2022 Rookie Battles: B. Hall vs. K. Walker III

[Bronco Billy]

Hall should have a better statistical career profile vs Walker based on his situation.

Does that include running behind an O-line 2 of those three years that was awful, and that he thrived nonetheless? Or do you only do superficial research and then select only the pieces that reinforce your position? You seem to repeatedly find a need to diminish Hall to justify your relentless pimping of Walker. If his talent is as great as you say it should be able to surpass Hall on its own merits.

[mgscott]

Hall should have a better statistical career profile vs Walker based on his situation.

Does that include running behind an O-line 2 of those three years that was awful, and that he thrived nonetheless? Or do you only do superficial research and then select only the pieces that reinforce your position? You seem to repeatedly find a need to diminish Hall to justify your relentless pimping of Walker. If his talent is as great as you say it should be able to surpass Hall on its own merits.

ISU was a finalist for the Joe Moore Award (top offensive line unit) in 2020 and returned their top 7 from that unit in 2021. How is that awful?

Walker did surpass Hall in 2021, producing better against a much tougher schedule, and by merit, winning the Doak Walker Award.

[Dynasty DeLorean]

I've given my opinion on here plenty but just want to speak up about analytics as many keep mentioning Hall having an elite analytic profile and bringing up analytics as to why Hall is a lock for NFL success and Walker is a question mark. Everyone has their own way that works for them with prospects. Analytics are good to use but can be overused and often the bar for thresholds can be adjusted to fit someones narrative. The good part are that they are objective and not subject to bias or human error. The problem I have with analytics, especially exclusively using analytics is that they are completely objective and don't take any context into account.

Hall should have a better statistical career profile vs Walker based on his situation. He came onto a team with no returning RB and no real competition for carries. ISU is a team that historically features and uses 1 RB and force feeds them throughout the game, even when the game is no longer close. They also benefit from playing in the Big 12 where they routinely face soft defenses. Hall typically struggled with the few good defenses he faced. ISU regularly uses their RBs in the passing game. If Hall is anywhere near a good RB he should be putting up good stats throughout his 3 yr career there. He was set up for success with his situation and put up numbers exhibiting that.

Walker at Wake Forest shared the backfield with another back before getting workhorse treatment at MSU his last year. ACC defenses are cewrtainly better than Big 12 and Big Ten much better. So Walker routinely faced better defenses throughout his career. Neither WF or MSU use their RBs in the passing game historically so Walker shouldn't have high catch numbers or shares. Walker had good results in his split time at WF and great results at MSU. Played against better defenses all 3 years and was elite his last year in a conference known for defense.

Subjectively, Walker looks like a much better back to me on film. More explosive and natural. Home run ability, great in open field and a good between the tackles runner that can slip thorugh small holes when needed. Hall looks clunky to me when having to make lateral moves or stopping and starting and gets tackled too easily against good teams. Both look solid enough catching the ball with limited route running. Hall is mediocre with pass blocking, Walker worse than that (likely the least important part of a RB prospect).

Either RB could flourish on the right team. I feel Walker will at minimum be a highly productive RB in a committee with the potential to be an elite back in the NFL. From what I see from Hall, he is much more dependent on a team that will feature him as the FT back and force him touches and could be forgetable in a commitee as he doesn't to anything elite in my opinion. I could easily be wrong, but his tape against good defenses is not great and shows what could be in the NFL.

Again, all my opinion.

I enjoyed reading that. Only thing I’d say is that analytics isnt guaranteeing hall success. Also, many times, a rb may face better defenses in a more competitive conference, but they also benefit from a better offensive line. I try not to read too much into those things personally.

[Bronco Billy]

Hall should have a better statistical career profile vs Walker based on his situation.

Does that include running behind an O-line 2 of those three years that was awful, and that he thrived nonetheless? Or do you only do superficial research and then select only the pieces that reinforce your position? You seem to repeatedly find a need to diminish Hall to justify your relentless pimping of Walker. If his talent is as great as you say it should be able to surpass Hall on its own merits.

ISU was a finalist for the Joe Moore Award (top offensive line unit) in 2020 and returned their top 7 from that unit in 2021. How is that awful?

Walker did surpass Hall in 2021, producing better against a much tougher schedule, and by merit, winning the Doak Walker Award.

So you don’t do the research. Football Outsiders rush rankings for ISU’s line each of the 3 years Hall was there:

2019 Power rank 93 Stuff rank. 103

2020. Power rank 40 Stuff rank 51

2021 Power rank 119 Stuff rank 106

Wake Forest was better in 2019 and 2020 and MSU was significantly better in 2021. RBs who are that productive given those conditions are more ready for the slimmer seams that are open a shorter time rather than running behind O lines that open wider holes like those that Walker got in his one productive year.

