Cooper Kupp - Value Up?

[_yeti]

Randy Moss changed the way the NFL played defense as a whole. He was so good that he changed an entire system to try to stop him. This is very similar to the Jordan/Lebron debate imo, strangely I am on the Jordan side in that one, but I digress. That just shows how much room there is for debate, bc is either answer truly wrong? It was different eras.

If you put Moss, Julio, Calvin into that era they would shred everything like Bo Jackson in Techmo Bowl. That is just the nature of sports, athletes get bigger, stronger, faster.

Even if Moss is the greatest it is a 1a, 1b thing. Like, the only spot where I can call both the GOAT.

Also, this whole dedication/natural talent thing, Moss WAS dedicated. He just appeared less so because he was so defiant to say the typical athlete thing, to do the lying song and dance with the media. Everything he said is stuff other athletes think, he just said it and it pissed people off. I don't doubt that some worked harder than Moss, and Rice is included in that for sure, but that isn't what we love about these players. Point is, natural talent is the building block of what we love about them. Sure we love craft and technique as well but as a previous poster said, that is all relative to how much athletic talent you ha

It's all relative. I'm not mad at either being called the greatest haha but Randy IS the greatest.

[ninotoreS]

If you put Moss, Julio, Calvin into that era they would shred everything like Bo Jackson in Techmo Bowl.

As someone who owned Megatron in dynasty, I disagree. Obviously Calvin was a freak, but he still had clear trouble with a few rare cornerbacks just 1v1, most notably Peanut Tillman.

Tillman wouldn't have stopped Jerry Rice.

Guys like Moss and Calvin never actually had to develop the football IQ and absolute mastery of craft that Rice did. They had their cheat-code to lean on, and kind of ironically, doing so capped their dominance. When you're taller, longer, stronger, and faster than everyone else, you can skate a bit on the other stuff. Jerry Rice didn't.

You bet your bleep Rice could've taught Moss and Calvin a thing or two, made them even better. Terrell Owens owes his career to Jerry Rice's tutelage; he was nothing special in college, and then Rice showed him how to play proper.

I also disagree that Moss 'changed the way the NFL played defense'. Modern defenses certainly have changed, adapted to today's passing-game boom, but it wasn't the WRs who forced it. Modern quarterbacks getting better at pre-snap reads and audibling with no-huddle offense did that, along with NFL OCs opening up their playbooks and their minds to incorporate some innovative NCAA pioneered concepts into the pro game. Moss was the beneficiary of all this because he came into the league right when it was happening.

[Valhalla]

You bet your bleep Rice could've taught Moss and Calvin a thing or two, made them even better. Terrell Owens owes his career to Jerry Rice's tutelage; he was nothing special in college, and then Rice showed him how to play proper.

Oh did he teach Owens about stickem?

[_yeti]

I also disagree that Moss 'changed the way the NFL played defense'. Modern defenses certainly have changed, adapted to today's passing-game boom, but it wasn't the WRs who forced it. Modern quarterbacks getting better at pre-snap reads and audibling with no-huddle offense did that, along with NFL OCs opening up their playbooks and their minds to incorporate some innovative NCAA pioneered concepts into the pro game. Moss was the beneficiary of all this because he came into the league right when it was happening.

What I meant was that Moss took the top off a defense like none before and played with a size, speed, hands combo that the world had never seen. It forced defenses to change as he was the wave of the future and could score 5TDs if you guarded him in what until that time was a traditional way. Also, Jordan wasnt the best because he was the most technical player of all time. Far from it. It was because he dunked on everyone and couldnt be stopped. That and he wanted it more than anyone, he always had another level to go to. Moss may be lacking in that regard and that along with stats (but in a different era in a more nuanced team sport of football) lead to the debate.

http://www.espn.com/blog/nfcnorth/post/ ... -game-more
"In short, Moss might well have changed the game to a greater degree than Rice did. To be clear, the West Coast scheme Rice helped popularize forced fundamental transformations from NFL defenses. But Moss has never been part of a revolutionary scheme. The changes he effected resulted from his unique individual skills. As Moss once joked during his time in Minnesota, the offenses he played in were best called "Moss, Go Deep."

