Zig While Others Zag
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Zig While Others Zag
One of the hottest names in camp right now is Luke Musgrave. All reports coming out of camp say he’s extremely fast and running with the 1s. He very well may turn out to be the next big thing at TE, but I would rather have Kraft at his ADP than Musgrave.
His two career college touchdowns really put a damper on the camp reports for me. He’s not a great blocker and isn’t great after contact. I feel he’s standing out in camp because it’s toned down without too much tackling.
Who knows if Kraft will overtake him this year because he has his own question marks but my bet long run is on Kraft.
Any other times where people went against the consensus and it worked or didn’t work?
His two career college touchdowns really put a damper on the camp reports for me. He’s not a great blocker and isn’t great after contact. I feel he’s standing out in camp because it’s toned down without too much tackling.
Who knows if Kraft will overtake him this year because he has his own question marks but my bet long run is on Kraft.
Any other times where people went against the consensus and it worked or didn’t work?
12 Team PPR League, 25 Man Rosters, 2 Taxi Squad
Start QB, RB, RB, WR, WR, WR, TE, FLEX, FLEX
QB- Murray, Lawrence, Mayfield
RB- Montgomery, Javonte Williams, Najee Harris, Jamaal Williams, Carter, Joshua Kelly, Trayveon Williams, Eli Mitchell
WR- J. Jefferson, Tyreek, D. Smith, Tank Dell, Curtis Samuel, Hollywood Brown, Renfrow, Rashee Rice
TE- Pitts, Ferguson, Higbee
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24=1st, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 4th, 5th
25= 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th
Start QB, RB, RB, WR, WR, WR, TE, FLEX, FLEX
QB- Murray, Lawrence, Mayfield
RB- Montgomery, Javonte Williams, Najee Harris, Jamaal Williams, Carter, Joshua Kelly, Trayveon Williams, Eli Mitchell
WR- J. Jefferson, Tyreek, D. Smith, Tank Dell, Curtis Samuel, Hollywood Brown, Renfrow, Rashee Rice
TE- Pitts, Ferguson, Higbee
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24=1st, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 4th, 5th
25= 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th
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Re: Zig While Others Zag
Kraft will be the in-line TE and Musgrave will be the move TE. That means Kraft will be on the field in all situations while Musgrave will be used in 12 personnel similar to 3 wide and 4 wide sets. Musgrave is not a good blocker and likely never will be.Kurtrambis1 wrote: ↑Thu Aug 10, 2023 12:49 pm One of the hottest names in camp right now is Luke Musgrave. All reports coming out of camp say he’s extremely fast and running with the 1s. He very well may turn out to be the next big thing at TE, but I would rather have Kraft at his ADP than Musgrave.
His two career college touchdowns really put a damper on the camp reports for me. He’s not a great blocker and isn’t great after contact. I feel he’s standing out in camp because it’s toned down without too much tackling.
Who knows if Kraft will overtake him this year because he has his own question marks but my bet long run is on Kraft.
Any other times where people went against the consensus and it worked or didn’t work?
Word out so far is that both guys are doing well with Musgrave getting better initial returns. Kraft will likely have Deguara limiting him until he’s fully up to speed on NFL level blocking for TEs.
I agree with your choice of TEs in this case. I’m relatively fairly contrarian myself so I’m with you on going against the grain.
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Re: Zig While Others Zag
Mark Andrews over Hurst was probably the one that stood out most to me. Hurst had more draft capital, but it was mostly due to his being a more complete TE. Andrews was the receiver and who I picked up everywhere.Kurtrambis1 wrote: ↑Thu Aug 10, 2023 12:49 pm One of the hottest names in camp right now is Luke Musgrave. All reports coming out of camp say he’s extremely fast and running with the 1s. He very well may turn out to be the next big thing at TE, but I would rather have Kraft at his ADP than Musgrave.
His two career college touchdowns really put a damper on the camp reports for me. He’s not a great blocker and isn’t great after contact. I feel he’s standing out in camp because it’s toned down without too much tackling.
Who knows if Kraft will overtake him this year because he has his own question marks but my bet long run is on Kraft.
Any other times where people went against the consensus and it worked or didn’t work?
TE is a position where I think a lot of fantasy footballers struggle to identify talent.
