Bryce Young

[Sriracha]

It's funny, because with all the concern about his size, it really hasn't been an issue. He's taken a ton of hits and made some great throws through contact. His size isn't preventing him from seeing the field in an optimal way either.

Young's issue right now is that he rarely has leeway to elevate the offense. It's an offense loaded with players losing matchups at the LOS and receivers who don't get open. On top of that, the play calling is miserable and they simply don't have a way to hide clear talent deficiencies. It's a huge dropoff compared to what Green Bay is dealing with, which is lack of experience and chemistry as opposed to lack of talent. What Greg Olsen said in today's game is spot on. It's impossible to make strong evaluations on Young's future when he doesn't have a chance to play the position anywhere near the way it's intended.

I agree with you that his decision making has been poor, though a lot of that is rooted in everything being sped up from pressure and having to force your way into making something from nothing. His best plays this season are all under pressure throws.

Obviously, he's not an all-time great prospect like a Trevor Lawrence or Peyton Manning. But he's the next tier down as far as production goes and he dominated the best conference in college football despite size concerns. So, it's not like we're talking about some B- prospect here. I think giving this time makes sense when you see the pure lack of chances he's getting to do anything worthwhile.

I'd disagree. Bryce has already missed one game and his size has definitely been an issue with evading tackles in the NFL. Bryce isn't the most athletic QB, doesn't have the strongest arm and while his accuracy is a strength of his he isn't on the same level as Drew Brees or even Tua in terms of ball placement. A big part of what got him drafted at the 1.01 were the improvisational skills he showed when he broke the pocket in college. In the NFL those plays are becoming harder and harder to come by because he's unable to break free from arm tackles and the defenders are way more athletic meaning he's a lot less elusive. The fact that he's largely looked to be unable to excel outside of structure is a big reason he's failed to live up to expectations.

As for blaming the system and WRs for his inability to be productive.. these are the same players and system that Andy Dalton ran much more effectively in one game than Bryce has in any game this season.

I'm not saying that these are an all-star group of receivers but Adam Thielen is a multi year pro-bowler and DJ Chark has a 1,000 yard season under his belt. Thielen is 33 years old and is coming off a down injury plagued year but he's still playing at a high level with a 79.6 PFF grade. For reference, the highest graded Packers receiver is Doubs at a 70.6

There have been rookie QBs that have done more with less and a lot of them have proven to not be the answer over time. Marcus Mariota with Delanie Walker, Kendall Wright and Dorial Green-Beckham as his top options and Baker Mayfield with Jarvis Landry, David Njoku and Rashard Higgins for instance. In both cases they were eventually found out by defenses and were unable to overcome their deficiencies... In Bryce's case he hasn't even had the initial break through period.

So while he could definitely improve there's also the chance he falls in line with other 1.01 busts like Jameis Winston and David Carr and I'd blame no one for trying to re-roll next year at a slight loss instead of hoping he rights the ship as an extreme size outlier.

[trc]

I'd disagree. Bryce has already missed one game and his size has definitely been an issue with evading tackles in the NFL.

Due to a twisted ancle, lets not get carried away with blaming that on his size.

Though as a Bryce owner, I'm very concerned about the future.

If you are 'lucky' to get a mid 1st in SF for him, that is what Nabers/Bowers? At best.
I struggle with the idea of jumping ship for the risk of picking a rookie tier 2/3 WR.

[TheTroll]

We all cant help but compare Bryce so far to Stroud. This is fair but when I see the situations, I’m comparing what the Texans have done around Stroud to what the Panthers haven’t done around Young. CAR got their guy but at a huge cost (that they still are paying off). Not an excuse for poor play but it needs to be factored in.

[Anteaters]

"Sometimes, mistakes be made."

[heydangle]

I feel, at this point, I should have taken Stroud. I’m not ready to give up on Young though. He just needs some help.
Maybe a lot of it

[killer_of_giants]

I feel, at this point, I should have taken Stroud.

no shite sherlock!

well, young isn't the new drew brees (though brees didn't start too hot either, but i can't remember him being that bad).
as for selling, i wouldn't right now. he's coming off three straight completely garbage games, might as well wait a few more good-ish games, reich fired and some preseason hype at this point. sell low is one thing, sell lowest is another.

[Cameron Giles]

I'd disagree. Bryce has already missed one game and his size has definitely been an issue with evading tackles in the NFL. Bryce isn't the most athletic QB, doesn't have the strongest arm and while his accuracy is a strength of his he isn't on the same level as Drew Brees or even Tua in terms of ball placement. A big part of what got him drafted at the 1.01 were the improvisational skills he showed when he broke the pocket in college. In the NFL those plays are becoming harder and harder to come by because he's unable to break free from arm tackles and the defenders are way more athletic meaning he's a lot less elusive. The fact that he's largely looked to be unable to excel outside of structure is a big reason he's failed to live up to expectations.

As for blaming the system and WRs for his inability to be productive.. these are the same players and system that Andy Dalton ran much more effectively in one game than Bryce has in any game this season.

