Black Coaching in NFL Discussion from Coaching Changes Topic

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Black Coaching in NFL Discussion from Coaching Changes Topic

Postby tresskid84 » Mon Dec 31, 2018 9:35 am

If anyone would like to discuss this topic, I would love to do so here. I DO NOT want this to be a forum where people are throwing insults/accusations at each other, but rather a place we can have an opportunity to discuss our varying point of views.

As a refresher, I am starting this topic due to a comment I made bringing what I viewed as very poor optics that 5 of the 7 black coaches were fired this year.

I don't disagree with any of their firings and I am not suggesting they should be given charity. I also believe the NFL has made serious progress in giving minority coaches more opportunities, especially for high profile jobs. However, I still believe there is much more progress to made, and with other issues that have arisen in/around the NFL, the optics are bad to me (though I do not believe there are any poor intentions, more so that it is an ill-timed coincidence).

Last statistic I saw was that over 65% of the leagues players are african american (and the majority has been this way for quite some time), yet this percentage is dramatically lower in the coaching ranks. Now, maybe this is because the most qualified people are getting the positions. Maybe it is an issue of black players not pursuing coaching positions. These are things I don't have personal knowledge of, but the disparity still stands out to me. I believe Mike Sando wrote an ESPN piece on this topic a few years ago, and I don't think it is nothing.

I would love to discuss this further, especially if you have more research on the subject. I will not respond to name calling/accusations going either direction.
16tm, 25 man rosters, Superflex, TE premium, 3 taxi for devy (can carry devy on main roster too):
1 QB, 1 RB, 3 WR, 1 TE, 1 Superflex, 3 Flex
Draft is rookie and devy (only NFL draft-eligible players for the following year) combined


QB: M Rudolph, K Sloter
RB: J Adams, T Cannon, B Hill
WR: M Gallup, J Washington, D Hamilton, P Garcon (IR), E St Brown, T Quinn (IR), Treadwell, C Williams, C Coleman, K Kirkwood, M Ateman, J Kumerow, T Patrick, G Allison (IR), I McKenzie
TE: H Henry (IR), G Everett, Uzomah, J Sprinkle
Devy Owned: QB-J Herbert, QB-Will Grier, QB-Ryan Finley, WR-Deebo Samuel, WR-Anthony Johnson, WR-Tyler Vaughns, TE-Caleb Wilson
2019 picks: 1.02, 1.03, 1.04, 1.11, 1.12, 1.13, 1.14, 2.01

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Re: Black Coaching in NFL Discussion from Coaching Changes Topic

Postby azthecrow » Mon Dec 31, 2018 10:39 am

I think your post got turned into a perception vs reality argument in the other thread. Some arguing one or the other and some arguing both at the same time. Regardless, it is obviously a sensitive conversation to have. I think the kaepernick situation is more of an “optics” thing and the coaching changes is a performance-based outcome. The NFL is becoming a microcosm of our country. When individually owned teams feel like they need to follow a “guideline” that is handed down by the league this creates these optic/perception problems. I find it hard to believe that there is even one NFL owner who would not hire a proven winner because of their skin color. They should also be able to fire them if they don’t produce (without optic/perception repercussions). Opportunities in this country abound but you must perform to climb the ladder and succeed. Skin color/ethnicity did not hold back a man from becoming a two-term president of this country.

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Re: Black Coaching in NFL Discussion from Coaching Changes Topic