All I Der Is Win - 16 Team IDP League (Pass TD 6pts)
QB - Stafford, Stroud, Tune
RB - Swift, Hall, Penny, Bigsby, Ford
WR - Pittman, Olave, Di. Johnson, G. Wilson, J. Williams, Metchie, Robinson, M. Wilson
TE - Okonkwo, Schoonmaker
LB - Brooks, R. Smith, Phillips
DL - Crosby, Allen, Simmons
DB - D. James, Baker, Delpit
K - Just a stupid kicker
QB - Stafford, Stroud, Tune
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TE - Okonkwo, Schoonmaker
LB - Brooks, R. Smith, Phillips
DL - Crosby, Allen, Simmons
DB - D. James, Baker, Delpit
K - Just a stupid kicker
Re: Zig While Others Zag
There is something to be said for a time to Zig while others Zag..... This isn't one of those times.
Luke is a way better TE prospect and the difference between these two is significant. Are you sure you're not just smoking a bit too much of that stuff in your Zig-Zag rolling papers?
Luke is a way better TE prospect and the difference between these two is significant. Are you sure you're not just smoking a bit too much of that stuff in your Zig-Zag rolling papers?
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Re: Zig While Others Zag
Agreed. TE is a tough position to evaluate for fantasy, and even in the NFL. Look at how many teams spend high capital on TEs all the time and get nothing out of it.ericanadian wrote: ↑Thu Aug 10, 2023 1:00 pm
Mark Andrews over Hurst was probably the one that stood out most to me. Hurst had more draft capital, but it was mostly due to his being a more complete TE. Andrews was the receiver and who I picked up everywhere.
TE is a position where I think a lot of fantasy footballers struggle to identify talent.
I don't know if it's as simple as better blocker wins out, but certainly not a bad thing either.
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Re: Zig While Others Zag
Hahaha that gave me a good chuckle. I could be regretting this in a couple years. I feel to be an elite TE in the NFL you need to secure TDS and it’s something I don’t think Musgrave does well based off college production. His injury last year will give us unknowns. But has there been a TE in the NFL who was really good who never produced in that department in college?Ice wrote: ↑Thu Aug 10, 2023 1:04 pm There is something to be said for a time to Zig while others Zag..... This isn't one of those times.
Luke is a way better TE prospect and the difference between these two. Are you sure you're not just smoking a bit too much of that stuff in your Zig-Zag rolling papers?
He reminds me more of Gesicki than anyone else.
12 Team PPR League, 25 Man Rosters, 2 Taxi Squad
Start QB, RB, RB, WR, WR, WR, TE, FLEX, FLEX
QB- Murray, Lawrence, Mayfield
RB- Montgomery, Javonte Williams, Najee Harris, Jamaal Williams, Carter, Joshua Kelly, Trayveon Williams, Eli Mitchell
WR- J. Jefferson, Tyreek, D. Smith, Tank Dell, Curtis Samuel, Hollywood Brown, Renfrow, Rashee Rice
TE- Pitts, Ferguson, Higbee
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24=1st, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 4th, 5th
25= 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th
Start QB, RB, RB, WR, WR, WR, TE, FLEX, FLEX
QB- Murray, Lawrence, Mayfield
RB- Montgomery, Javonte Williams, Najee Harris, Jamaal Williams, Carter, Joshua Kelly, Trayveon Williams, Eli Mitchell
WR- J. Jefferson, Tyreek, D. Smith, Tank Dell, Curtis Samuel, Hollywood Brown, Renfrow, Rashee Rice
TE- Pitts, Ferguson, Higbee
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24=1st, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 4th, 5th
25= 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th
Re: Zig While Others Zag
Go compare his measurable traits to Travis Kelce and you may change your tune. They are almost clones. The future of the position is away from in-line players and more to a position-less type of TE that can play slot, motion out of the backfield, play out wide, and chip block some when called on in running plays or to release on seam routes out of play action.Kurtrambis1 wrote: ↑Thu Aug 10, 2023 1:09 pmHahaha that gave me a good chuckle. I could be regretting this in a couple years. I feel to be an elite TE in the NFL you need to secure TDS and it’s something I don’t think Musgrave does well based off college production. His injury last year will give us unknowns. But has there been a TE in the NFL who was really good who never produced in that department in college?Ice wrote: ↑Thu Aug 10, 2023 1:04 pm There is something to be said for a time to Zig while others Zag..... This isn't one of those times.