And I still think Walker will be a very good pro - but Hall was productive longer and in more ways behind weaker O lines than Walker was, and is a superior athlete. There’s a place for both to be very successful in the NFL, but IMO Hall has the upper hand in that he has proven that he can do more with less.

[mgscott]

Does that include running behind an O-line 2 of those three years that was awful, and that he thrived nonetheless? Or do you only do superficial research and then select only the pieces that reinforce your position? You seem to repeatedly find a need to diminish Hall to justify your relentless pimping of Walker. If his talent is as great as you say it should be able to surpass Hall on its own merits.

ISU was a finalist for the Joe Moore Award (top offensive line unit) in 2020 and returned their top 7 from that unit in 2021. How is that awful?

Walker did surpass Hall in 2021, producing better against a much tougher schedule, and by merit, winning the Doak Walker Award.

So you don’t do the research. Football Outsiders rush rankings for ISU’s line each of the 3 years Hall was there:

2019 Power rank 93 Stuff rank. 103

2020. Power rank 40 Stuff rank 51

2021 Power rank 119 Stuff rank 106

Wake Forest was better in 2019 and 2020 and MSU was significantly better in 2021. RBs who are that productive given those conditions are more ready for the slimmer seams that are open a shorter time rather than running behind O lines that open wider holes like those that Walker got in his one productive year.

And I still think Walker will be a very good pro - but Hall was productive longer and in more ways behind weaker O lines than Walker was, and is a superior athlete. There’s a place for both to be very successful in the NFL, but IMO Hall has the upper hand in that he has proven that he can do more with less.

I did see this one site's rankings but didn't know it was the only ranking that matters. I did notice you have picked out only 2 stats from football oustiders in their rankings to cherry pick a point you think you are making. The two stats you show ISU being poor at seem to show that Hall was very poor at achieving 1st downs or TDs on 3rd or 4th downs with 2 or less to go and frequently got stuffed at or behind the line. Which may be an OL issue but also speaks well to what I touched on before. Hall has poor lateral agility, can't stop and start and struggles to break tackles. Which leads to getting stuffed at or behind the line. I didn't realize he was such a poor short yardage back, but thanks for making my point on his poor agility and tackle breaking.

If you look at the entire Football Outlook rankings you can see that ISU and MSU rank very similar in Line yards per Carry, which tries to speak to the yards the line creates in the first 0-3 yards and gives them partial credit for yards gained 4-8. They also rank almost identical in Opportunity Rate, the amount of times at least 4 yards are gained when available. So it seems even the one ranking you point out, that I obviously didn't do the research for, shows ISU and MSU lines as being similar. But you didn't speak to ISU lines being highly rated nationally in my award comment.

[Bronco Billy]

I give.

You’ve become so consumed with being right that you’re just making things up now. Either that or I’m watching tape of a completely different player in Hall than you are.

FWIW,

Run Defensive rankings faced last season:

Hall

5
7 (Bowl)
13
17
30
31
40
43
93
114
121
129

Walker

6 (Bowl)
27
28
44
58
60
67
70
77
82
90
119

That’s 4 top 25 run Ds including the bowl game and 4 in the bottom half of college football for Hall, whereas Walker faced his only top 25 run D in his bowl game while catching 6 run Ds in the bottom half of college football.


Good luck with your crusade.

[Jrblaha]

I give.

You’ve become so consumed with being right that you’re just making things up now. Either that or I’m watching tape of a completely different player in Hall than you are.

FWIW,

Run Defensive rankings faced last season:

Hall

5
7 (Bowl)
13
17
30
31
40
43
93
114
121
129

Walker

6 (Bowl)
27
28
44
58
60
67
70
77
82
90
119

That’s 4 top 25 run Ds including the bowl game and 4 in the bottom half of college football for Hall, whereas Walker faced his only top 25 run D in his bowl game while catching 6 run Ds in the bottom half of college football.


Good luck with your crusade.

semi off track, but I’m surprised UofM wasn’t top 25 in run defense last year.

[Bronco Billy]

I give.

You’ve become so consumed with being right that you’re just making things up now. Either that or I’m watching tape of a completely different player in Hall than you are.

FWIW,

Run Defensive rankings faced last season:

Hall

5
7 (Bowl)
13
17
30
31
40
43
93
114
121
129

Walker

6 (Bowl)
27
28
44
58
60
67
70
77
82
90
119

That’s 4 top 25 run Ds including the bowl game and 4 in the bottom half of college football for Hall, whereas Walker faced his only top 25 run D in his bowl game while catching 6 run Ds in the bottom half of college football.


