Browns being Browns again? Or bold genius move? Kitchens

[Shcritters]

I’m just hoping they don’t win a bunch of games against soft competition (2nd easiest schedule here on out) and Kitchens saves his job. I’d they indeed hired Kitchens over Arians then the GM should go.

[ArrylT]

One of the problems with QBs today may be something that is also one of the benefits. From what I have been reading/noticing lately it seems that many NFL teams tailor systems brought/influenced strongly from College specifically so that these rookie QBs can play & performs (ie win games) right away. The benefit is wins for the teams and it hides flaws of the rookie QBs at the start, that would be more apparent if they were put into a Pro-Style offence immediately. The negative is that once other teams figure out how to shut down that system the QB has not had enough development to improve & adjust quickly.

So some of these QBs look great at first, and the ones that do not we consider failures - for example Carr, Goff, Brees all had rough 1st years & people were ready to give up on them after 1 year. Meanwhile these QBs on college friendly systems, that look so great Year I, can end up taking multiple steps backwards because of the flaws that were hidden & not worked upon. If you're a QB whose basically been reared on a College Air Raid or Spread offence and have had little practice with a full pro scheme even after a couple of years because your team never bothered to develop that aspect of your game ... because maybe the team is focused on maximizing its playoff window in your rookie contract and not on your long term development.

QBs take years to fully develop, and expecting QBs after 1-2-3 years to be fully conversant & able to handle reading all sorts of defensive schemes, handling different pressures, footwork, mechanics & so forth while not having played in a true Pro style system, is perhaps a flawed concept, both for fantasy owners & NFL fans.

To me it is sort of like a guy driving an automatic car at 55mph on a straight highway, and then suddenly you're making them drive a stick shift around a race track at 100mph and wondering why they cannot make the curves perfectly.

This is not to say that none of this is Baker Mayfields fault - rather just that he may not be mature enough yet to realize he needs to figure out how to develop himself, rather than rely on the Browns to do that for him. There is a reason you hear about QBs getting personal QB coaches to work with them in the off-season and it is because they may need to work on & learn stuff they would perhaps never get from their NFL team.

[notweswelker]

One of the problems with QBs today may be something that is also one of the benefits. From what I have been reading/noticing lately it seems that many NFL teams tailor systems brought/influenced strongly from College specifically so that these rookie QBs can play & performs (ie win games) right away. The benefit is wins for the teams and it hides flaws of the rookie QBs at the start, that would be more apparent if they were put into a Pro-Style offence immediately. The negative is that once other teams figure out how to shut down that system the QB has not had enough development to improve & adjust quickly.

So some of these QBs look great at first, and the ones that do not we consider failures - for example Carr, Goff, Brees all had rough 1st years & people were ready to give up on them after 1 year. Meanwhile these QBs on college friendly systems, that look so great Year I, can end up taking multiple steps backwards because of the flaws that were hidden & not worked upon. If you're a QB whose basically been reared on a College Air Raid or Spread offence and have had little practice with a full pro scheme even after a couple of years because your team never bothered to develop that aspect of your game ... because maybe the team is focused on maximizing its playoff window in your rookie contract and not on your long term development.

QBs take years to fully develop, and expecting QBs after 1-2-3 years to be fully conversant & able to handle reading all sorts of defensive schemes, handling different pressures, footwork, mechanics & so forth while not having played in a true Pro style system, is perhaps a flawed concept, both for fantasy owners & NFL fans.

To me it is sort of like a guy driving an automatic car at 55mph on a straight highway, and then suddenly you're making them drive a stick shift around a race track at 100mph and wondering why they cannot make the curves perfectly.

This is not to say that none of this is Baker Mayfields fault - rather just that he may not be mature enough yet to realize he needs to figure out how to develop himself, rather than rely on the Browns to do that for him. There is a reason you hear about QBs getting personal QB coaches to work with them in the off-season and it is because they may need to work on & learn stuff they would perhaps never get from their NFL team.

That was a really good explanation. I appreciate the perspective and you make a lot of good points.

