Le'Veon Bell

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thebeast
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Re: Le'Veon Bell

Postby thebeast » Sat Nov 10, 2018 7:34 am

Cameron Giles wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 6:31 am
AussieMate wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 10:25 pm
I think it's absolutely fair to wonder if Bell really is as good as made out. We talk about his patience but we would call it hesitation if he did it behind alot of other olines, it will be interesting next year if he can still put together a top 5 RB season.
Are Ezekiel Elliott and Todd Gurley not be as good as we think? They've both run behind some elite offensive lines.

You definitely can't run with that quick hesitation style if you're getting hit in the backfield all the time. Offensive line always matters. Aside from maybe Barry Sanders, there's no RB who consistently outperformed the guys upfront. But, there are clear traits that separate the elite RB's from the ones who are benefitting from scheme and talent up front. It's why we knew Todd Gurley was really good despite him putting up middling numbers before Sean McVay arrived and the offensive line improved.
Gurley looks better than Brown when he spells Gurley. Zeke looks better than Smith. First DWill and now Connor look as good as or better than Bell has. It’s clear you own Bell and want him to be elite, but comparing his performance to other RBs who have replaced him don’t support him being a far superior talent, the evidence supports the Steelers offense as being a very RB friendly situation.
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Re: Le'Veon Bell

Postby Pullo Vision » Sat Nov 10, 2018 8:32 am

thebeast wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 7:34 am
Gurley looks better than Brown when he spells Gurley. Zeke looks better than Smith. First DWill and now Connor look as good as or better than Bell has. It’s clear you own Bell and want him to be elite, but comparing his performance to other RBs who have replaced him don’t support him being a far superior talent, the evidence supports the Steelers offense as being a very RB friendly situation.
The number of times this "you have player x so your opinion is worthless" line gets used is ridiculous. I had the opportunity to draft Bell this offseason and passed. Dont have him anywhere but I can tell he has elite traits. DWill did well enough, but he was up and down game wise- https://www.pro-football-reference.com/ ... elog/2015/. Let's see DWill maintain himself as an elite performer for as many years Bell has before saying he looked "as good as or better" than Bell.
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Re: Le'Veon Bell

Postby ArrylT » Sat Nov 10, 2018 8:37 am

Except Deangelo Williams & James Conner had better college production / draft pedigree than Rod Smith or Malcolm Brown*

We can still see, as shown with Adrian Peterson, that good to great talents even in their twilight can still produce in the right situation. So comparing Williams to Smith or Brown seems wrong. Williams has had a very successful career - even if not a great one due to all that time sharing with Stewart - whereas I think Smith & Brown are NFL calibre backs in the sense that they can play in the NFL and have roles but they are not equivalent to Williams or Conner, even if you put them behind Pittsburghs line.

James Conners battle with cancer and injury in College may have affected how people saw Conner coming out. I recall a lot of people being down on him and feeling he was just a JAG and a lot of that was based off of his 2016 tape. But Conner is back or as close to being back to what he was before Cancer & the MCL then that would explain a lot. And his being a talent does not diminish Le'veon Bell past few years in any way just as Le'Veon Bells success does not diminish Jerome Bettis or Rashard Mendenhall.

I think comparing Conner to Bell is sort of like comparing Hines Ward to Antonio Brown. No one that I recall thought AB would be as good as Ward when he first broke out - but now that he has that does not make him better or worse than Ward - just different. Same with Conner vs. Bell - this argument may give the impression of diminishing the talents & achievements of both backs by suggesting both are only the product of 'the system' - when rather both have plenty of talent regardless and their fantasy success is in part due to the situation. The situation plays into the success but is not the only reason for the success.

The Beatles were best as the Beatles but that does not diminish their individual skills as John Lennon, Paul McCartney, Ringo Starr & George Harrison. Heck some might even prefer McCartney with the Wings over his Beatles work ...

Finally James Conner has fully embraced the Yinzer culture and that could have some impact on his success.

