Julio Jones Thread: Traded to Tennessee

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Vcize
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Re: Julio getting ready to hold out?

Postby Vcize » Sat Jul 28, 2018 11:54 am

Pullo Vision wrote: Sat Jul 28, 2018 11:16 am
skip wrote: Wed Jul 25, 2018 7:01 pm
Pullo Vision wrote: Wed Jul 25, 2018 6:14 pm I'm curious about your view on teams not honoring the contracts they chose to sign, especially given your apparent moral viewpoint about players keeping true to the contracts they sign. Seems to be a disconnect there.

The idea was both parties or neither. Since you see both parties have that power, what about neither? How would league business change if teams weren't allowed to rip up a contract for whatever reason they gave/fabricated, if they had to honor contracts thru signed to the end?

Also curious about your view on a player putting in numerous player options to mimic the outs a team has in a contract. Like adjusting the portion of a contract that's guaranteed, player options are an accepted tool within the current system.
I don't think the issue should be "black and white" as in "both or neither". Are you suggesting that in business that an employee should have the same bargaining power as the employer at the table? I don't. If I'm the owner of the business, I'm paying for performance. If my employee fails to live up to their end, I should be able to terminate. I want my team to have the ability to end contracts rather than be saddled with players undeserving of them.

The player's bargaining chip when negotiating a contact is guaranteed money and player options. If they did an effective job in negotiation, they got as much as they could in those guarantees so there should be no issue if a team terminates before the contract end - the player gets that guaranteed money regardless. Ideally they also negotiated player options, though they don't happen as often. I'd suggest the issue at play is the length of the contracts being accepted. There already is accountability on the part of the team to pay out all of the guaranteed money.
In the real world, people do have the same bargaining as an employer- an employee can choose to leave at any time (though giving notice is preferred by the other party) and an employer can terminate employment at any time, potentially including a severance package.

Why would regular employees have this right but not NFL players? Well, I'd think the fact NFL players sign contracts would be a significant factor. That fact, and there being a labor union, makes the labor different than what the average person experiences.

You'd previously introduced one apparent inconsistency, and now another-
1- How can you take a moral stand against players not honoring their contracts (by holding out) but not having a problem when a team doesn't honor a contract they signed by cutting that player? A contract is a contract, and must be honored to the end.
2- I can see your point about teams wanting to cut underperforming players. What mechanism do you think should be available to players if their performance outstrips their pay?
If a player wanted to operate the same way a typical employee does, they could (essentially) by just signing 1 year deals. But they give that up in exchange for guaranteed payouts that last beyond the time they may be employed.

I can leave my software engineering job at any time. But they also didn't pay me my first 3 years worth of salary the day I agreed to work for them. If I start underperforming or aren't nearly as good a software engineer as they'd hoped when they hired me, they can let me go in 6 weeks and be out only a few bucks. They don't have to keep paying me for the next 3 years even though I am no longer working for them.
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Re: Julio getting ready to hold out?

Postby Vcize » Sat Jul 28, 2018 11:56 am

Pullo Vision wrote: Sat Jul 28, 2018 11:42 am Vcize, one of the interesting trends among players has been for them to sign shorter deals- Cousins showed how it could work, and Julio and Rodgers showed how long term deals could be bad for the player.
Yes, and it's good to see. I've been screaming for years that players would be better off doing this. But people are just so irrational about playing things extra safe when there is a lot of money involved, it's human nature.

And heck, if someone does want to play it over the top safe that's totally their choice to do so. But just don't be Julio and choose to do that and then come back and whine about how your earnings aren't being maximized when you're the one that chose to give that up in exchange for security.
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Re: Julio getting ready to hold out?

Postby Pullo Vision » Sat Jul 28, 2018 12:55 pm

Vcize wrote: Sat Jul 28, 2018 11:54 amI can leave my software engineering job at any time. But they also didn't pay me my first 3 years worth of salary the day I agreed to work for them. If I start underperforming or aren't nearly as good a software engineer as they'd hoped when they hired me, they can let me go in 6 weeks and be out only a few bucks. They don't have to keep paying me for the next 3 years even though I am no longer working for them.
Which is exactly why I didn't like the "real-world comparison- the legal framework is so different. Some industries have unions, but having contracts for individuals is so uncommon.
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Julio Jones production is stupid

Postby Mjvb5 » Wed Oct 17, 2018 10:03 am

Dude has over 700 yards in 6 games. His current season long pace is 117-1,885-0. Yes you read those second two numbers right... Through six games he's pacing the 2nd best season in terms of yardage ever, beating his own 2015 campaign and yet he hasn't scored. Can someone please help explain this to me, I don't watch ATL games, does Ryan not throw it to him? Is he just not good in the red zone? Is Sark just bad? Or does he ball out so much on the way over there he's tired by the time there in the RZ?