Luke is a way better TE prospect and the difference between these two. Are you sure you're not just smoking a bit too much of that stuff in your Zig-Zag rolling papers?
He reminds me more of Gesicki than anyone else.
Musgrave may never be great like Kelce but he is exactly what teams are trying desperately to draft and develop in at the position. On a side note, college red zone schemes have ZERO to do with NFL schemes. His TD's in college mean nothing. He wasn't calling plays.
Chasing 2010 type TE's isn't a real sound strategy..... stoned or not!
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Re: Zig While Others Zag
So I went and compared all three and I think this encapsulates common views on these two tight ends. They all have extremely close measurables. Kraft is very athletic for a TE but is just a better blocker. Musgrave is a little faster. Just because Musgrave is fast doesn’t mean Kraft isn’t.Ice wrote: ↑Thu Aug 10, 2023 1:30 pmGo compare his measurable traits to Travis Kelce and you may change your tune. They are almost clones. The future of the position is away from in-line players and more to a position-less type of TE that can play slot, motion out of the backfield, play out wide, and chip block some when called on in running plays or to release on seam routes out of play action.Kurtrambis1 wrote: ↑Thu Aug 10, 2023 1:09 pmHahaha that gave me a good chuckle. I could be regretting this in a couple years. I feel to be an elite TE in the NFL you need to secure TDS and it’s something I don’t think Musgrave does well based off college production. His injury last year will give us unknowns. But has there been a TE in the NFL who was really good who never produced in that department in college?Ice wrote: ↑Thu Aug 10, 2023 1:04 pm There is something to be said for a time to Zig while others Zag..... This isn't one of those times.
Luke is a way better TE prospect and the difference between these two. Are you sure you're not just smoking a bit too much of that stuff in your Zig-Zag rolling papers?
He reminds me more of Gesicki than anyone else.
Musgrave may never be great like Kelce but he is exactly what teams are trying desperately to draft and develop in at the position. On a side note, college red zone schemes have ZERO to do with NFL schemes. His TD's in college mean nothing. He wasn't calling plays.
Chasing 2010 type TE's isn't a real sound strategy..... stoned or not!
I don’t think they’re “that” far off as everyone is making them out to be. His lack of TDs should be a big concern for those expecting him to be the next Kelce.
12 Team PPR League, 25 Man Rosters, 2 Taxi Squad
Start QB, RB, RB, WR, WR, WR, TE, FLEX, FLEX
QB- Murray, Lawrence, Mayfield
RB- Montgomery, Javonte Williams, Najee Harris, Jamaal Williams, Carter, Joshua Kelly, Trayveon Williams, Eli Mitchell
WR- J. Jefferson, Tyreek, D. Smith, Tank Dell, Curtis Samuel, Hollywood Brown, Renfrow, Rashee Rice
TE- Pitts, Ferguson, Higbee
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Picks
24=1st, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 4th, 5th
25= 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th
Start QB, RB, RB, WR, WR, WR, TE, FLEX, FLEX
QB- Murray, Lawrence, Mayfield
RB- Montgomery, Javonte Williams, Najee Harris, Jamaal Williams, Carter, Joshua Kelly, Trayveon Williams, Eli Mitchell
WR- J. Jefferson, Tyreek, D. Smith, Tank Dell, Curtis Samuel, Hollywood Brown, Renfrow, Rashee Rice
TE- Pitts, Ferguson, Higbee
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25= 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th
Re: Zig While Others Zag
He was injured for a lot of his college career. It's kinda hard to score TD's when that's the case.Kurtrambis1 wrote: ↑Thu Aug 10, 2023 12:49 pm His two career college touchdowns really put a damper on the camp reports for me. He’s not a great blocker and isn’t great after contact. I feel he’s standing out in camp because it’s toned down without too much tackling.
This feels like the classic "bold strategy, cotton!" meme. We'll see if it works out for you. The drumbeat is undoubtably Team Musgrave right now, and the twitter highlights all back that up. He ran almost exclusively with the 1's for the mock game.
For what it's worth - Dane Brugler (the guy that writes the Beast every year for the Athletic - a scouting report of over 400 players every year - safe to say he works hard in the scouting space) likes both players, and thinks the Packers hit the TE lottery on Day 2.
But in saying that, he's touting the Musgrave drum foremost. He's also pretty connected to the FO's.