Of course and just to mess with peoples minds - I am sure some Penny & RoJo owners are wishing Penny or RoJo had been drafted by Pittsburgh right about now ... ;)

* - I am a believer in Brown so this is not a dig against Brown just an acknowledgement that he is good not great nor elite.
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Re: Le'Veon Bell

Postby thebeast » Sat Nov 10, 2018 8:43 am

Pullo Vision wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 8:32 am
thebeast wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 7:34 am
Gurley looks better than Brown when he spells Gurley. Zeke looks better than Smith. First DWill and now Connor look as good as or better than Bell has. It’s clear you own Bell and want him to be elite, but comparing his performance to other RBs who have replaced him don’t support him being a far superior talent, the evidence supports the Steelers offense as being a very RB friendly situation.
The number of times this "you have player x so your opinion is worthless" line gets used is ridiculous. I had the opportunity to draft Bell this offseason and passed. Dont have him anywhere but I can tell he has elite traits. DWill did well enough, but he was up and down game wise- https://www.pro-football-reference.com/ ... elog/2015/. Let's see DWill maintain himself as an elite performer for as many years Bell has before saying he looked "as good as or better" than Bell.
So you are saying Connor doesn’t look like and elite RB currently? He has performed every bit as well as Bell did and it isn’t a small sample size. I really don’t know what to tell you or Bell owners who choose to just dismiss what is actually happening.

And re: the you own the guys so your opinion can’t be trusted; it’s totally valid around here. I can’t believe that anyone would be this dug in on Bell unless they are heavily invested in him. The owner bias is completely out of control. The biggest issue on this forum is the advice and opinion of posters who play in one or a few leagues, they are extremely biased towards the players they own most of it is due to nothing more than hope, which completely dilutes the quality of discussion around here.

Ive always thought it would be great if there was a way to require disclosures on these forums before people post their opinion. While I play in many leagues, my disclosures for this thread would be - Shares: Bell = 0, Connor = 0. I’m just calling it like I see it and honestly with where both are as players neither interest me as long term assets.
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Re: Le'Veon Bell

Postby skip » Sat Nov 10, 2018 11:38 am

thebeast wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 7:34 am
DWill and now Connor look as good as or better than Bell has.
DeWill never liked anything like Bell. Not even remotely even if all you do is read box scores. If one did concede that Conner has at times looked as good... Better? No way. He's definitely put up surprising numbers but he doesn't look as good as Bell.
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Re: Le'Veon Bell

Postby Cameron Giles » Sat Nov 10, 2018 4:29 pm

thebeast wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 7:34 am
Gurley looks better than Brown when he spells Gurley. Zeke looks better than Smith. First DWill and now Connor look as good as or better than Bell has. It’s clear you own Bell and want him to be elite, but comparing his performance to other RBs who have replaced him don’t support him being a far superior talent, the evidence supports the Steelers offense as being a very RB friendly situation.
I've owned Bell before, but don't own him currently. I don't want him to be elite; I know he's elite. There's something wrong if you can't see the elite football skills and traits that Le'Veon Bell possesses. He's not a product of a system. Put down the box scores and watch the games.

We haven't seen a full season of the Rams without Gurley or Dallas without Zeke. But this is what Alfred Morris did in 6 games without Zeke last year: 99 carries, 430 yards, 4.38 YPC.

So is Zeke a product of a system and a line? No.

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Re: Le'Veon Bell

Postby Cameron Giles » Sat Nov 10, 2018 4:39 pm

thebeast wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 8:43 am
So you are saying Connor doesn’t look like and elite RB currently? He has performed every bit as well as Bell did and it isn’t a small sample size. I really don’t know what to tell you or Bell owners who choose to just dismiss what is actually happening.

And re: the you own the guys so your opinion can’t be trusted; it’s totally valid around here. I can’t believe that anyone would be this dug in on Bell unless they are heavily invested in him. The owner bias is completely out of control. The biggest issue on this forum is the advice and opinion of posters who play in one or a few leagues, they are extremely biased towards the players they own most of it is due to nothing more than hope, which completely dilutes the quality of discussion around here.

