Confronted with the temptation to protest a trade

[stoneghost28]

My issue is that I just took over an orphan in a league where one owner has clearly steam rolled the league. Checking out his roster, he owns essentially 16 of the top 25 guys in a typical start up in a 22 man roster league. Great job, you're a genius, excellent performance, no doubt. The problem is, how do you accomplish this in just two years (the league started in 2016). It seems you either do it with rube owners, collusion, sock puppets or some other approach.

Looking through his trades this year, he's won every one (for now) pretty convincingly, but two of them stand out as particularly bad.

1.) When the league was still filling up with renewals two months ago he somehow managed to trade the 3.10 in this years rookie draft for Evan Engram. I don't know how this is possible without it being an accident or collusion.

2.) This morning he traded Melvin Gordon, Jarvis Landry, Josh Doctson and Kyle Rudolph, for Odell Beckham, Marcus Mariota, Taywan Taylor, Kendall Wright (to even up the numbers to avoid going over roster limits) a '19 2nd, and a '20 1st from a particularly bad team.

At this stage his first choice lineup (with two first off the bench guys in parenthesis) can be:

QB: Mariota (Carr)
RB1: A. Kamara
RB2: K. Hunt
WR1: D. Hopkins
WR2: A. Brown
WR3: OBJ
Flex: D. Cook (A. Cooper)
TE: E. Engram

So the run for the title is over and it's not even June. The only way he's not winning a title is if he sustains serious injuries to several key components (it has happened to me before).

My question is: When is it okay to protest a trade in your view?

For me, I've never registered a protest in nearly 20 years of playing Keeper and Dynasty leagues. But in the past three years I've run into three leagues in which there was a serious question as to whether collusion, the use of sock puppets, or the mass exploitation of newbies was happening. Nothing's been proven in any of these three leagues (and in one of them it's driven two owners into Stalinesque levels of paranoia which has ruined the chemistry of the league and almost totally shut down trade activity for nearly half the owners).

I bought the orphan because I liked the core of the team (nice collection of WR's sprinkled between about 10th and 30th in the rankings, and some young prospect TE's, plus the 1.03 and 2.03 and 3.03 which was enough ammo to do something interesting), but I never bothered to look to see what had taken place with this one team. Now that I have I've got major buyers remorse and probably will give it up for the orphan sale next year after trying to build it into the strongest side possible to collect a reasonable fee.

But again, my question remains. As someone who has never protested a trade despite playing in hundreds of leagues, I've got serious qualms about this trade and whats happening in this league as the competitive balance is essentially non-existant, and there is a major risk of mass departures (heck I'm seriously considering it). What would you do in a situation like this?

Stiffen your upper lip, quit whining to yourself and compete.

Move on after the year.

Register a protest?

Something else?

Not sure what to do.

Sorry about the longwinded post.

[Needalife]

So if I'm correct, your issue is with the 2 trades described, correct? You can't hate on him for having a good team so I'm taking that off the table. Plus, he isn't stacked at QB at least You know he'll get Rodgers and Wentz next!

The Engram trade is terrible. Just really bad. This one could be questioned and I cannot find an explanation that makes remote sense. The 2nd deal isn't great but is somewhat ok if an owner was bullish on Gordon/Landry. I know it's OBJ but he can be bought reasonably as is the case here even though I would not sell OBJ for that.

If it was me, I'd play out the year and then check out if it doesn't get better.

[myndflyte]

I would probably at least raise some suspicions, or maybe talk to other league mates or at least to commissioner to see if they are in line with your thinking. Or at least get an idea of why the commissioner doesn't think these are lopsided trades. I mean those are some pretty ridiculous trades. Did both of those trades happen with the same team? Because then I would be even more suspicious about collusion. If this sort of stuff continues to happen, I'd probably just cut my losses and move on next year.