I'll happily gamble on Team Musgrave at this point, and I have. Looking forward to checking in on this thread and those zig zag joints this season!He was drafted 10 spots away from being a 1st round pick despite missing almost all of his senior season. Your take isn't close to how NFL teams talked about him pre and post draft.
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Re: Zig While Others Zag
As my college coach used to say “availability is a skill.”mild wrote: ↑Thu Aug 10, 2023 1:53 pmHe was injured for a lot of his college career. It's kinda hard to score TD's when that's the case.Kurtrambis1 wrote: ↑Thu Aug 10, 2023 12:49 pm His two career college touchdowns really put a damper on the camp reports for me. He’s not a great blocker and isn’t great after contact. I feel he’s standing out in camp because it’s toned down without too much tackling.
This feels like the classic "bold strategy, cotton!" meme. We'll see if it works out for you. The drumbeat is undoubtably Team Musgrave right now, and the twitter highlights all back that up. He ran almost exclusively with the 1's for the mock game.
For what it's worth - Dane Brugler (the guy that writes the Beast every year for the Athletic - a scouting report of over 400 players every year - safe to say he works hard in the scouting space) likes both players, and thinks the Packers hit the TE lottery on Day 2.
But in saying that, he's touting the Musgrave drum foremost. He's also pretty connected to the FO's.
I'll happily gamble on Team Musgrave at this point, and I have. Looking forward to checking in on this thread and those zig zag joints this season!He was drafted 10 spots away from being a 1st round pick despite missing almost all of his senior season. Your take isn't close to how NFL teams talked about him pre and post draft.
I’m excited to see it play out! It’s hard to ignore the drumbeat for Musgrave and will be happy if he succeeds. There is no denying a little drumbeat is building for Kraft too. This is a fun time of year trying to decide what are true reports and what is fluff.
12 Team PPR League, 25 Man Rosters, 2 Taxi Squad
Start QB, RB, RB, WR, WR, WR, TE, FLEX, FLEX
QB- Murray, Lawrence, Mayfield
RB- Montgomery, Javonte Williams, Najee Harris, Jamaal Williams, Carter, Joshua Kelly, Trayveon Williams, Eli Mitchell
WR- J. Jefferson, Tyreek, D. Smith, Tank Dell, Curtis Samuel, Hollywood Brown, Renfrow, Rashee Rice
TE- Pitts, Ferguson, Higbee
Taxi-Kraft
Picks
24=1st, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 4th, 5th
25= 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th
Start QB, RB, RB, WR, WR, WR, TE, FLEX, FLEX
QB- Murray, Lawrence, Mayfield
RB- Montgomery, Javonte Williams, Najee Harris, Jamaal Williams, Carter, Joshua Kelly, Trayveon Williams, Eli Mitchell
WR- J. Jefferson, Tyreek, D. Smith, Tank Dell, Curtis Samuel, Hollywood Brown, Renfrow, Rashee Rice
TE- Pitts, Ferguson, Higbee
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Picks
24=1st, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 4th, 5th
25= 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th
Re: Zig While Others Zag
Odds are both of these guys won't cut it in the NFL.mild wrote: ↑Thu Aug 10, 2023 1:53 pmHe was injured for a lot of his college career. It's kinda hard to score TD's when that's the case.Kurtrambis1 wrote: ↑Thu Aug 10, 2023 12:49 pm His two career college touchdowns really put a damper on the camp reports for me. He’s not a great blocker and isn’t great after contact. I feel he’s standing out in camp because it’s toned down without too much tackling.
This feels like the classic "bold strategy, cotton!" meme. We'll see if it works out for you. The drumbeat is undoubtably Team Musgrave right now, and the twitter highlights all back that up. He ran almost exclusively with the 1's for the mock game.
For what it's worth - Dane Brugler (the guy that writes the Beast every year for the Athletic - a scouting report of over 400 players every year - safe to say he works hard in the scouting space) likes both players, and thinks the Packers hit the TE lottery on Day 2.
But in saying that, he's touting the Musgrave drum foremost. He's also pretty connected to the FO's.
I'll happily gamble on Team Musgrave at this point, and I have. Looking forward to checking in on this thread and those zig zag joints this season!He was drafted 10 spots away from being a 1st round pick despite missing almost all of his senior season. Your take isn't close to how NFL teams talked about him pre and post draft.
TE's are often hyped in training camp and fade into the ether when snaps start to matter.
