9-8
Stroud - 4,275/26/6 10-7
Prescott - 4,758/38/10 12-5

They are all within a reasonable range of each other in my opinion. McCaffrey too, just left him out as I’m sure most agree he won’t get it because of position.

All you could make an argument for. But eliminating one simply because he ran too much (which in turn kept his passing numbers down)…..is something.

It’s precisely because of the bolded is why his consideration should be downgraded.

A QB’s primary responsibility is to distribute the football. Running is a strong asset to a QB but is not why he’s under center - the ability to get the ball into other players’ hands is.

I won’t diminish Jackson his running, he’s a great open field runner. But I will diminish him for choosing to run so much over standing back and delivering the ball to others. And as a passer, Jackson is at best mediocre. It’s a lot easier for him to accrue rushing yardage when he does so primarily by dropping back to pass, failing to stand in and find a receiver, and then breaking contain against the D that is spread out all over the field in coverage. That’s geometrically easier than a RB taking a handoff and running again a D that is reading and reacting to a run.

You made a great point in the bolded - the reason his passing numbers aren’t a whole lot better is because he chooses to run rather than throw. So you want to reward him for abandoning his primary task on the field in favor of taking off against spread out Ds. That does make him a difficult player to defend, but at the same time it does put a knock on him for failing in what he is primarily out there for.

If that’s your argument, I get it. I disagree. His primary job in my opinion is to score points and win games.

Do you ding pass catching RBs because a RBs primary job is to run the ball?

How about Jayden Reed who I’ve seen you post about before? Do his rushes not mean as much? That’s not a WRs primary job.

Why is QB different?

If Jackson sucked at passing, I’d probably tend to agree. But he doesn’t.

[Cameron Giles]

It ain’t Jackson, that’s definite IMO. The 21st ranked passing O supported by the top rushing offense and one of the best Ds, arguably the best D, is NOT the resume of the most valuable player in the league. Jackson was a leader and a main cog, but the most valuable player in the league given that kind of support? No way, no how.

I never get this logic. Pretty much every MVP has played on a stacked team. Nobody said anything when Mahomes was playing with Hill, Hunt, and Kelce. Peyton Manning played on some very talented Colts teams. The Patriots were always loaded on defense.

[Cameron Giles]

My personal opinion is the MVP is the player most responsible for a top team's winning record over the course of the entire season. To clarify, not necessarily the team with the best overall record, but one of the top division winners. Unless a player has truly historical stats for a season, I don't think the MVP should be based solely on individual stats. There are so many variables and nuances that make a player a great force that helps his team win. Yardage and TD Stats are only one variable.

IMO, Jackson was the player most responsible for helping his team win, while also being responsible for the least amount of plays that were counterproductive.

I think this is a good approach and it's often what the media logically considers. Baltimore has the best record in football and a QB who is objectively a difference maker, regardless of how you want to criticize him as a pure passer.

That's more than enough to win MVP. It definitely won't be unanimous though.

[Bronco Billy]

Right. Jackson being supported by the top running offense in the league is quite the argument. Like he wasn’t the team’s rushing leader that got them there. Lol.

I have no problems arguing for any of the guys mentioned here.

Jackson - 4,499 yards, 29 TDs, 9 turnovers, 13-4
Love - 4,406/36/13 9-8
Stroud - 4,275/26/6 10-7
Prescott - 4,758/38/10 12-5

They are all within a reasonable range of each other in my opinion. McCaffrey too, just left him out as I’m sure most agree he won’t get it because of position.

All you could make an argument for. But eliminating one simply because he ran too much (which in turn kept his passing numbers down)…..is something.

It’s precisely because of the bolded is why his consideration should be downgraded.

A QB’s primary responsibility is to distribute the football. Running is a strong asset to a QB but is not why he’s under center - the ability to get the ball into other players’ hands is.

I won’t diminish Jackson his running, he’s a great open field runner. But I will diminish him for choosing to run so much over standing back and delivering the ball to others. And as a passer, Jackson is at best mediocre. It’s a lot easier for him to accrue rushing yardage when he does so primarily by dropping back to pass, failing to stand in and find a receiver, and then breaking contain against the D that is spread out all over the field in coverage. That’s geometrically easier than a RB taking a handoff and running again a D that is reading and reacting to a run.