As we discussed in 2011, when he announced a retirement that became a one-year hiatus, Moss forced opponents to develop and enhance new coverages to cover him. At the time, brackets, clouds and regular safeties over the top were exotic defenses rarely seen in the NFL. Moss forced them on a weekly basis."

"Well, I think over the course of my career," he said, "it's not very smart for an offense to design a whole offense [around me] knowing that I'm going to be taking two and three and four guys here and there, on each and every play. It's hard for me to be able to put up numbers knowing that I have multiple guys guarding me on plays. But what I've been able to do, I'm happy with it."

[...] (Moss said Wednesday, via ESPN's Rick Reilly, that: "Jerry Rice had two hall of fame QBs his whole career. Give me that and see where my numbers are."

[ericanadian]

Moss quit on two teams, and twice was on the losing end of a Superbowl where his team was heavily favoured. In Rice's worst Superbowl performance, he put up 77 yards and a TD on 8 targets (when he was 40). Moss' best was 75 yards and a TD on 13 targets.

Disagree with it, if you want, but there's a reason Moss was tagged with a reputation for folding when things got tough.

[_yeti]

Moss quit on two teams, and twice was on the losing end of a Superbowl where his team was heavily favoured. In Rice's worst Superbowl performance, he put up 77 yards and a TD on 8 targets (when he was 40). Moss' best was 75 yards and a TD on 13 targets.

Disagree with it, if you want, but there's a reason Moss was tagged with a reputation for folding when things got tough.

I think the quit on teams thing is up for debate, and also that's the problem with team sports, what coverage did he face on those 13 targets? How many balls were poorly thrown, over time we only see the numbers. Individual sports are better for telling who is the best bc you aren't subject to game planning around multiple guys just stopping one person. Any defensive coach will tell you that they can take one guy out of the game but the better they are the more assets they have to give up to do so.

The MVP of the Pats/Giants Bowl he played in was the Giants DLine as they absolutely destroyed the Pats Oline that had held up all year. Brady had no room to work all game. And the 49ers? Come on man, how dubious to list that as a knock on his resume. That is like knocking Jordan's career highlights by pointing out his time with the Wizards.

[Jason3123]

Kupp is a nice WR but from a fantasy sense what is his realistic upside? If Sammy continues to get hurt/doesn't resign with LA, then I can see a scenario where Kupp all of a sudden does have serious PPR potential. Otherwise to me he's a depth play at best..maybe a bye week fill in for you. Or if you can start 4+ WR's. If Sammy is in the lineup, he becomes a 3rd option (behind Gurley), and still has to compete against Woods, tight end. I also don't see a scenario where Kupp can support two prominent fantasy WR's.

[Cameron Giles]

Kupp is a nice WR but from a fantasy sense what is his realistic upside? If Sammy continues to get hurt/doesn't resign with LA, then I can see a scenario where Kupp all of a sudden does have serious PPR potential. Otherwise to me he's a depth play at best..maybe a bye week fill in for you. Or if you can start 4+ WR's. If Sammy is in the lineup, he becomes a 3rd option (behind Gurley), and still has to compete against Woods, tight end. I also don't see a scenario where Kupp can support two prominent fantasy WR's.

Yeah, I don't think his upside is that high. He's already 24, which is the same age as a lot of WR's who've played in the NFL that we've written off. He should be a solid player though.

[ninotoreS]

His upside is a 100+ catches in a season. Depends on Goff making a major leap at some point, of course. Plenty of TDs also isn't out of the question, because he has the necessary red-zone skills (play-strength, contested catch ability, etc).

As for Watkins, D-Jax's vertical role in McVay's offense averaged 6 targets a week. I do expect that to go up a bit with Watkins, say to 7 or 8 targets a week, but the point is it hasn't been a target-hog role. Watkins alone won't keep Kupp from being good in fantasy. In theory, Sammy and Kupp should nicely complement each other, one making big plays vertically while the other moves the chains underneath.