Postby tresskid84 » Mon Dec 31, 2018 10:57 am

azthecrow wrote:
Mon Dec 31, 2018 10:39 am
I think your post got turned into a perception vs reality argument in the other thread. Some arguing one or the other and some arguing both at the same time. Regardless, it is obviously a sensitive conversation to have. I think the kaepernick situation is more of an “optics” thing and the coaching changes is a performance-based outcome. The NFL is becoming a microcosm of our country. When individually owned teams feel like they need to follow a “guideline” that is handed down by the league this creates these optic/perception problems. I find it hard to believe that there is even one NFL owner who would not hire a proven winner because of their skin color. They should also be able to fire them if they don’t produce (without optic/perception repercussions). Opportunities in this country abound but you must perform to climb the ladder and succeed. Skin color/ethnicity did not hold back a man from becoming a two-term president of this country.
Thanks for the comment! I think both can be true. I agree, the most qualified people should climb the ladder and succeed. I also think there are real systematic issues still in our society that contribute to there being less "qualified" black coaching candidates, despite black athletes being in the majority of the league (and have been for some time). I do understand the backlash to something like the Rooney Rule, but I also have the understanding of why it was deemed necessary and why it exists. Just because there is not/may not be ill-intent (I am not going to speculate on NFL owners and whether they may have discriminatory views) does not mean there are issues lying underneath that are not worth discussing.
16tm, 25 man rosters, Superflex, TE premium, 3 taxi for devy (can carry devy on main roster too):
1 QB, 1 RB, 3 WR, 1 TE, 1 Superflex, 3 Flex
Draft is rookie and devy (only NFL draft-eligible players for the following year) combined


QB: M Rudolph, K Sloter
RB: J Adams, T Cannon, B Hill
WR: M Gallup, J Washington, D Hamilton, P Garcon (IR), E St Brown, T Quinn (IR), Treadwell, C Williams, C Coleman, K Kirkwood, M Ateman, J Kumerow, T Patrick, G Allison (IR), I McKenzie
TE: H Henry (IR), G Everett, Uzomah, J Sprinkle
Devy Owned: QB-J Herbert, QB-Will Grier, QB-Ryan Finley, WR-Deebo Samuel, WR-Anthony Johnson, WR-Tyler Vaughns, TE-Caleb Wilson
2019 picks: 1.02, 1.03, 1.04, 1.11, 1.12, 1.13, 1.14, 2.01

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Re: Black Coaching in NFL Discussion from Coaching Changes Topic

Postby ArrylT » Mon Dec 31, 2018 11:31 am

I think things like the Rooney rule are necessary - just because the NFL still has that aura of an old boys club, amongst of other things.

Think on this for an instant.

https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/bleep ... -comments/

https://www.si.com/nhl/2018/12/30/nhlpa ... n-comments
https://www.thescore.com/nhl/news/1682100

An executive in the NHL publicly called out 2 of his star players in a rant - and the majority view seems to be his comments are unprofessional.

Their contracts

https://www.capfriendly.com/players/jamie-benn

https://www.capfriendly.com/players/tyler-seguin

So you can see they are set to make 70+ million (much of which is guaranteed)

On the other hand

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/2564 ... jaguars-vp

https://www.bigcatcountry.com/2018/12/3 ... ee-jaguars

Fournettes contract

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/jacksonvill ... tte-21745/

Let me know when the media calls Coughlins comments unprofessional.

Not mention comments like this

https://www.thedailybeast.com/houston-t ... the-prison
https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/n ... 806600001/

Now he apologized - but it remains that comments like that are jarring in comparison to how players are mentioned in other sports & the reaction.

The point is that the NFL is a different beast than many of the other sporting leagues, and the culture & many things need to be looked at when considering the landscape. Now Marvin Lewis likely deserved to be fired or left last year - and a lot of this is perception may be worse than reality - ie most of the coaches who got fired will land on their feet - and likely a couple of the new Head Coaches will be of minorities.

But as long as the majority of players are of one persuasion, and the majority of executives, owners & coaches are not & until the NFL stops having issues like the above - there may never be a level playing field on who can be considered a qualified head coach. Because minority players & coaches have to time & time prove themselves more often & more frequently and non-minority coaches & players in the NFL less so.
Please speak to clarion contrarion before considering the use of vetos..

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Re: Black Coaching in NFL Discussion from Coaching Changes Topic

Postby tresskid84 » Mon Dec 31, 2018 12:02 pm

ArrylT wrote:
Mon Dec 31, 2018 11:31 am
I think things like the Rooney rule are necessary - just because the NFL still has that aura of an old boys club, amongst of other things.

