the great true position controversy

[killer_of_giants]

with MFL bending a few owners on a barrel with positional changes, i thought we might as well debate it.

i am a fan of true position. it's not a matter of "balance", it's more of a philosophical thing: a 3-4 OLB's job is much closer to a 4-3 DE than it is to any ILB. so it is only logical that they should be lumped together.

yeah, it devalues DEs as a whole, but only because their value was artificially inflated to begin with, by having a portion of them shifted to another position. it also gives more value to LBs, a position where you could easily find production on waivers most weeks, in most leagues. so there should be a bit more balance between the groups, too.

the only downside i see is that a top DE would be worth more compared to offense without true position, and true position doesn't bump up LBs enough for them to take their place, so the most valuable IDP will be worth a bit less, compared to an offensive counterpart. while this is less than ideal, the disparity in value is already big enough that this doesn't influence IDP values as a whole all that much, if at all.

what are your thoughts? what am i missing?

[Peener]

Agree with all of it. The only thing I have noticed is that in my IDP leagues, LB value has of course gone up, but people's perceived value of their DE's (especially top ones) hasn't gone down despite the saturation of the position. No one wants to sell for any less than their asking price before the change. I think it might take a season or two before the values start to adjust properly (at least for my leagues anyway).

[killer_of_giants]

yeah, looks like it isn't much of a controversy at all, really!

[stick3925]

I think it has the potential to change the landscape significantly depending on the size of the league and the starting requirements. I run a 16-team league that requires 2 starting LBs and you can flex a 3rd. Looking at scoring from last season I think roughly 10-15 of the top 50 LBs in that league got switched to DL. The potential implication of that is that the DL market could be saturated, and on the surface it looks like it will deplete LB depth. It used to be that you could find a starting LB on waivers all season in that league. I think that will now flip to DL. It obviously won't be as much of an issue in 12-team leagues, but I think I the league I mentioned it could change the positional value landscape quite a bit.

The other issue I don't like is that (as I mentioned above) it seems like it is decreasing DL value and increasing LB value, which is the opposite of how it is in the NFL, which I know isn't a big deal for some but I personally don't care for it.

This is all just speculation at this point and we shall see how it actually plays out over the course of the season.

[Peener]

yeah, looks like it isn't much of a controversy at all, really!

lol. Just the nature of it being on the IDP forum. It's a shame IDP isn't as popular.

[lukkynumber13]

I realize some of you have already heard me belabor this point, but I absolutely detest true position.

I understand the logic of people that defend it - TJ Watt is much more akin to Myles Garrett than he is to Roquan Smith obviously, but I don’t like the fact that now Bobby Okereke is worth more than most edge defenders in the league.

[killer_of_giants]

The other issue I don't like is that (as I mentioned above) it seems like it is decreasing DL value and increasing LB value, which is the opposite of how it is in the NFL, which I know isn't a big deal for some but I personally don't care for it.

this is a fair point, but the issue is that you can't completely mimic reality: you can either arbitrarily lump some edge rushers with inside LBs (not a big deal for some, but i personally don't care for it) and have DEs being more valuable like in real life, or have edge rushers compete among themselves like in real life and not being as valuable. the blanket is too short!

I realize some of you have already heard me belabor this point, but I absolutely detest true position.

i started this just for you

I understand the logic of people that defend it - TJ Watt is much more akin to Myles Garrett than he is to Roquan Smith obviously, but I don’t like the fact that now Bobby Okereke is worth more than most edge defenders in the league.

there are ways around it though, just as there were ways around tj watt being a LB and scoring less than alex singleton. add a DE position, adjust scoring. sure, it needs a bit of tweaking and nobody likes change, but it's nothing that can't be fixed. also, DE fantasy production is still more correlated to actual talent than LB fantasy production.

i play in a league where we start 1DT, 3DE and 2LBs (plus DBs and flex). 20 teams. i picked up perryman from waivers a couple of seasons ago. al-shaair, kaden ellis and terrel bernard are currently on waivers (i know, FA locked for 6 months sucks balls and isn't dynasty, but that's not the point at the moment). non-stud LBs value isn't all that much, while i still manage to sell von miller for two 3rds during last year's draft.

[stick3925]

I was actually going to post something about making adjustments. In my 16-team league we already adjusted scoring (increased points for sacks and decreased points for tackles) to help offset the change at least a little bit initially ... With the caveat that we may adjust more after seeing how it plays out. I think adjusting the starting requirements are actually a much more impactful method than scoring changes, but I didn't want to get too aggressive before we see how this change truly impacts things.

Also, side note on mimicking reality ... To your point this is already an issue with RBs on the offensive side of things in fantasy. I have actually discussed an idea for a league where you are not required to start a RB and can only start a maximum of 1 in your flex spot to decrease their value, in order to try to help mimic how they are valued in real life.

[killer_of_giants]

I think adjusting the starting requirements are actually a much more impactful method than scoring changes

i think so as well, but no issue in seeing what the adjusted scoring does before going there.

Also, side note on mimicking reality ... To your point this is already an issue with RBs on the offensive side of things in fantasy. I have actually discussed an idea for a league where you are not required to start a RB and can only start a maximum of 1 in your flex spot to decrease their value, in order to try to help mimic how they are valued in real life.

ooof, that might even work too well in devaluing RBs. but i'm a bitch for RBs so i'm fine with them being completely overvalued

[stick3925]

Also, side note on mimicking reality ... To your point this is already an issue with RBs on the offensive side of things in fantasy. I have actually discussed an idea for a league where you are not required to start a RB and can only start a maximum of 1 in your flex spot to decrease their value, in order to try to help mimic how they are valued in real life.

ooof, that might even work too well in devaluing RBs. but i'm a bitch for RBs so i'm fine with them being completely overvalued

It might, but I think it would be a fun experiment to try out.

[Kcarr716]

I realize some of you have already heard me belabor this point, but I absolutely detest true position.

I understand the logic of people that defend it - TJ Watt is much more akin to Myles Garrett than he is to Roquan Smith obviously, but I don’t like the fact that now Bobby Okereke is worth more than most edge defenders in the league.

I entered this thread just to see what you posted and although i am a definitely in favor of true position I think there is value to the discussion that okereke shouldn't be valued with even mid level starting DEs. That said this is occurring because the starting reps are currently framed more around a positional depth based on half of edge players being LBs. Realistically most teams use an average probably of 2 or less LBs on a majority of snaps, probably less than 2 while edge players it is probably above 2 with rotations and whatnot, I think that needs to be represented in starting reqs with solidly more edge starters than lb starters

[Forza_Azzurri]

I just noticed I Simmons got switched to S, which is a net benefit in my league, but leaves me thin at LB. Oh well, what's other people's thoughts on his switch?

[stick3925]

I just noticed I Simmons got switched to S, which is a net benefit in my league, but leaves me thin at LB. Oh well, what's other people's thoughts on his switch?

I read or heard that Simmons has been practicing primarily at free safety early in camp, which probably doesn't bode well for his IDP value in most scoring systems.

[Sinatra's Liver]

And, Zaven Collins got switched to DE. Are the Cards really going to hand over MLB/Green Dot duties to Kyzir White?

[lukkynumber13]

And, Zaven Collins got switched to DE. Are the Cards really going to hand over MLB/Green Dot duties to Kyzir White?

Absolutely, only question (and it’s a legit one) is his health. Dude’s always gotten hurt. If he can play 14-15 games, he might be a top-5 LB this year.