Stefon Diggs Thread: Traded to Buffalo!

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dm1129
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Re: Diggs value

Postby dm1129 » Wed Sep 13, 2017 6:50 am

Reljac wrote: Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:40 am
Sou1Ca1iber wrote: Tue Sep 12, 2017 8:30 pm The Diggs hate in this thread by a few is almost comical.
I don't hate Diggs, but it is comical to insist that a guy who was only better than a league average guy in 4 games out of a whole season was someone very helpful to a last year team. I like Diggs going forward and he looked the part on Monday, but Adam Theilen also looked the part against the Saints Defense, as did Kyle Rudolph and Dalvin Cook.

In terms of guys that were helpful last year? I picked up Rishad Matthews off waivers.. He scored double digits in 2 more game than Diggs did last year. He also scored at least 8 points in 10 of 16 games. Diggs scored more than 8 points in exactly 6 games last year.

Rishad Matthews off of free agency was WAY more helpful than Diggs to winning in 2016.
This is a dynasty forum. Keep the forum apprised of how Rishad Matthews works for you compared to Diggs going forward. Diggs is just entering his third season and has been in an offense with a decimated o-line. All you have to do is actually watch Diggs play to see the talent. This is ridiculous.

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Re: Diggs value

Postby dynastyninja » Wed Sep 13, 2017 6:55 am

Let's cut through all these small little discussions. What does everyone think he is worth at this point? To me he is between one and two 1sts, so I'll say a 1st and two 2nds.

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Re: Diggs value

Postby Reljac » Wed Sep 13, 2017 7:01 am

dm1129 wrote: Wed Sep 13, 2017 6:50 am This is a dynasty forum. Keep the forum apprised of how Rishad Matthews works for you compared to Diggs going forward. Diggs is just entering his third season and has been in an offense with a decimated o-line. All you have to do is actually watch Diggs play to see the talent. This is ridiculous.
You've clearly missed the point, as it was Cameron Giles trying to argue Diggs last year 'help' to fantasy teams.

If you re-read the post you are arguing against you may find "I like Diggs going forward and he looked the part on Monday"
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QB: Herbert, Tanny
RB: Chubb, Stevenson, AJ Dillion
WR: AJ Brown, M Evans, M Williams, D London, C Olave, Jameson Williams, M Thomas
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Re: Diggs value

Postby Mefisto » Wed Sep 13, 2017 7:09 am

This sounds exactly like the TY Hilton thread of a few years ago. Hilton was labeled streaky in his first couple years. Actually, a lot of these arguments sound the exact same. "He had under X yards in Y games," "not consistent," "only a few good games," etc. As he grew and matured, as young players do, that went away to the tune of 4 straight 1k yard seasons, going 91/1448/6 last year. I see the exact same for Diggs. Like TY, he's becoming the focus of the passing attack as he gets better. As that happens, we'll see more consistent production. To me, Diggs is somewhere between AB and Hilton. I'll gladly take that. Did you guys watch Monday's game? Not only is his route running great, but his ability to keep his feet in bounds when making catches is amazing. The only thing that can stop this kid is his own body.

What's his value? Since we always go back to the basic currency of picks I'd say he's worth at least the 1.01, or 2 mid/high 1sts.
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QB: Brady, Stafford, Mariota, Tannehill
RB: L. Miller, A. Collins, K. Drake, R. Freeman, K. Dixon, D. Foreman, D. Murray, J. Allen, Gore
WR: Hopkins, ARob, S. Diggs, D. Parker, M. Lee, J. Matthews, T. Lockett, D. Pettis, Callaway
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Re: Diggs value

Postby Jfever » Wed Sep 13, 2017 7:36 am

Good morning all.

As I read through this thread it occurs to me that - Its as if some don't "Watch" football games. Rather, it seems to me - they focus on only production and stat lines - while ignoring the cause / effect of said production or lack of it. Diggs possesses the "it" factor and he is simply electric. I'm in 6 dynasty leagues and only own him in one. I wish I had him in all. I love watching him play. He passes the eye test with flying colors. I'll add - Diggs dynasty value is not the same as R.Matthews and it isn't remotely close yet, it was mentioned that Matthews outscored Diggs in a streak of an arbitrary (to NFL football) sample size. If you are playing redraft sure, they are closer in value, but, this is a dynasty discussion. The opinions here by a few seem to be lacking some critical pieces of understanding that are important in dynasty formats.