Think on this for an instant.

https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/bleep ... -comments/

https://www.si.com/nhl/2018/12/30/nhlpa ... n-comments
https://www.thescore.com/nhl/news/1682100

An executive in the NHL publicly called out 2 of his star players in a rant - and the majority view seems to be his comments are unprofessional.

Their contracts

https://www.capfriendly.com/players/jamie-benn

https://www.capfriendly.com/players/tyler-seguin

So you can see they are set to make 70+ million (much of which is guaranteed)

On the other hand

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/2564 ... jaguars-vp

https://www.bigcatcountry.com/2018/12/3 ... ee-jaguars

Fournettes contract

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/jacksonvill ... tte-21745/

Let me know when the media calls Coughlins comments unprofessional.

Not mention comments like this

https://www.thedailybeast.com/houston-t ... the-prison
https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/n ... 806600001/

Now he apologized - but it remains that comments like that are jarring in comparison to how players are mentioned in other sports & the reaction.

The point is that the NFL is a different beast than many of the other sporting leagues, and the culture & many things need to be looked at when considering the landscape. Now Marvin Lewis likely deserved to be fired or left last year - and a lot of this is perception may be worse than reality - ie most of the coaches who got fired will land on their feet - and likely a couple of the new Head Coaches will be of minorities.

But as long as the majority of players are of one persuasion, and the majority of executives, owners & coaches are not & until the NFL stops having issues like the above - there may never be a level playing field on who can be considered a qualified head coach. Because minority players & coaches have to time & time prove themselves more often & more frequently and non-minority coaches & players in the NFL less so.
And this goes back to my whole original motivation of bringing this up. Based on performance, yes, all these coaches likely earned being fired and I truly believe none of them were fired due to race. But there IS an unfair playing field still in the nfl when it comes to opportunity, and it stems from the top down. Not only are there less Executives and Head Coaches who are minorites, but are less coordinators, and less position coaches, and scouts, and so on. And yet, the majority of players are black, and have been for some time. I'm not making an argument that you have to play in the NFL to be a great coach, that is clearly not true, but playing at the highest level should translate into more of these individuals being the highest qualified people for position coaching positions, which would then translate to getting more opportunities for Coordinating positions, which would then translate to getting more opportunities for head coaching positions.

This is also a dynamic that isnt exclusive to football.
16tm, 25 man rosters, Superflex, TE premium, 3 taxi for devy (can carry devy on main roster too):
1 QB, 1 RB, 3 WR, 1 TE, 1 Superflex, 3 Flex
Draft is rookie and devy (only NFL draft-eligible players for the following year) combined


QB: M Rudolph, K Sloter
RB: J Adams, T Cannon, B Hill
WR: M Gallup, J Washington, D Hamilton, P Garcon (IR), E St Brown, T Quinn (IR), Treadwell, C Williams, C Coleman, K Kirkwood, M Ateman, J Kumerow, T Patrick, G Allison (IR), I McKenzie
TE: H Henry (IR), G Everett, Uzomah, J Sprinkle
Devy Owned: QB-J Herbert, QB-Will Grier, QB-Ryan Finley, WR-Deebo Samuel, WR-Anthony Johnson, WR-Tyler Vaughns, TE-Caleb Wilson
2019 picks: 1.02, 1.03, 1.04, 1.11, 1.12, 1.13, 1.14, 2.01

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Re: Black Coaching in NFL Discussion from Coaching Changes Topic

Postby Servo » Tue Jan 01, 2019 4:55 pm

It would seem that "Black Monday" was far more of a coincidence that now has you wanting to discuss the topic of a bunch of black coaches getting canned.

No idea if there's any correlation but what's the biggest coaching need today? Offense, and it just doesn't seem like there are many black offensive-minded coaches around...is it because there aren't many black QBs? I think Leftwich and Hue Jackson are/were the only black QBs with some type of QB coach/OC/HC role.