Ive always thought it would be great if there was a way to require disclosures on these forums before people post their opinion. While I play in many leagues, my disclosures for this thread would be - Shares: Bell = 0, Connor = 0. I’m just calling it like I see it and honestly with where both are as players neither interest me as long term assets.
This whole thing is confusing. I don't get how anyone can imply that Bell is a system RB, but that Conner is actually an elite RB. It makes no sense. One of them has done it for 4 years and the other has a 10 game stretch.

Any team with a great offensive line is RB-friendly. It's why Malcolm Brown has good production in limited carries and why Alfred Morris had great production when Zeke sat. It's why RB is the most expendable position in the league. You don't need a HOF RB to have an effective run game. But, when you do have one it's obvious what sepearates them from the average backs in tremendous situations.

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Re: Le'Veon Bell

Postby thebeast » Sat Nov 10, 2018 4:57 pm

^ who said Connor was elite? I think he’s a guy in a great offense. But I think that offense makes Connor look elite, as it did Bell. Don’t get me wrong, I think Bellnis a better RB than Connor, but I don’t think he will come close to producing what he has outside of Pittsburgh.
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Re: Le'Veon Bell

Postby Phaded » Sat Nov 10, 2018 6:13 pm

Schefter reporting Bell is unlikely to report by deadline.
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Re: Le'Veon Bell

Postby Cameron Giles » Sat Nov 10, 2018 6:18 pm

Such a weird decision.

It'll be interesting to see what the CBA effect of this truthfully is.

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Re: Le'Veon Bell

Postby jenkins.math » Sat Nov 10, 2018 7:01 pm

Cameron Giles wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 6:18 pm
Such a weird decision.

It'll be interesting to see what the CBA effect of this truthfully is.
There will be zero affect. This is an isolated incident that I dont think players will follow. This is similar to the NBA and Brandon Jennings playing pro ball in Europe instead of going to college for a year and then heading to the NBA. All the analysts thought he would start a new trend. Nah, never happened.
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Re: Le'Veon Bell

Postby thebeast » Sat Nov 10, 2018 7:16 pm

Cameron Giles wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 6:18 pm
Such a weird decision.

It'll be interesting to see what the CBA effect of this truthfully is.
It’s not weird at all, it has made total sense all along. Surprising you haven’t realized that.
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Re: Le'Veon Bell

Postby Bot101 » Sat Nov 10, 2018 7:22 pm

thebeast wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 4:57 pm
^ who said Connor was elite? I think he’s a guy in a great offense. But I think that offense makes Connor look elite, as it did Bell. Don’t get me wrong, I think Bellnis a better RB than Connor, but I don’t think he will come close to producing what he has outside of Pittsburgh.
This. I always like to invest in talent over situation. Situation can always change, talent typically doesnt. If you can flip Conner into an actual elite player I would do it so fast.
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Re: Le'Veon Bell

Postby Cameron Giles » Sat Nov 10, 2018 8:45 pm

thebeast wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 7:16 pm
Cameron Giles wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 6:18 pm
Such a weird decision.

It'll be interesting to see what the CBA effect of this truthfully is.
It’s not weird at all, it has made total sense all along. Surprising you haven’t realized that.
My opinion is largely influenced by what's in the CBA, which apparently doesn't mean anything.

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Re: Le'Veon Bell

Postby thebeast » Sat Nov 10, 2018 9:03 pm

Cameron Giles wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 8:45 pm
thebeast wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 7:16 pm
Cameron Giles wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 6:18 pm
Such a weird decision.

It'll be interesting to see what the CBA effect of this truthfully is.
It’s not weird at all, it has made total sense all along. Surprising you haven’t realized that.
My opinion is largely influenced by what's in the CBA, which apparently doesn't mean anything.
I think you just read a small portion and it’s probably a very big document so like anyone would, you missed some nuances.
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