[BigBawseRoss]

i just wouldnt be in a league where one team is being handed the trophy. like you said just get out after 1 year and forget it ever happened haha

the trade you are mad about currently doesnt seem that bad, the 3rd from engram would make me more mad lol.

[Cult of Dionysus]

There's a lot of bad leagues out there, filled with bad owners, bad commissioners, bad rules, bad graphics, etc. Ultimately it is YOUR responsibility to due YOUR diligence before joining any league, especially when taking on a rebuild. In a way, it is easier to see what you are getting into when you're taking over an orphan, as the league has a track record that can be looked at. That isn't the case for new leagues, where it can be a bit of a crap shoot.

I'd urge everyone who doesn't really have a ton of experience with leagues to review Jules' sticky in the Help Wanted section. It gives a lot of good advice.

[stoneghost28]

So if I'm correct, your issue is with the 2 trades described, correct? You can't hate on him for having a good team so I'm taking that off the table. Plus, he isn't stacked at QB at least You know he'll get Rodgers and Wentz next!

The Engram trade is terrible. Just really bad. This one could be questioned and I cannot find an explanation that makes remote sense. The 2nd deal isn't great but is somewhat ok if an owner was bullish on Gordon/Landry. I know it's OBJ but he can be bought reasonably as is the case here even though I would not sell OBJ for that.

If it was me, I'd play out the year and then check out if it doesn't get better.

I know, and agree, don't want to be spoiled with jealousy, but I also don't want to play in leagues where I believe either collusion is happening, or people are epic rubes and are being exploited by people taking advantage of the fact that trade protests are just so weak, and ridiculous (and most of us have seen countless leagues ruined by spurious protests, often engendered simply by envy).

My problem here is the league just seems broken.

And btw, it's the Engram trade that's particularly bad, and makes zero sense. Today's trade was a horrible trade as well, but as DTC shows, losing a trade 87-55 (which was about the score on this one), is bad, but it's not automatically collusion. The problem I have with it, is the newbie took all the risk in the trade, and shipped off the best assets (OBJ, and a future pick almost guaranteed to be top 2-3) and what did he get back? The prime piece is a RB who could be out of a job in a year, and some mediocre prospects. But still, it's the engram trade that's the real problem.

This owner is just damn good with his trades, and he's found a league with enough guys that just don't seem to get market value, fair enough, good job for the smart and astute owner, but it's a major problem for the league and the league's only entering it's third season.

Considering this is now the third league I've been in with this problem, I don't really know how to handle it since I've always been 100% against trade protests unless:

#1 Collusion
#2 Trade radically imbalances the league (for instance, a guy trades Taywan Taylor and Isaiah Crowell, to a guy for OBJ and and a 2nd round rookie pick, that kind of thing) and is essentially exploitation of a guy who doesn't understand how to play.

[stoneghost28]

i just wouldnt be in a league where one team is being handed the trophy. like you said just get out after 1 year and forget it ever happened haha

the trade you are mad about currently doesnt seem that bad, the 3rd from engram would make me more mad lol.

Oh I agree. Today's trade just compounded an already bad situation. I just joined the league, immediately got bombarded by this guy with subpar deals like the one this new orphan owner took. I declined all of them as they were obvious losers, but this other new owner accepted. Fair enough. It's not a trade that immediately makes you think it's collusion or a sock puppet (Like Gurley and Mixon for Chris Thompson and Crowell or something like that), but it's a lost trade from the jump.

I looked through his trades so far that I can access this offseason:

Traded the 1.02 and 2.10 for Hunt.
He wins, pretty convincingly, but there's an argument for the other side. No collusion.

Traded the 3.10 for Engram.

Collusion, mistake, or an owner doesn't understand what a 3.10 rookie pick is worth.

Traded Jay Ajayi and a 2020 2nd (it's his so it should be 2.10 to 2.12)
for a 2019 2nd (it's a rebuilding squad so it's top 5 in round 2) and a 2020 1st (rebuilding squad so probably top 5).