Guys like Shanahan and McVay weren't college QBs but somehow they were able to fastrack themselves into a QB coach gig that ultimately led to an OC then to HC and black coaches just aren't finding themselves with those jobs or on that trajectory.
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Re: Black Coaching in NFL Discussion from Coaching Changes Topic

Postby tresskid84 » Thu Jan 03, 2019 11:44 pm

Servo wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 4:55 pm
It would seem that "Black Monday" was far more of a coincidence that now has you wanting to discuss the topic of a bunch of black coaches getting canned.

No idea if there's any correlation but what's the biggest coaching need today? Offense, and it just doesn't seem like there are many black offensive-minded coaches around...is it because there aren't many black QBs? I think Leftwich and Hue Jackson are/were the only black QBs with some type of QB coach/OC/HC role.

Guys like Shanahan and McVay weren't college QBs but somehow they were able to fastrack themselves into a QB coach gig that ultimately led to an OC then to HC and black coaches just aren't finding themselves with those jobs or on that trajectory.
I agree with both of your points. It was absolutely an unfortunate coincidence, but the topic is still worth discussing on a broader scale. And your point about black coaches not becoming OC's is right along with the point I was trying to make.
16tm, 25 man rosters, Superflex, TE premium, 3 taxi for devy (can carry devy on main roster too):
1 QB, 1 RB, 3 WR, 1 TE, 1 Superflex, 3 Flex
Draft is rookie and devy (only NFL draft-eligible players for the following year) combined


QB: M Rudolph, K Sloter
RB: J Adams, T Cannon, B Hill
WR: M Gallup, J Washington, D Hamilton, P Garcon (IR), E St Brown, T Quinn (IR), Treadwell, C Williams, C Coleman, K Kirkwood, M Ateman, J Kumerow, T Patrick, G Allison (IR), I McKenzie
TE: H Henry (IR), G Everett, Uzomah, J Sprinkle
Devy Owned: QB-J Herbert, QB-Will Grier, QB-Ryan Finley, WR-Deebo Samuel, WR-Anthony Johnson, WR-Tyler Vaughns, TE-Caleb Wilson
2019 picks: 1.02, 1.03, 1.04, 1.11, 1.12, 1.13, 1.14, 2.01

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Re: Black Coaching in NFL Discussion from Coaching Changes Topic

Postby ArrylT » Fri Jan 04, 2019 7:13 am

That would be an interesting study - to see how many minority coaches have gone the OC route vs. the DC route, or a third way (ie bypassing the Co-Ordinator position).
Please speak to clarion contrarion before considering the use of vetos..

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Re: Black Coaching in NFL Discussion from Coaching Changes Topic

Postby tresskid84 » Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:20 pm

And now, unless the Dolphins hire eric bieniemy, there will be zero black coaches replacing the 5 that got fired. Again, not saying any of these franchises purposely avoided hiring a black coach due to racism or anything of that nature. For all I know, the best guys got each of these jobs. It just more points to the entire system and how much progress still needs to be made in the league. In a league that has been the majority black for many many years, it is just very unfortunate that the representation at the head coaching, coordinating, and executive positions is so much less represented.
16tm, 25 man rosters, Superflex, TE premium, 3 taxi for devy (can carry devy on main roster too):
1 QB, 1 RB, 3 WR, 1 TE, 1 Superflex, 3 Flex
Draft is rookie and devy (only NFL draft-eligible players for the following year) combined


QB: M Rudolph, K Sloter
RB: J Adams, T Cannon, B Hill
WR: M Gallup, J Washington, D Hamilton, P Garcon (IR), E St Brown, T Quinn (IR), Treadwell, C Williams, C Coleman, K Kirkwood, M Ateman, J Kumerow, T Patrick, G Allison (IR), I McKenzie
TE: H Henry (IR), G Everett, Uzomah, J Sprinkle
Devy Owned: QB-J Herbert, QB-Will Grier, QB-Ryan Finley, WR-Deebo Samuel, WR-Anthony Johnson, WR-Tyler Vaughns, TE-Caleb Wilson
2019 picks: 1.02, 1.03, 1.04, 1.11, 1.12, 1.13, 1.14, 2.01

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Re: Black Coaching in NFL Discussion from Coaching Changes Topic