It's just a very tough position to learn and scout not only for fantasy players but also the NFL.
Re: Zig While Others Zag
Alright my cool guy contrarians, my Zags of the Ziggers, my renegade fantasy thought leaders...Bronco Billy wrote: ↑Thu Aug 10, 2023 12:55 pmKraft will be the in-line TE and Musgrave will be the move TE. That means Kraft will be on the field in all situations while Musgrave will be used in 12 personnel similar to 3 wide and 4 wide sets. Musgrave is not a good blocker and likely never will be.Kurtrambis1 wrote: ↑Thu Aug 10, 2023 12:49 pm One of the hottest names in camp right now is Luke Musgrave. All reports coming out of camp say he’s extremely fast and running with the 1s. He very well may turn out to be the next big thing at TE, but I would rather have Kraft at his ADP than Musgrave.
His two career college touchdowns really put a damper on the camp reports for me. He’s not a great blocker and isn’t great after contact. I feel he’s standing out in camp because it’s toned down without too much tackling.
I agree with your choice of TEs in this case. I’m relatively fairly contrarian myself so I’m with you on going against the grain.
It's admittedly early. But we now have data, and this Zag is trending towards eating a fantastically solid L.
The bolded from our Texas legend Bronco Billy suggested that Kraft would stay on the field, and Musgrave would rotate in for pass snaps.
Our early returns:
And from the Bengals 1st Quarter just now:The Packers broadcast 19 team snaps of the Friends and Family game with Jordan Love under center tonight. Luke Musgrave was on the field for every single one of them.
It's on. #TeamMusgrave all the way, baby.For those keeping track, that's 100% of snaps with the starters, 3 targets including a screen and leak, some motion, and getting detached from the OL for Luke Musgrave. Tucker Kraft is on special teams.
Re: Zig While Others Zag
@ Kurtrambis1
"You can lead a horse to water......."
The kid was cocked 20MPH at the Senior Bowl. The packers stole him. Why Pass; Draft Musgrave and pick up your blocking special team player on the waiver wire!
"You can lead a horse to water......."
The kid was cocked 20MPH at the Senior Bowl. The packers stole him. Why Pass; Draft Musgrave and pick up your blocking special team player on the waiver wire!
The Clock is Running and there are no Timeouts
Re: Zig While Others Zag
I can see Musgrave getting five/six dump offs a game for 20-60 yards and the occasional score this year.
Who knows what he grows into, but I believe he was the 14th offensive skill position player in the NFL draft.
If I could find a roster spot, he'd be my third waiver wire scoop
Who knows what he grows into, but I believe he was the 14th offensive skill position player in the NFL draft.
If I could find a roster spot, he'd be my third waiver wire scoop
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Burrow, Richardson
AJ Brown, DJMoore, G Wilson, T Higgens, Sutton, Tillman, Melton
King Henry, Bijan, Pacheco, Mixon, Ford, JK
Hockenson, Musgrave
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Re: Zig While Others Zag
I'm holding strong till I die!
Didn't see the game but it seems he was heavily involved from all the reports. I'm ready to be gracious if Musgrave becomes the next hot thing, but I need more time for Kraft!
12 Team PPR League, 25 Man Rosters, 2 Taxi Squad
Start QB, RB, RB, WR, WR, WR, TE, FLEX, FLEX
QB- Murray, Lawrence, Mayfield
RB- Montgomery, Javonte Williams, Najee Harris, Jamaal Williams, Carter, Joshua Kelly, Trayveon Williams, Eli Mitchell
WR- J. Jefferson, Tyreek, D. Smith, Tank Dell, Curtis Samuel, Hollywood Brown, Renfrow, Rashee Rice
TE- Pitts, Ferguson, Higbee
Taxi-Kraft
Picks
24=1st, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 4th, 5th
25= 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th
Start QB, RB, RB, WR, WR, WR, TE, FLEX, FLEX
QB- Murray, Lawrence, Mayfield
RB- Montgomery, Javonte Williams, Najee Harris, Jamaal Williams, Carter, Joshua Kelly, Trayveon Williams, Eli Mitchell
WR- J. Jefferson, Tyreek, D. Smith, Tank Dell, Curtis Samuel, Hollywood Brown, Renfrow, Rashee Rice
TE- Pitts, Ferguson, Higbee
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25= 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th
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