[ericanadian]

One of the problems with QBs today may be something that is also one of the benefits. From what I have been reading/noticing lately it seems that many NFL teams tailor systems brought/influenced strongly from College specifically so that these rookie QBs can play & performs (ie win games) right away. The benefit is wins for the teams and it hides flaws of the rookie QBs at the start, that would be more apparent if they were put into a Pro-Style offence immediately. The negative is that once other teams figure out how to shut down that system the QB has not had enough development to improve & adjust quickly.

So some of these QBs look great at first, and the ones that do not we consider failures - for example Carr, Goff, Brees all had rough 1st years & people were ready to give up on them after 1 year. Meanwhile these QBs on college friendly systems, that look so great Year I, can end up taking multiple steps backwards because of the flaws that were hidden & not worked upon. If you're a QB whose basically been reared on a College Air Raid or Spread offence and have had little practice with a full pro scheme even after a couple of years because your team never bothered to develop that aspect of your game ... because maybe the team is focused on maximizing its playoff window in your rookie contract and not on your long term development.

QBs take years to fully develop, and expecting QBs after 1-2-3 years to be fully conversant & able to handle reading all sorts of defensive schemes, handling different pressures, footwork, mechanics & so forth while not having played in a true Pro style system, is perhaps a flawed concept, both for fantasy owners & NFL fans.

To me it is sort of like a guy driving an automatic car at 55mph on a straight highway, and then suddenly you're making them drive a stick shift around a race track at 100mph and wondering why they cannot make the curves perfectly.

This is not to say that none of this is Baker Mayfields fault - rather just that he may not be mature enough yet to realize he needs to figure out how to develop himself, rather than rely on the Browns to do that for him. There is a reason you hear about QBs getting personal QB coaches to work with them in the off-season and it is because they may need to work on & learn stuff they would perhaps never get from their NFL team.

Maybe, but pretty sure that Mayfield’s issue was the collapse of an elite offensive line and it was the line and not the offensive system hiding his flaws. Trubisky has looked pretty mediocre from day one and he was under John Fox his first year.

I would also say that the opposite happened with both Carr & Goff. Carr started out in a standard Pro Style offense under Greg Olson and flopped pretty hard. The team moved on to Bill Musgrave who tailored an offense that would focus on the running game and short passes while limiting the downfield shots and Carr was able to appear good. Musgrave got dumped for some internal up and comer and regressed immediately. Goff started under an offense that just lacked any sort of imagination. He was then put into an offense with a solid offensive line and was designed to hide his flaws by limiting deep shots and focusing on the run game and short passes. Goff has seen his offensive line regress and he has also regressed.

[bjd5211]

The Browns OL was certainly a lot better last year, but I wouldn't classify it as "elite".

[trc]

The Browns OL was certainly a lot better last year, but I wouldn't classify it as "elite".

https://www.pff.com/news/pro-2018-nfl-o ... er-week-17

[Lotto4Life]

This is not to say that none of this is Baker Mayfields fault - rather just that he may not be mature enough yet to realize he needs to figure out how to develop himself, rather than rely on the Browns to do that for him. There is a reason you hear about QBs getting personal QB coaches to work with them in the off-season and it is because they may need to work on & learn stuff they would perhaps never get from their NFL team.

I'll throw this out there admitting I don't know the answer, but is he already fully developed?

[Blueboy]

The Browns OL was certainly a lot better last year, but I wouldn't classify it as "elite".

https://www.pff.com/news/pro-2018-nfl-o ... er-week-17

oh PFF

[dynastyninja]

The Browns OL was certainly a lot better last year, but I wouldn't classify it as "elite".

https://www.pff.com/news/pro-2018-nfl-o ... er-week-17

oh PFF

More trustworthy than someone on the DLF forums

[bjd5211]

https://www.pff.com/news/pro-2018-nfl-o ... er-week-17

oh PFF

More trustworthy than someone on the DLF forums

I love PFF but they are hardly the end all be all. Just a very quick look at some of their current rankings they have:

Wentz ranked as the #2 QB this year
CMC as the #2 RB behind Josh Jacobs
Chris Godwin as the #2 WR behind Hill (MT is 4th)

Anyone agree with those rankings?

The Browns OL was quite good last year, but was clearly in line for a major regression on their performance this year even before moving Zeitler. They were a quality group that overachieved, it happens, doesn't make them elite.