The bigger target-upside threat to Kupp is if Everett/Higbee actually do turn into Jordan Reed 2.0.

He's already 24, which is the same age as a lot of WR's who've played in the NFL that we've written off.

You've written them off not because of the age, but because in those cases you've already seen two or three seasons of them at that point and measured the result.

The age itself isn't such a problem for a WR, considering we have Canton-bound precedents like Reggie Wayne and Wes Welker getting their first 1k yard season of many more to come at 25.

[clarion contrarion]

cooper kupp on truth serum isn't buying that take ^^^

[Cameron Giles]

You've written them off not because of the age, but because in those cases you've already seen two or three seasons of them at that point and measured the result.

The age itself isn't such a problem for a WR, considering we have Canton-bound precedents like Reggie Wayne and Wes Welker getting their first 1k yard season of many more to come at 25.

Sure, but we've already (in some cases) seen them be productive, though just not live up to the upside we envisioned at a younger age. So, why would I value Kupp similarly to them? Kupp looks like a solid WR and does the fundamental things that usually translate. However, I don't see a high level talent that leads me to believe his upside is big.

[Jason3123]

His upside is a 100+ catches in a season. Depends on Goff making a major leap at some point, of course. Plenty of TDs also isn't out of the question, because he has the necessary red-zone skills (play-strength, contested catch ability, etc).

As for Watkins, D-Jax's vertical role in McVay's offense averaged 6 targets a week. I do expect that to go up a bit with Watkins, say to 7 or 8 targets a week, but the point is it hasn't been a target-hog role. Watkins alone won't keep Kupp from being good in fantasy. In theory, Sammy and Kupp should nicely complement each other, one making big plays vertically while the other moves the chains underneath.

The bigger target-upside threat to Kupp is if Everett/Higbee actually do turn into Jordan Reed 2.0.

He's already 24, which is the same age as a lot of WR's who've played in the NFL that we've written off.

You've written them off not because of the age, but because in those cases you've already seen two or three seasons of them at that point and measured the result.

The age itself isn't such a problem for a WR, considering we have Canton-bound precedents like Reggie Wayne and Wes Welker getting their first 1k yard season of many more to come at 25.

100 catches? Lol. GTFOH.

[ninotoreS]

cooper kupp on truth serum isn't buying that take ^^^

If guys with the workout athleticism and skill-sets of Wes Welker, Jarvis Landry, and Hines Ward can get a 100 catches in a season, it's entirely plausible for a guy with Kupp's prospect profile to be capable of it.

And anyway, you're exactly wrong; Kupp is buying that take and more, actually. He's on record saying he sets outrageous goals for himself. Which, incidentally, he completely achieved in college. Now he says his goal is to be a hybrid of Fitz, Brown, and Green. So, obviously, with that sort of confidence I'm sure 100 catches in a season is only a starting point for his personal goals.

100 catches? Lol. GTFOH.

I'm sure you would have lol'ed back in '14 at the idea of Landry doing it, too.

smh

[ninotoreS]

Sure, but we've already (in some cases) seen them be productive, though just not live up to the upside we envisioned at a younger age. So, why would I value Kupp similarly to them? Kupp looks like a solid WR and does the fundamental things that usually translate.

You're missing my point, maybe. The point is only that the situations and context are not the same. 24-year-olds that have been a bust as a pro for two or three seasons vs an actual 24-year-old rookie. The reasoning behind writing off the former does not apply to the latter.

However, I don't see a high level talent that leads me to believe his upside is big.

Well, I certainly do. Me and Matt Waldman, and Steve Smith Sr, and Al Saunders at the Senior Bowl, and Peyton Manning at his passing camps...

[clarion contrarion]

I wouldn't have for landry as I direct comped him to hines ward the one I missed badly was beckham as I thought mike wallace was his ceiling as his hands looked suspect and he seemed like a whiny-a$$ well I was half right.....as his hands are his calling card . So obviously I make my fair share of mistakes but rarely is it from wild hyperbole .