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Re: Julio Jones production is stupid

Postby joeya2001 » Wed Oct 17, 2018 10:10 am

Jones said TD's are overrated, Chicks dig the Yardage!
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Re: Julio Jones production is stupid

Postby Mjvb5 » Wed Oct 17, 2018 10:14 am

joeya2001 wrote: Wed Oct 17, 2018 10:10 am Jones said TD's are overrated, Chicks dig the Yardage!
I love it
additional note- Julio has produced 37.5% of the teams receiving yards and 30% of there total yardage for the #8 scoring offense, averaging about 28ppg

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Re: Julio Jones production is stupid

Postby Friction » Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:09 am

To answer your questions in order: yes, no, yes, kind of/maybe.
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Re: Julio Jones production is stupid

Postby WhatWouldDitkaDo » Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:17 am

I wonder if there are any sites / venues offering a prop bet on whether Julio will score a single TD this season. If so, I'd imagine the odds are tremendous, probably -1500 yes he scores.
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Re: Julio Jones production is stupid

Postby rubber_duck » Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:21 pm

Julio has been great at moving down field and poor at scoring for several years. Looking at his TD/Reception rate:

2018 0/44
2017 3/88 or 1 TD per 29 catches
13 - 16 22/364 or 1 TD per 16.5 catches

For comparison, AJ Green scores approximately 1 TD per 9 receptions.

Why? Maybe he goes down too easily and that prevents many YAC type of TDs. Also, it may be that his short field routes just aren't very good. Or, maybe the DC's of the league have decided that the way to beat the Falcons is to completely lock-down Julio in the red zone?

I don't know. But this has been a long term thing, and it got worse in 2017. It is remarkable that his TD rate took another step down this year.

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Re: Julio Jones production is stupid

Postby BigBawseRoss » Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:25 pm

julio is no good in the red zone, thats all
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Re: Julio Jones production is stupid

Postby Phaded » Wed Oct 17, 2018 2:22 pm

He basically always gets doubled in the red zone and is often doubled outside of it.

Targeting anyone in double coverage is risky. Probably even riskier in the red zone.

Many of the players who do a lot of red zone damage have the benefit of one-on-one looks.

Matt Ryan is also not great.

This pace is pretty surprising, though.

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Re: Julio Jones production is stupid

Postby Mefisto » Wed Oct 17, 2018 2:25 pm

Phaded is spot on. It's not that he's bad in the red zone, per se. It's that he's always focused on in the red zone by defenses. I remember that first Thursday night game of this season with the Falcons in the red zone. He was always double covered. Ryan was still trying to force him the ball but his throws were either completely uncatchable or swatted away by the 2+ defenders around him at all times. And there's a lot less room in the red/end zones so it's easier for defenders than in the open field.
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Re: Julio Jones production is stupid

Postby Friction » Wed Oct 17, 2018 3:51 pm

Valid points, but it has to be mostly coaching and Ryan, right? Hopkins scores in the red zone, AJ Green does, OBJ, etc. Could defenses not just do the same to those types of receivers in the RZ? Its definitely an interesting phenomena.
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Re: Julio Jones production is stupid

Postby Pac_Eddy » Wed Oct 17, 2018 4:32 pm

Mjvb5 wrote: Wed Oct 17, 2018 10:03 amDude has over 700 yards in 6 games. His current season long pace is 117-1,885-0. Yes you read those second two numbers right...
He's no Adam Thielen (on pace for 1899 yards).
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Re: Julio Jones production is stupid

Postby Phaded » Wed Oct 17, 2018 5:13 pm

Friction wrote: Wed Oct 17, 2018 3:51 pm Valid points, but it has to be mostly coaching and Ryan, right? Hopkins scores in the red zone, AJ Green does, OBJ, etc. Could defenses not just do the same to those types of receivers in the RZ? Its definitely an interesting phenomena.
Sometimes you need to get creative with schemes and formations to allow your studs to be able to get lined up one & one..

Unfortunately - the Falcons offense is very much lacking any creativity despite being high scoring right now.


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