Lets please keep in mind that we the owners are in charge of our weekly line ups. If you as an owner / manager of your team are starting any player that is dinged up or is slumping for whatever reason, it's on you and how you put together your options withiin your roster. Also, very rarely does a single low performing player cost anyone any single match up. Rather it is typically a combination of multiple lower performing players that cost us owners wins. It basically rarely is as simple as X player had a bad week so I lost. That is an oversimplified take and its a mistake to think of results that way. Bottom line; Diggs is a great talent, is young, has a great catch %, runs great routes, has terrific body control, is aggressive to the ball, high points contested balls, and iis clean off the field, and is clearly trending in the right direction. He has all the tools! AND those tools are translating into increased production and performance over time. As stated above, there are ebbs and flows, ups and downs for all players all the time. He isn't immune to those, just as Julio, AJG, Dez, Evans, Cooper, etc are not.

The time to buy him at a buyer friendly price has passed. He is now a low end wr1, high end wr2 that is trending up. His statistics, targets, and production concretely back that up. Anyone that watches football has seen his growth and improved play over time. Very few informed owners would part with him for a single future 1st. You'll need to now pony up at least a couple mid 1sts, or something to the effect of a decent wr2 along with a 1st, or some combination of startable rb and pick, etc. Continually going on about how "injury prone" he is or how "streaky" he is, in my opinion, shows a general lack of understanding of fantasy football and how things go. But, opinions are opinions and different takes on players is frankly what makes discussions on these forums interesting.
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Re: Diggs value

Postby SkinZ187 » Wed Sep 13, 2017 7:51 am

I side with the diggs truthers.

In fact, I'm trying to acquire right now. Can move Demarco/Henry + Martavis for Diggs + CJA/Charles/Booker. I'm so torn on this.... opinions from the truthers would be appreciated.

Diggs reminds me of Antonio Brown.

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Re: Diggs value

Postby Jfever » Wed Sep 13, 2017 7:57 am

I'd GLADLY trade Demarco & Martavis for Diggs & CJA! SLAM dunk!
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Re: Diggs value

Postby Reljac » Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:00 am

JFever wrote: Wed Sep 13, 2017 7:36 am I'll add - Diggs dynasty value is not the same as R.Matthews and it isn't remotely close yet, it was mentioned that Matthews outscored Diggs in a streak of an arbitrary (to NFL football) sample size. If you are playing redraft sure, they are closer in value, but, this is a dynasty discussion.
You didn't actually read the thread then, if that's what you got out of my argument. I'm the only one who brought up Matthews, and it was solely a counterpoint to the suggestion that he help fantasy teams in 2016. I don't believe it could be much clearer.

The same posts also note that I like him going forward. It's funny that some of you get so hung up once someone names a player. NO ONE IN ANY RESPONSE HAS SAID DIGGS AND RISHAD MATTHEWS HAVE THE SAME VALUE

I sure hope that's now a bit clearer for some of you.
12-team Non-PPR QB, 2-RB, 3-WR, TE, K, DEF
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RB: Chubb, Stevenson, AJ Dillion
WR: AJ Brown, M Evans, M Williams, D London, C Olave, Jameson Williams, M Thomas
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Re: Diggs value

Postby Oddball456 » Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:03 am

Reljac wrote: Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:40 am
Sou1Ca1iber wrote: Tue Sep 12, 2017 8:30 pm The Diggs hate in this thread by a few is almost comical.
I don't hate Diggs, but it is comical to insist that a guy who was only better than a league average guy in 4 games out of a whole season was someone very helpful to a last year team. I like Diggs going forward and he looked the part on Monday, but Adam Theilen also looked the part against the Saints Defense, as did Kyle Rudolph and Dalvin Cook.

In terms of guys that were helpful last year? I picked up Rishad Matthews off waivers.. He scored double digits in 2 more game than Diggs did last year. He also scored at least 8 points in 10 of 16 games. Diggs scored more than 8 points in exactly 6 games last year.

Rishad Matthews off of free agency was WAY more helpful than Diggs to winning in 2016.