Good luck with your crusade.

semi off track, but I’m surprised UofM wasn’t top 25 in run defense last year.

Probably because of what Walker did to them last year. But Walker got off the hook by missing both WIS and MIN in conference play.

[Jrblaha]

I give.

You’ve become so consumed with being right that you’re just making things up now. Either that or I’m watching tape of a completely different player in Hall than you are.

FWIW,

Run Defensive rankings faced last season:

Hall

5
7 (Bowl)
13
17
30
31
40
43
93
114
121
129

Walker

6 (Bowl)
27
28
44
58
60
67
70
77
82
90
119

That’s 4 top 25 run Ds including the bowl game and 4 in the bottom half of college football for Hall, whereas Walker faced his only top 25 run D in his bowl game while catching 6 run Ds in the bottom half of college football.


Good luck with your crusade.

semi off track, but I’m surprised UofM wasn’t top 25 in run defense last year.

Probably because of what Walker did to them last year. But Walker got off the hook by missing both WIS and MIN in conference play.

That’s true, he really gashed us. Wish we had one more year of film on him bc I like him a lot but can’t put him above Hall (barring crazy bad spot for him).

[Mjvb5]

semi off track, but I’m surprised UofM wasn’t top 25 in run defense last year.

Probably because of what Walker did to them last year. But Walker got off the hook by missing both WIS and MIN in conference play.

That’s true, he really gashed us. Wish we had one more year of film on him bc I like him a lot but can’t put him above Hall (barring crazy bad spot for him).

I'd argue walker on buf could do it. High end rushing ability, especially athleticly gifted backs absolutely thrive in systems with rushing qbs. Whereas pass catching backs and scat back types love pocket passers

[mgscott]

I give.

You’ve become so consumed with being right that you’re just making things up now. Either that or I’m watching tape of a completely different player in Hall than you are.

FWIW,

Run Defensive rankings faced last season:

Hall

5
7 (Bowl)
13
17
30
31
40
43
93
114
121
129

Walker

6 (Bowl)
27
28
44
58
60
67
70
77
82
90
119

That’s 4 top 25 run Ds including the bowl game and 4 in the bottom half of college football for Hall, whereas Walker faced his only top 25 run D in his bowl game while catching 6 run Ds in the bottom half of college football.


Good luck with your crusade.

You make a decent point here and I'll agree the top of the big 12 doesn't look as mediocre as I had thought. I'm not sure if average rushing yards per game is the best barometer of a defense, but it provides something. It does show that Hall got the benefit of 3 of the worst run defenses in all of football vs Walker only getting one. Hall also struggled running against most of the top defenses he faced as well as an FCS team but he did do well against Baylor, WV and KSU who rank high to medium/high on here. I would still say the Big 10 defenses are stronger than Big 12 but this shows it may be closer than I thought, at least at the top.

Also, neither back played in their bowl game so they can be thrown out, but that's basically a wash.

[MEuRaH]

They posted my RB ADP 1-4, which has both these players in it.

https://dynastyleaguefootball.com/2022/ ... p-rbs-1-4/

[Bronco Billy]

I give.

You’ve become so consumed with being right that you’re just making things up now. Either that or I’m watching tape of a completely different player in Hall than you are.

FWIW,

Run Defensive rankings faced last season:

Hall

5
7 (Bowl)
13
17
30
31
40
43
93
114
121
129

Walker

6 (Bowl)
27
28
44
58
60
67
70
77
82
90
119

That’s 4 top 25 run Ds including the bowl game and 4 in the bottom half of college football for Hall, whereas Walker faced his only top 25 run D in his bowl game while catching 6 run Ds in the bottom half of college football.


Good luck with your crusade.

You make a decent point here and I'll agree the top of the big 12 doesn't look as mediocre as I had thought. I'm not sure if average rushing yards per game is the best barometer of a defense, but it provides something.

I’m glad we agree on this, because the rankings are not based on Druypg. They are a combination of ypa allowed and rushing TDs allowed.

In any case, I’m pulling for both RBs to have great careers.

[FantasyFreak]

I just listened to Walker's combine interview. He is adamant, that it is KEN Walker. Seriously, so let's give this man some respect.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7F5bIqjBh8

[Bronco Billy]

I just listened to Walker's combine interview. He is adamant, that it is KEN Walker. Seriously, so let's give this man some respect.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7F5bIqjBh8

So we have to yell his first name?