You made a great point in the bolded - the reason his passing numbers aren’t a whole lot better is because he chooses to run rather than throw. So you want to reward him for abandoning his primary task on the field in favor of taking off against spread out Ds. That does make him a difficult player to defend, but at the same time it does put a knock on him for failing in what he is primarily out there for.

If that’s your argument, I get it. I disagree. His primary job in my opinion is to score points and win games.

Do you ding pass catching RBs because a RBs primary job is to run the ball?

How about Jayden Reed who I’ve seen you post about before? Do his rushes not mean as much? That’s not a WRs primary job.

Why is QB different?

If Jackson sucked at passing, I’d probably tend to agree. But he doesn’t.

I would not put Reed up for MVP. That is the discussion here. Not whether Jackson is a great weapon in the NFL but rather is he the best in the league at what he does compared to other players in the league at what they do and then how much of his team’s success is his responsibility.

I do ding RBs in MVP consideration when they catch in lieu of rushing. It’s why I support McCaffrey for MVP votes - he rushed better than any RB in the league - by a wide margin - and on top if that he added enough in his secondary responsibility of receiving that he put up over 2,000 yfs. See the difference - he excelled at his primary responsibility, much better than anyone in the league, and then added the bonus in his secondary responsibility. In doing so, he made the passing O function that much better.

I’d throw support to Hill - look at how he’s mastered his primary responsibility despite being almost wholly dependent on another player to get the ball into his hands and then his impact on his team’s success.

Jackson? Great weapon, no question. MVP? Don’t think so. Take away that D and Baltimore is maybe a .500 team, probably worse.

[Bronco Billy]

Fun discussion though seeing how people view the MVP and how to compare players.

[killer_of_giants]

take away one of the best aspects of a team and that team wouldn't look as good...

i'd give it to hill or mccaffrey, but i don't think it's a scandal to give it to lamar, it just tastes of "gotta be a QB", but he's played very well this season.

[frerichs5]

It’s precisely because of the bolded is why his consideration should be downgraded.

A QB’s primary responsibility is to distribute the football. Running is a strong asset to a QB but is not why he’s under center - the ability to get the ball into other players’ hands is.

I won’t diminish Jackson his running, he’s a great open field runner. But I will diminish him for choosing to run so much over standing back and delivering the ball to others. And as a passer, Jackson is at best mediocre. It’s a lot easier for him to accrue rushing yardage when he does so primarily by dropping back to pass, failing to stand in and find a receiver, and then breaking contain against the D that is spread out all over the field in coverage. That’s geometrically easier than a RB taking a handoff and running again a D that is reading and reacting to a run.

You made a great point in the bolded - the reason his passing numbers aren’t a whole lot better is because he chooses to run rather than throw. So you want to reward him for abandoning his primary task on the field in favor of taking off against spread out Ds. That does make him a difficult player to defend, but at the same time it does put a knock on him for failing in what he is primarily out there for.

If that’s your argument, I get it. I disagree. His primary job in my opinion is to score points and win games.

Do you ding pass catching RBs because a RBs primary job is to run the ball?

How about Jayden Reed who I’ve seen you post about before? Do his rushes not mean as much? That’s not a WRs primary job.

Why is QB different?

If Jackson sucked at passing, I’d probably tend to agree. But he doesn’t.

I would not put Reed up for MVP. That is the discussion here. Not whether Jackson is a great weapon in the NFL but rather is he the best in the league at what he does compared to other players in the league at what they do and then how much of his team’s success is his responsibility.

I do ding RBs in MVP consideration when they catch in lieu of rushing. It’s why I support McCaffrey for MVP votes - he rushed better than any RB in the league - by a wide margin - and on top if that he added enough in his secondary responsibility of receiving that he put up over 2,000 yfs. See the difference - he excelled at his primary responsibility, much better than anyone in the league, and then added the bonus in his secondary responsibility. In doing so, he made the passing O function that much better.