I'm not saying that these are an all-star group of receivers but Adam Thielen is a multi year pro-bowler and DJ Chark has a 1,000 yard season under his belt. Thielen is 33 years old and is coming off a down injury plagued year but he's still playing at a high level with a 79.6 PFF grade. For reference, the highest graded Packers receiver is Doubs at a 70.6

There have been rookie QBs that have done more with less and a lot of them have proven to not be the answer over time. Marcus Mariota with Delanie Walker, Kendall Wright and Dorial Green-Beckham as his top options and Baker Mayfield with Jarvis Landry, David Njoku and Rashard Higgins for instance. In both cases they were eventually found out by defenses and were unable to overcome their deficIiencies... In Bryce's case he hasn't even had the initial break through period.

So while he could definitely improve there's also the chance he falls in line with other 1.01 busts like Jameis Winston and David Carr and I'd blame no one for trying to re-roll next year at a slight loss instead of hoping he rights the ship as an extreme size outlier.

I don't see how anyone's who following all the injuries to starting QBs this year could say that Bryce Young's ankle injury is directly related to his size. It just seems like low-hanging fruit. Obviously it's better to be 6'3 than 5'10, but ankles injuries happen regardless of size in the NFL.

I disagree with what you think made Bryce Young the #1 pick. It wasn't his improvision, though that certainly was a strength of his. Bryce Young's pocket instincts, advanced ability to speed through progressions, and his ability to throw players open made him look like a special talent in the SEC. He was a very structured QB at Alabama and he was elite at executing it. The feather in his cap was simply being able to improvise when it did break down. On top of it, he showed elite football IQ and simply had a knack for making the right decision consistently. I'm not going to compare his ball placement to Drew Brees the NFL player or Tua the NFL player, but it definitely was comparable to Tua the prospect. Brees was a 2nd rounder in a different era of football, so I think that's a difficult conversation.

Young isn't failing because he can't execute outside the structure. He's failing, because he is not getting a chance to play the position. He's been sacked 4+ times in 6 of his 9 games. If you go back and watch games, he's rarely even able to get to his first read without pressure in the pocket. How does any of that give you an ability to execute in or outside the structure? You're practically a sitting duck.

The Andy Dalton angle is so overblown. Dalton is a 13-year veteran. There are absolutely things he should know how to do compared to a rookie who had only made two starts to that point. It's not an apples-to-apples comparison.

Remind me what those offensive lines in Tennessee and Cleveland looked like when those players were doing "a lot with less". Carolina has one of the worst offensive lines in the league in terms of pass protection. You can break down what Thielen and Chark have done in the past, but Panthers WRs are objectively not getting open this season. Thielen is doing better than the rest of them, but it's still a 33-year-old Adam Thielen. Their offense rarely can get anything vertical, because the line can't protect that long for a play to develop. So, the entire offense is compressed into the short level of the field.

I think there's valid criticism for Young, as there is for any rookie QB. But, right now he's in a situation where they can't even give him a chance. Like I said, his best passes this season are largely under pressure throws. The degree of difficulty is too high to develop someone in.

[Bronco Billy]

The Andy Dalton angle is so overblown. Dalton is a 13-year veteran. There are absolutely things he should know how to do compared to a rookie who had only made two starts to that point. It's not an apples-to-apples comparison.

A 13 year journeyman QB as opposed to an allegedly elite level rookie QB. Sure, the vet has an edge in experience but the rookie is supposed to be showing flashes of those elite skills that would produce outcomes similar or better than the journeyman does. It’s getting about time that the Young advocates start coming to grips with the possibility that he performed the way he did because it was college and that maybe he isn’t going to get good transfer to the NFL.

That said, it’s early in his career and QB is a very tough position with a massive learning curve. It may end up shaking out with time. But I’m not sure there’s a lot of NFL elite traits there.

[killer_of_giants]

i don't think the dalton argument holds much water, unless you think he'd routinely pass for 350 yards and 2TDs. it was one game, against a bad defense. you don't need this comparison to see that young underperformed beyond the bad situation he has to deal with.

[Cameron Giles]

The Andy Dalton angle is so overblown. Dalton is a 13-year veteran. There are absolutely things he should know how to do compared to a rookie who had only made two starts to that point. It's not an apples-to-apples comparison.

A 13 year journeyman QB as opposed to an allegedly elite level rookie QB. Sure, the vet has an edge in experience but the rookie is supposed to be showing flashes of those elite skills that would produce outcomes similar or better than the journeyman does. It’s getting about time that the Young advocates start coming to grips with the possibility that he performed the way he did because it was college and that maybe he isn’t going to get good transfer to the NFL.

That said, it’s early in his career and QB is a very tough position with a massive learning curve. It may end up shaking out with time. But I’m not sure there’s a lot of NFL elite traits there.

Again, we're talking about a rookie QB in his first two NFL starts on one of the least talented offenses in the league. Acting like he's just supposed to throw for 300+ against Seattle is a weird expectation. Dalton has been a starter most of his career and knows more about the position at this level than Young does.