Postby ArrylT » Sat Jan 12, 2019 4:25 pm

Good news on that front then ... Brian Flores could be a front runner.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/oliverthom ... e046ddbacc
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Re: Black Coaching in NFL Discussion from Coaching Changes Topic

Postby azthecrow » Mon Jan 14, 2019 5:07 pm

tresskid84 wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:20 pm
And now, unless the Dolphins hire eric bieniemy, there will be zero black coaches replacing the 5 that got fired. Again, not saying any of these franchises purposely avoided hiring a black coach due to racism or anything of that nature. For all I know, the best guys got each of these jobs. It just more points to the entire system and how much progress still needs to be made in the league. In a league that has been the majority black for many many years, it is just very unfortunate that the representation at the head coaching, coordinating, and executive positions is so much less represented.
If the best guys got each of these jobs why would more progress need to be made? Would that not swing “the racism or anything of that nature” the opposite way? Though I’m not saying it’s racism or anything like that. Why are the players not more of an even “optic”? Probably because the best players are chosen based on how the team expects them to perform.

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Re: Black Coaching in NFL Discussion from Coaching Changes Topic

Postby tresskid84 » Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:28 pm

azthecrow wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 5:07 pm
tresskid84 wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:20 pm
And now, unless the Dolphins hire eric bieniemy, there will be zero black coaches replacing the 5 that got fired. Again, not saying any of these franchises purposely avoided hiring a black coach due to racism or anything of that nature. For all I know, the best guys got each of these jobs. It just more points to the entire system and how much progress still needs to be made in the league. In a league that has been the majority black for many many years, it is just very unfortunate that the representation at the head coaching, coordinating, and executive positions is so much less represented.
If the best guys got each of these jobs why would more progress need to be made? Would that not swing “the racism or anything of that nature” the opposite way? Though I’m not saying it’s racism or anything like that. Why are the players not more of an even “optic”? Probably because the best players are chosen based on how the team expects them to perform.
Because minority coaches are not getting opportunities that give them the resume and experience to be the most qualified. There are very few minority OC's in the league. There really are not that many minority DC's in the league. Then you go down to the position coaches, there are very few minority QB coaches, and so on. These are the guys that get opportunities the most often for NFL head coaching positions and there just are not enough minority candidates in these pools. As for players, that is a completely different power dynamic. But again, these are the guys playing and getting coached at the highest level, in theory, more black players should be getting opportunities to become position coaches, which would then lead to more coordinating positions.
16tm, 25 man rosters, Superflex, TE premium, 3 taxi for devy (can carry devy on main roster too):
1 QB, 1 RB, 3 WR, 1 TE, 1 Superflex, 3 Flex
Draft is rookie and devy (only NFL draft-eligible players for the following year) combined


QB: M Rudolph, K Sloter
RB: J Adams, T Cannon, B Hill
WR: M Gallup, J Washington, D Hamilton, P Garcon (IR), E St Brown, T Quinn (IR), Treadwell, C Williams, C Coleman, K Kirkwood, M Ateman, J Kumerow, T Patrick, G Allison (IR), I McKenzie
TE: H Henry (IR), G Everett, Uzomah, J Sprinkle
Devy Owned: QB-J Herbert, QB-Will Grier, QB-Ryan Finley, WR-Deebo Samuel, WR-Anthony Johnson, WR-Tyler Vaughns, TE-Caleb Wilson
2019 picks: 1.02, 1.03, 1.04, 1.11, 1.12, 1.13, 1.14, 2.01

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Re: Black Coaching in NFL Discussion from Coaching Changes Topic

Postby azthecrow » Tue Jan 15, 2019 9:46 am

So the majority of coaches should be black because the majority of players are black?
Skin color or ethnicity should not be a factor in considering who’s qualified or not.
As far as opportunity many people (of any color) have to start out at the bottom or by volunteering to prove themselves. Again, if someone can help a team win I think that team will not hesitate to hire them.