Most leagues are PPR so I will use that scoring and I left out week 17 as most leagues do not use week 17. Maybe I missed it somewhere what the "league average guy" score is. Here is Diggs scoring in 2016 per game:

Week Total FPts
1 17.2
2 33.2
3 8
4 9.6
7 3.8
8 21.6
9 22.2
10 29.4
11 9.7
13 13.9
14 8.5
15 3.3
16 12.9

So points per week:
0-10 = 6 games (46%)
10-20 = 3 games (23%)
20+ = 4 games (31%)

So over 50% of the games Diggs played he was over 10 points, and almost a 1/3 were over 20 points.

For the comparison between Diggs and Rishad Matthews, it truly is comical to say Matthews was "WAY more helpful".
Week Diggs Matthews Difference
1 17.2 5.6 11.6
2 33.2 8 25.2
3 8 6.2 1.8
4 9.6 10.2 -0.6
5 DNP 13.2 -13.2
6 Bye 16 -16
7 3.8 7.7 -3.9
8 21.6 13.8 7.8
9 22.2 24.3 -2.1
10 29.4 15.3 14.1
11 9.7 21.2 -11.5
12 DNP 15.4 -15.4
13 13.9 Bye 13.9
14 8.5 3.6 4.9
15 3.3 14.5 -11.2
16 12.9 12.1 0.8
Totals 193.3 187.1 6.2
Formatting is off but here is the breakdown:
Games played: Diggs = 13 Matthews = 15
Total Points Scored: Diggs = 193.3 Matthews = 187.1
PPG: Diggs = 14.9 Matthews = 12.5
Number of weeks Diggs outscored Matthews in weeks they both played: 7 out of 12 (58%)

I am not sure how "Rishad Matthews off of free agency was WAY more helpful than Diggs to winning in 2016." Matthews had a worse PPG, would have given a lower score than Diggs on 58% of the weeks both played, and given less points overall to your team, especially when you consider the 2 weeks he didn't play (not counting the bye) you at least knew he was out and could plug someone else in.

Just to be clear: Even if you left Diggs in your line up the 2 weeks he DNP, he STILL would have given your team more points than all 15 games of Matthews in your line-up.

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Re: Diggs value

Postby Jfever » Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:12 am

The logic and rationale of even bringing up Matthews in the first place was your mistake. It isn't relevant in terms of Diggs value, and it is rather silly to compare the two players in a dynasty context. Your reasoning for disliking Diggs - based off of his cool stretch that you say hurt your team - is the problem I believe. To each their own though. I'm not offended, and I hope I didn't offend you.
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Re: Diggs value

Postby Phaded » Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:46 am

10 points in PPR is a very low floor and somewhat of an arbitrary number to use to prove consistency or value.

I mean, it is only 5 receptions for 50 yards at the end of the day.

In week 1 of this year - 40 WRs put up 10 or more points, just to put it in perspective. That literally brings you into WR4 territory (assuming 12 team league).

At quick glance - 48 WRs averaged at least 10 PPG last year and that is not including averaging PPG of injured players.

If a player has a good chunk of games below 10 points in PPR; that to me is something I personally do not want.

10 points is a bad benchmark, basically.

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Re: Diggs value

Postby rubber_duck » Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:55 am

JFever wrote: Wed Sep 13, 2017 7:36 am Good morning all.

As I read through this thread it occurs to me that - Its as if some don't "Watch" football games. Rather, it seems to me - they focus on only production and stat lines - while ignoring the cause / effect of said production or lack of it. Diggs possesses the "it" factor and he is simply electric. I'm in 6 dynasty leagues and only own him in one. I wish I had him in all. I love watching him play. He passes the eye test with flying colors. I'll add - Diggs dynasty value is not the same as R.Matthews and it isn't remotely close yet, it was mentioned that Matthews outscored Diggs in a streak of an arbitrary (to NFL football) sample size. If you are playing redraft sure, they are closer in value, but, this is a dynasty discussion. The opinions here by a few seem to be lacking some critical pieces of understanding that are important in dynasty formats.