He won that one. Again, no appearance of collusion, just another owner agreeing to a bad deal.

Traded a 2019 and 2020 1sts (they're his, so they'll be bottom 3 in round 1 or thereabouts) and Donte Moncrief for Amari Cooper

Superficially a reasonable trade unless you spent even 1 second examining his roster before the trade, then you would have realized you were being taken to the cleaners in this one as well. No collusion based on the available evidence, and superficially fair.

And today's trade which I already mentioned.

Only guy that was a repeat customer was the guy who owned Hunt and Engram, otherwise, 3 different owners.

So I don't really see collusion, I just see guys that don't really get dynasty, and/or guys that just aren't the best at it. Except for the Engram trade which I'm seeing as a mistake, because it makes zero sense (and every other trade I've seen the guy make is reasonable) and I don't get why the trade wasn't rolled back. Personally, if someone obviously accidentally did something, I return the assets for the good of the league (don't want it to get poisonous and filled with negative attitudes that will kill the league anyway, rendering the gain useless over time).

Anyway, it's a problem I've noticed, and now I've found another league with it. Quite frustrating.

In another league a guy habitually offers 4th-7th round rookie picks for top 25 start up players, clearly doesn't know what he's doing, and doesn't respond to questions and concerns brought up, and he recently traded Lev Bell and Graham for Tate, Ajayi, Brees and a 3rd. He is also distorting that league because whenever he does end up making a deal, it's one he loses 90-10, or like that one 80-20 (or 75-25 if you feel like being generous).

[stoneghost28]

There's a lot of bad leagues out there, filled with bad owners, bad commissioners, bad rules, bad graphics, etc. Ultimately it is YOUR responsibility to due YOUR diligence before joining any league, especially when taking on a rebuild. In a way, it is easier to see what you are getting into when you're taking over an orphan, as the league has a track record that can be looked at. That isn't the case for new leagues, where it can be a bit of a crap shoot.

I'd urge everyone who doesn't really have a ton of experience with leagues to review Jules' sticky in the Help Wanted section. It gives a lot of good advice.

With this league, because it was hosted offsite, I couldn't access anything save the rosters, which I should have looked more closely at. I couldn't see the transactions until I officially bought the orphan, that's when alarm bells went off.

[WhatWouldDitkaDo]

Traded the 1.02 and 2.10 for Hunt.
This is a very fair trade.

Traded the 3.10 for Engram.
Yeah, this is pretty bad.

Traded Jay Ajayi and a 2020 2nd for a 2019 2nd and a 2020 1st
This seems fine to me.

Traded a 2019 and 2020 1sts (they're his, so they'll be bottom 3 in round 1 or thereabouts) and Donte Moncrief for Amari Cooper
I see no issue with this one either.

The only one that's really bad to me is the Engram trade, which is likely due to that one owner being inexperienced. I see no issue with the other trades that you think are "clear wins", as I think they're pretty fair. I think you're frustrated that you joined a league where one owner has a crazy stacked team, which is understandable. However, my answer is if you think these owners aren't good, then go make a bunch of trade offers and build the team you want that can compete with this other owner in a year or two.

[skip]

Traded Jay Ajayi and a 2020 2nd (it's his so it should be 2.10 to 2.12)
for a 2019 2nd (it's a rebuilding squad so it's top 5 in round 2) and a 2020 1st (rebuilding squad so probably top 5).

He won that one. Again, no appearance of collusion, just another owner agreeing to a bad deal.

Traded a 2019 and 2020 1sts (they're his, so they'll be bottom 3 in round 1 or thereabouts) and Donte Moncrief for Amari Cooper

Superficially a reasonable trade unless you spent even 1 second examining his roster before the trade, then you would have realized you were being taken to the cleaners in this one as well. No collusion based on the available evidence, and superficially fair.