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Re: Black Coaching in NFL Discussion from Coaching Changes Topic

Postby tresskid84 » Tue Jan 15, 2019 8:59 pm

azthecrow wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 9:46 am
So the majority of coaches should be black because the majority of players are black?
Skin color or ethnicity should not be a factor in considering who’s qualified or not.
As far as opportunity many people (of any color) have to start out at the bottom or by volunteering to prove themselves. Again, if someone can help a team win I think that team will not hesitate to hire them.
I never said the majority of coaches should be black, I was merely pointing out that the majority of players in the league have been black for some time. Therefor, it would stand to reason they are getting the best coaching, in theory, which would therefor theoretically mean they should be most qualified in many cases for beginning coaching opportunities once their playing careers are over. And the whole start out at the bottom argument isn't changing my point when minority candidates aren't getting the opportunities that start at the bottom. The same goes for upper management, where I believe there is only one black general manager in the league now. There are many factors that have lead to this, almost all (and more likely all) have nothing to do with racism.

I also agree, skin color/ethnicity should not be a factor in considering who's qualified (and I don't believe it is probably pretty close to always in the NFL). But I also think it is naive to think we are living in some post-racial utopia and mission is accomplished on everyone truly being equal (even if you and me individually view everyone as our equals). I think things are getting better every year (even with a some of the other things happening in our culture) but more progress is left to be made (not just in NFL). Progress can only be made when it is acknowledged, discussed, and debated.
16tm, 25 man rosters, Superflex, TE premium, 3 taxi for devy (can carry devy on main roster too):
1 QB, 1 RB, 3 WR, 1 TE, 1 Superflex, 3 Flex
Draft is rookie and devy (only NFL draft-eligible players for the following year) combined


QB: M Rudolph, K Sloter
RB: J Adams, T Cannon, B Hill
WR: M Gallup, J Washington, D Hamilton, P Garcon (IR), E St Brown, T Quinn (IR), Treadwell, C Williams, C Coleman, K Kirkwood, M Ateman, J Kumerow, T Patrick, G Allison (IR), I McKenzie
TE: H Henry (IR), G Everett, Uzomah, J Sprinkle
Devy Owned: QB-J Herbert, QB-Will Grier, QB-Ryan Finley, WR-Deebo Samuel, WR-Anthony Johnson, WR-Tyler Vaughns, TE-Caleb Wilson
2019 picks: 1.02, 1.03, 1.04, 1.11, 1.12, 1.13, 1.14, 2.01

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Re: Black Coaching in NFL Discussion from Coaching Changes Topic

Postby azthecrow » Tue Jan 15, 2019 9:20 pm

tresskid84 wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 8:59 pm
azthecrow wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 9:46 am
So the majority of coaches should be black because the majority of players are black?
Skin color or ethnicity should not be a factor in considering who’s qualified or not.
As far as opportunity many people (of any color) have to start out at the bottom or by volunteering to prove themselves. Again, if someone can help a team win I think that team will not hesitate to hire them.
I never said the majority of coaches should be black, I was merely pointing out that the majority of players in the league have been black for some time. Therefor, it would stand to reason they are getting the best coaching, in theory, which would therefor theoretically mean they should be most qualified in many cases for beginning coaching opportunities once their playing careers are over. And the whole start out at the bottom argument isn't changing my point when minority candidates aren't getting the opportunities that start at the bottom. The same goes for upper management, where I believe there is only one black general manager in the league now. There are many factors that have lead to this, almost all (and more likely all) have nothing to do with racism.

I also agree, skin color/ethnicity should not be a factor in considering who's qualified (and I don't believe it is probably pretty close to always in the NFL). But I also think it is naive to think we are living in some post-racial utopia and mission is accomplished on everyone truly being equal (even if you and me individually view everyone as our equals). I think things are getting better every year (even with a some of the other things happening in our culture) but more progress is left to be made (not just in NFL). Progress can only be made when it is acknowledged, discussed, and debated.
You make some well thought out points. I agree the mission is not accomplished but it is improving. I think it has been helped and also hurt in this massive information age we live in. When people are willing to discuss and try to solve problems instead of digging in their heels is when they can work together for the better of both sides of an issue.


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