Bryce Young wasn't just good in college. He was elite in the best conference in college football. So, it's not like he was facing defensive fronts filled with investment bankers and marketing gurus. And it was during a time where Alabama did not have a loaded offensive line or skill position group. It's not like when Tua and Mac were throwing to some combination of Jeudy, Waddle, Ruggs, and DeVonta.

Young has been recognized as elite at every level of football he's played at so far. The NFL is clearly the steepest transition, but it's also clearly a situation where he doesn't have much to work with in order to develop properly as a rookie.

[Bronco Billy]

The Andy Dalton angle is so overblown. Dalton is a 13-year veteran. There are absolutely things he should know how to do compared to a rookie who had only made two starts to that point. It's not an apples-to-apples comparison.

A 13 year journeyman QB as opposed to an allegedly elite level rookie QB. Sure, the vet has an edge in experience but the rookie is supposed to be showing flashes of those elite skills that would produce outcomes similar or better than the journeyman does. It’s getting about time that the Young advocates start coming to grips with the possibility that he performed the way he did because it was college and that maybe he isn’t going to get good transfer to the NFL.

That said, it’s early in his career and QB is a very tough position with a massive learning curve. It may end up shaking out with time. But I’m not sure there’s a lot of NFL elite traits there.

Again, we're talking about a rookie QB in his first two NFL starts on one of the least talented offenses in the league. Acting like he's just supposed to throw for 300+ against Seattle is a weird expectation. Dalton has been a starter most of his career and knows more about the position at this level than Young does.

Bryce Young wasn't just good in college. He was elite in the best conference in college football. So, it's not like he was facing defensive fronts filled with investment bankers and marketing gurus. And it was during a time where Alabama did not have a loaded offensive line or skill position group. It's not like when Tua and Mac were throwing to some combination of Jeudy, Waddle, Ruggs, and DeVonta.

Young has been recognized as elite at every level of football he's played at so far. The NFL is clearly the steepest transition, but it's also clearly a situation where he doesn't have much to work with in order to develop properly as a rookie.

We’re going to have to agree to disagree. I see a lot of items in this response that I cannot get on board with. I’ll just point out that there have been plenty of players that have had elite college careers only to find out that they didn’t have the skills and abilities to continue that success in the NFL. Young very well could be the next in line in that group. But I’ve also supported giving QBs time to acclimate because the learning curve is so steep. We’ll see.

[Jrblaha]

I feel, at this point, I should have taken Stroud.

no shite sherlock!

well, young isn't the new drew brees (though brees didn't start too hot either, but i can't remember him being that bad).
as for selling, i wouldn't right now. he's coming off three straight completely garbage games, might as well wait a few more good-ish games, reich fired and some preseason hype at this point. sell low is one thing, sell lowest is another.

Probably running into some disagreement on what his lowest is. It can definitely get lower (or higher)

[FantasyFreak]

It's funny, because with all the concern about his size, it really hasn't been an issue. He's taken a ton of hits and made some great throws through contact. His size isn't preventing him from seeing the field in an optimal way either.

It's preventing him from making certain throws. Last week he missed wide open Hayden Hurst near the end of the game, that was directly related to his height, for instance. Was plain as day to see. That's just one example.

I regards to Young, and Love. As stated above, organization is a difference, and Love has a lot more physical tools, more upside. Love has shown games where you see that upside, with a bunch of inexperienced rookies and year 2 WR's around him, and a beaten up OL. He's got an arm, and mobility, and size. I would take Love over Young in a SF league, without thinking twice.

[killer_of_giants]

I feel, at this point, I should have taken Stroud.

no shite sherlock!

well, young isn't the new drew brees (though brees didn't start too hot either, but i can't remember him being that bad).
as for selling, i wouldn't right now. he's coming off three straight completely garbage games, might as well wait a few more good-ish games, reich fired and some preseason hype at this point. sell low is one thing, sell lowest is another.

Probably running into some disagreement on what his lowest is. It can definitely get lower (or higher)

well, sure, when you hit the bottom, you can always start digging.

[Cameron Giles]

It's preventing him from making certain throws. Last week he missed wide open Hayden Hurst near the end of the game, that was directly related to his height, for instance. Was plain as day to see. That's just one example.

I regards to Young, and Love. As stated above, organization is a difference, and Love has a lot more physical tools, more upside. Love has shown games where you see that upside, with a bunch of inexperienced rookies and year 2 WR's around him, and a beaten up OL. He's got an arm, and mobility, and size. I would take Love over Young in a SF league, without thinking twice.

That's not what happened though. I disagree that Love has more upside than Young, though I agree that he has more physical tools. Love is in a position where he is able to have somewhat of a chance to play the role in the way it's intended to. Green Bay's errors largely come on miscommunication and lack of experience rather than simple lack of talent to execute.

My point in mentioning Love is that I've seen you point out similar flaws when Love does not play his strongest that I've mentioned with Bryce in this thread. You'll mention the OL not being at 100% or just flat out getting beat, you'll mention WRs not doing things correctly, and you'll even point out coaching issues pretty hard. But with Young those same things (which are all objectively worse than Love's situation), are not emphasized nearly as strongly for why he's not playing at a certain level and you move directly towards "sell low" after 9 games.

It doesn't really have consistency.