I would never protest trades but there is definitely an issue with this league in that I would question the experience/knowledge of the owners. The two trades above are perfectly fair. I've seen Ajayi valued by some as a middle 1st round pick in 2018. Getting a 1st round pick back that is 2 years out is worth less than that and there is no way to project where that picks will land. With the 2nd trade, I wouldn't pay a pair of 1sts for Cooper no mayyer how good my roster is...a 1st and a 2nd I would.

[stoneghost28]

Last two posts reinforce why I don't protest trades. There are a wide variety of valuations out there on guys. And I do agree w/the sentiment that other than the Engram trade, if you are against protests (and I am), none of the trades I listed are really protest worthy other than Engram. I would add the one this morning (the Beckham one), but at the same time, there are reasonable arguments on it, which is why on the DTC calculator it isn't 18-1, like the Engram trade, but rather 87-55, which while bad, isn't collusion or absurd.

I would add that this isn't a case of me being envious, I fully acknowledge the guy has a stacked team, has been reasonable and fair in discussing trades with me, they were just trades that were to his advantage, not mine, more power to you, some will agree to that sorta thing, i wont, unless I sharply disagree w/market value (which is why I traded Shepard and D. Westbrook for the 2.01 and 2.06, superficially I lose, but I don't buy Shepard as anything more than a middling slot guy in a very busy passing offense w/o much targets for him, and Westbrook as stuck in a run first offense with 5 WR's all having similar status (Moncrief, Cole, Westbrook, Chark, Lee). It's not envy, it's concern that the league is broken.

I get why one wouldn't take my word for it, but this is a problem that has cropped up in individual leagues that I've joined once or twice a year for three years going, and had never really been a problem for me before 2016. For whatever reason I never ran into these issues in leagues pretty much at all between '98-'15.

[skip]

I get why one wouldn't take my word for it, but this is a problem that has cropped up in individual leagues that I've joined once or twice a year for three years going, and had never really been a problem for me before 2016. For whatever reason I never ran into these issues in leagues pretty much at all between '98-'15.

Major influx of new owners to dynasty that need to stick with their office redraft leagues.

[stoneghost28]

I get why one wouldn't take my word for it, but this is a problem that has cropped up in individual leagues that I've joined once or twice a year for three years going, and had never really been a problem for me before 2016. For whatever reason I never ran into these issues in leagues pretty much at all between '98-'15.

Major influx of new owners to dynasty that need to stick with their office redraft leagues.

I kinda wonder if it's something like that, or connected to DFS, and people kind of jumping into dynasty because they like other platforms.

The timing is kinda funny. To play almost 20 years, with problems being exceptionally rare, and then to have a pile up of problems all beginning exactly when DFS went nuclear makes me wonder.

Perhaps Dynasty in general has been a part of the revival and people aren't typically compulsive researchers like I am, and like others are (i listen to a ton of dynasty podcasts, get DLF and rotoviz etc), and I wouldn't make a move in dynasty when I first started playing back in '15 until I'd studied the hell out of it. I imagine most people aren't like that (not to suggest I'm some genius, I did productive struggle and have been paying for teams with winnings out of RSO, Keeper and Salary cap leagues while I build up my dynasty squads, so who knows, maybe I stink too, early results haven't been good, though my rosters are looking pretty good at this point).

[lukkynumber13]

As others have said, the ONLY trade that was bad was the Engram one. I actually feel like this owner might've lost some of the ones that you mentioned as huge wins!

[MEuRaH]

If the Gordon/OBJ trade happened, and the owner was on the LOSING end of this deal, would you be complaining?

If the answer is no, then you're going too far with this. You seem to be hating a guy because he just made his great team even better.

Trading is an art form. Some are great at it, some are not, but that's the whole point of dynasty and what makes it fun.

It sounds like you are hating on one guy and jealous of his deals, so even if the answer to the question I asked above is "yes", you are still wrong to want to limit another owner simply because "he's doing too good".

You gotta stfu and go get yours!