[notweswelker]

I love PFF but they are hardly the end all be all. Just a very quick look at some of their current rankings they have:

Wentz ranked as the #2 QB this year
CMC as the #2 RB behind Josh Jacobs
Chris Godwin as the #2 WR behind Hill (MT is 4th)

Anyone agree with those rankings?

The Browns OL was quite good last year, but was clearly in line for a major regression on their performance this year even before moving Zeitler. They were a quality group that overachieved, it happens, doesn't make them elite.

Yeah PFF is a good reference but I agree 100% they are not the end all be all.

I'd have Andy Dalton as my number 1 QB this year. How he survived behind that line without dying is an tale worthy of a 30 for 30 special.

[ericanadian]

oh PFF

More trustworthy than someone on the DLF forums

I love PFF but they are hardly the end all be all. Just a very quick look at some of their current rankings they have:

Wentz ranked as the #2 QB this year
CMC as the #2 RB behind Josh Jacobs
Chris Godwin as the #2 WR behind Hill (MT is 4th)

Anyone agree with those rankings?

The Browns OL was quite good last year, but was clearly in line for a major regression on their performance this year even before moving Zeitler. They were a quality group that overachieved, it happens, doesn't make them elite.

Ranking an offensive unit is different from ranking a single skill position player, but more to the point, which offensive lines would you ranks ahead of the Browns if they were merely good?

[bjd5211]

More trustworthy than someone on the DLF forums

I love PFF but they are hardly the end all be all. Just a very quick look at some of their current rankings they have:

Wentz ranked as the #2 QB this year
CMC as the #2 RB behind Josh Jacobs
Chris Godwin as the #2 WR behind Hill (MT is 4th)

Anyone agree with those rankings?

The Browns OL was quite good last year, but was clearly in line for a major regression on their performance this year even before moving Zeitler. They were a quality group that overachieved, it happens, doesn't make them elite.

Ranking an offensive unit is different from ranking a single skill position player, but more to the point, which offensive lines would you ranks ahead of the Browns if they were merely good?

Eagles, Cowboys (even in a down year for them), Indy, NE, NO, Pittsburgh definitely were better, and there were others on the same level or better. The 10th best OL out of 32 is not "elite", and that is the range they were in, probably a little lower.

Edit: Rams are another one you can put on that list

[Hottoddies]

I love PFF but they are hardly the end all be all. Just a very quick look at some of their current rankings they have:

Wentz ranked as the #2 QB this year
CMC as the #2 RB behind Josh Jacobs
Chris Godwin as the #2 WR behind Hill (MT is 4th)

Anyone agree with those rankings?

The Browns OL was quite good last year, but was clearly in line for a major regression on their performance this year even before moving Zeitler. They were a quality group that overachieved, it happens, doesn't make them elite.

Ranking an offensive unit is different from ranking a single skill position player, but more to the point, which offensive lines would you ranks ahead of the Browns if they were merely good?

Eagles, Cowboys (even in a down year for them), Indy, NE, NO, Pittsburgh definitely were better, and there were others on the same level or better. The 10th best OL out of 32 is not "elite", and that is the range they were in, probably a little lower.

Edit: Rams are another one you can put on that list

I make it a habit of watching every game and from my observation I would add Oakland, San Fransisco, Seattle, Minnesota, Baltimore, and Jacksonville to the list of teams with a better offensive line than Cleveland.

[bjd5211]

Ranking an offensive unit is different from ranking a single skill position player, but more to the point, which offensive lines would you ranks ahead of the Browns if they were merely good?

Eagles, Cowboys (even in a down year for them), Indy, NE, NO, Pittsburgh definitely were better, and there were others on the same level or better. The 10th best OL out of 32 is not "elite", and that is the range they were in, probably a little lower.

Edit: Rams are another one you can put on that list

I make it a habit of watching every game and from my observation I would add Oakland, San Fransisco, Seattle, Minnesota, Baltimore, and Jacksonville to the list of teams with a better offensive line than Cleveland.

This conversation is based upon last year, not this year, and last year Cleveland had a better OL than all of those teams except maybe Baltimore, SF was solid too, but Minnesota was garbage. This year all of those teams are quality OLs, and Cleveland is terrible.