Lets please keep in mind that we the owners are in charge of our weekly line ups. If you as an owner / manager of your team are starting any player that is dinged up or is slumping for whatever reason, it's on you and how you put together your options withiin your roster. Also, very rarely does a single low performing player cost anyone any single match up. Rather it is typically a combination of multiple lower performing players that cost us owners wins. It basically rarely is as simple as X player had a bad week so I lost. That is an oversimplified take and its a mistake to think of results that way. Bottom line; Diggs is a great talent, is young, has a great catch %, runs great routes, has terrific body control, is aggressive to the ball, high points contested balls, and iis clean off the field, and is clearly trending in the right direction. He has all the tools! AND those tools are translating into increased production and performance over time. As stated above, there are ebbs and flows, ups and downs for all players all the time. He isn't immune to those, just as Julio, AJG, Dez, Evans, Cooper, etc are not.

The time to buy him at a buyer friendly price has passed. He is now a low end wr1, high end wr2 that is trending up. His statistics, targets, and production concretely back that up. Anyone that watches football has seen his growth and improved play over time. Very few informed owners would part with him for a single future 1st. You'll need to now pony up at least a couple mid 1sts, or something to the effect of a decent wr2 along with a 1st, or some combination of startable rb and pick, etc. Continually going on about how "injury prone" he is or how "streaky" he is, in my opinion, shows a general lack of understanding of fantasy football and how things go. But, opinions are opinions and different takes on players is frankly what makes discussions on these forums interesting.
Quoting entire long messages isn't my usual thing, but I like this one. This post brought some calm, rational discussion back to this thread. :clap:

The topic was Diggs' Value, I fully agree that 2 1st round rookie picks would be fair. Although, I would be excited to get him at that price. The only concern I see with Diggs is the potential for injury, and his past injuries are not ones that I am overly concerned about going forward. Concerned? Yes, but not losing sleep at night.

Sammy Watkins is in the same conversation, where my only concern about him is injuries. However, his past injuries DO give me pause.

At this point in time, I would not have much separation between the value of Watkins and that of Diggs. Watkins still ahead, but not by much.

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Re: Diggs value

Postby rubber_duck » Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:59 am

Phaded wrote: Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:46 am 10 points in PPR is a very low floor and somewhat of an arbitrary number to use to prove consistency or value.

I mean, it is only 5 receptions for 50 yards at the end of the day.

In week 1 of this year - 40 WRs put up 10 or more points, just to put it in perspective. That literally brings you into WR4 territory (assuming 12 team league).

At quick glance - 48 WRs averaged at least 10 PPG last year and that is not including averaging PPG of injured players.

If a player has a good chunk of games below 10 points in PPR; that to me is something I personally do not want.

10 points is a bad benchmark, basically.
This sounds like someone is asking for a standard benchmark to use to rank wide receiver performance. What should be used as a PPG target to measure WRs in a PPR league?

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Re: Diggs value

Postby onetwothree » Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:01 am

If you drafted Diggs as your WR1 last year then yeah, he probably hurt you down the stretch. So did a ton of players if you only value what they do during the "fantasy playoff" weeks. Happens every year. Some random WW pickup ends up closing the season hot and wins someone the championship.

Your team probably doesn't make the playoffs without what Diggs did while healthy. But for a WR3/flex guy (as he was likely drafted to be), he provided excess value until he was clearly limited by injuries. At that point, it's YOUR fault for not adjusting your lineup accordingly. Again, it's not like you spent a pick in the first few rounds on him so if you feel he's the reason you lost, it's the rest of your lineup that's the issue.

As others have mentioned, it's probably too late to buy without an overpay. I wouldn't want to pay 2 1sts for him but that's probably what it'll cost.

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Re: Diggs value

Postby Phaded » Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:05 am

rubber_duck wrote: Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:59 amThis sounds like someone is asking for a standard benchmark to use to rank wide receiver performance. What should be used as a PPG target to measure WRs in a PPR league?
Exactly - if 48 WRs on the year hit the "benchmark", it is not a great benchmark.
10 has been the benchmark for a while which I never really understood.

In regards to what should be used for a benchmark - I cannot really decide or place that on the community.
But at first glance from last year.

10 - 48 WRs
11 - 41 WRs
12 - 32 WRs
13 - 22 WRs
14 - 16 WRs
15 - 12 WRs

Note that this is only looking at the numbers from last year (and does not factor in injured player PPG) and would likely require a wider review to form a community consensus; but based on the above I think somewhere around 12-13 might be a good benchmark as that seems to be in the WR2-WR3 range.


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