I’d throw support to Hill - look at how he’s mastered his primary responsibility despite being almost wholly dependent on another player to get the ball into his hands and then his impact on his team’s success.

Jackson? Great weapon, no question. MVP? Don’t think so. Take away that D and Baltimore is maybe a .500 team, probably worse.

Got it.

Jackson has thrown a touchdown on 5.2% of his passes this year vs Love at 5.5, Stroud at 4.6. Jackson 8.0 yards per attempt, Love 7.2, Stroud 8.2. I’d say that’s pretty comparable at their “primary job”. He just doesn’t do it quite as often.

[Bronco Billy]

If that’s your argument, I get it. I disagree. His primary job in my opinion is to score points and win games.

Do you ding pass catching RBs because a RBs primary job is to run the ball?

How about Jayden Reed who I’ve seen you post about before? Do his rushes not mean as much? That’s not a WRs primary job.

Why is QB different?

If Jackson sucked at passing, I’d probably tend to agree. But he doesn’t.

I would not put Reed up for MVP. That is the discussion here. Not whether Jackson is a great weapon in the NFL but rather is he the best in the league at what he does compared to other players in the league at what they do and then how much of his team’s success is his responsibility.

I do ding RBs in MVP consideration when they catch in lieu of rushing. It’s why I support McCaffrey for MVP votes - he rushed better than any RB in the league - by a wide margin - and on top if that he added enough in his secondary responsibility of receiving that he put up over 2,000 yfs. See the difference - he excelled at his primary responsibility, much better than anyone in the league, and then added the bonus in his secondary responsibility. In doing so, he made the passing O function that much better.

I’d throw support to Hill - look at how he’s mastered his primary responsibility despite being almost wholly dependent on another player to get the ball into his hands and then his impact on his team’s success.

Jackson? Great weapon, no question. MVP? Don’t think so. Take away that D and Baltimore is maybe a .500 team, probably worse.

Got it.

Jackson has thrown a touchdown on 5.2% of his passes this year vs Love at 5.5, Stroud at 4.6. Jackson 8.0 yards per attempt, Love 7.2, Stroud 8.2. I’d say that’s pretty comparable at their “primary job”. He just doesn’t do it quite as often.

I think you just made an argument for not giving him the MVP

[frerichs5]

I would not put Reed up for MVP. That is the discussion here. Not whether Jackson is a great weapon in the NFL but rather is he the best in the league at what he does compared to other players in the league at what they do and then how much of his team’s success is his responsibility.

I do ding RBs in MVP consideration when they catch in lieu of rushing. It’s why I support McCaffrey for MVP votes - he rushed better than any RB in the league - by a wide margin - and on top if that he added enough in his secondary responsibility of receiving that he put up over 2,000 yfs. See the difference - he excelled at his primary responsibility, much better than anyone in the league, and then added the bonus in his secondary responsibility. In doing so, he made the passing O function that much better.

I’d throw support to Hill - look at how he’s mastered his primary responsibility despite being almost wholly dependent on another player to get the ball into his hands and then his impact on his team’s success.

Jackson? Great weapon, no question. MVP? Don’t think so. Take away that D and Baltimore is maybe a .500 team, probably worse.

Got it.

Jackson has thrown a touchdown on 5.2% of his passes this year vs Love at 5.5, Stroud at 4.6. Jackson 8.0 yards per attempt, Love 7.2, Stroud 8.2. I’d say that’s pretty comparable at their “primary job”. He just doesn’t do it quite as often.

I think you just made an argument for not giving him the MVP

In your opinion.

I don’t agree passing is the sole thing a QB should be judged on for MVP.

I understand your argument now, I just don’t agree with it.

[Bronco Billy]

I understand your argument now, I just don’t agree with it.

Yep, I’m with you here. Thanks for the great debate.

[YouMightDieTryin]

"best qb to win a division" doesn't have the same ring to it. think about it: BQWD? BDWQ? nah, don't think so.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1OrNS2zbTZg ?

[JoeJoe88]

Stroud would get my vote.

How many wins you think they have this season with Mills at the helm?