So, Stephen Hill.

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Chris_R
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Re: So, Stephen Hill.

Postby Chris_R » Mon Sep 10, 2012 5:28 am

I was able to land Hill in 1 league where I had great WR depth, so it was a perfect situation to stash him away. I took him pretty much expecting his entire rookie year to look like his pre-season, filled with drops and a huge learning curve, so this was certainly a surprise. It was actually a bigger surprise how many people started to jump off board with him after pre-season, considering his track record in college you can't expect a guy like him to come in and tear the NFL up.


What he does have is an elite set of tools, and if he can hone in on developing the little things like route running and catching with his hands he'll do just fine. Thing is, the Jets don't have much at WR, so his production could actually end up being a pleasant surprise this year, Holmes should get all the #1 CB's and whatever double teams they throw at them. That said, I don't expect Hill and to a bigger degree Sanchez, to have these types of games very often. It is exciting though for his prospects, lets me know the potential is here and I expect at least a handful of TD's from him this year.
12 Team ppr Dynasty Originated 2008 4x Champion(2008, 2010, 2013, 2016)
1 QB, 2 RB, 3 WR, 1 TE, RB/WR/TE

QB: Matt Ryan/Dak Prescott
RB: Ezekiel Elliot/LeSean McCoy/D'Onta Foreman/Kenyan Drake/Jonathan Williams/Darren McFadden/Alfred Morris/Elijah McGuire
WR: Dez Bryant/Jarvis Landry/Sammy Watkins/Davante Parker/Taylor Gabriel/Allen Hurns/Brian Quick/Terrance Williams/Justin Hunter/Josh Gordon/Ryan Switzer/Noah Brown/Krishawn Hogan
TE: Jimmy Graham/O.J. Howard/Jonnu Smith/Bucky Hodges/George Kittle/Rico Gathers

TheOracle
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Re: So, Stephen Hill.

Postby TheOracle » Mon Sep 10, 2012 5:45 am

For what it's worth, body catching probably won't catch up to him when he's running fade routes and defenders and four yards in his wake. It WILL lead to more drops though, so it is an issue.
12 team//24 Man Roster//1QB,2RB,4WR,1TE,1RB/WR/TE/1K/1DST//0.5 point PPR//$350 Salary Cap (Salary per year/Years)
QB= Stafford (19/3), Luck (10/1), Locker (1/1),
RB= Forte (39/3), Murray (11/3), Mathews (34/3), Martin (10/1), Tate (11/3), Hunter (6/1), F. Jones (3/1)
WR= Green (21/3), Harvin (27/3), Maclin (33/3), Bowe (23/1) Thomas (11/3), Quick (5/1), Hill (10/1)
TE= Hernandez (19/1), Rudolph (8/1)

12 Team, non-PPR, All TDs 6, QB, 2 RB, 4 WR, TE, RB/WR/TE, DEF, K, 20 man rosters, cut to 14 for Rookie/FA Draft
QB: RG3, Newton, Wilson
RB: Richardson, Martin, Spiller, Charles, L. Miller, L. James,
WR: AJ Green, Julio Jones, Cruz, Marshall, Fitzgerald, Alexander, Hankerson,
TE: Gronk,

Chris_R
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Re: So, Stephen Hill.

Postby Chris_R » Mon Sep 10, 2012 6:44 am

Body catching is overrated for fantasy purposes big time. I lost track of how many balls TO let ram into his chest over his career, Torrey Smith does it consistently, as long as the points are they that's all I care about.
12 Team ppr Dynasty Originated 2008 4x Champion(2008, 2010, 2013, 2016)
1 QB, 2 RB, 3 WR, 1 TE, RB/WR/TE

QB: Matt Ryan/Dak Prescott
RB: Ezekiel Elliot/LeSean McCoy/D'Onta Foreman/Kenyan Drake/Jonathan Williams/Darren McFadden/Alfred Morris/Elijah McGuire
WR: Dez Bryant/Jarvis Landry/Sammy Watkins/Davante Parker/Taylor Gabriel/Allen Hurns/Brian Quick/Terrance Williams/Justin Hunter/Josh Gordon/Ryan Switzer/Noah Brown/Krishawn Hogan
TE: Jimmy Graham/O.J. Howard/Jonnu Smith/Bucky Hodges/George Kittle/Rico Gathers

dresden
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Re: So, Stephen Hill.

Postby dresden » Mon Sep 10, 2012 7:41 am

The main reason to temper Hill expectations a little bit is because the Bills weren't covering any WRs. He made his catches, but there was very little fighting he had to do to get into position. It does give me hope for Hill. Given how poorly the Jets were in preseason, he easily could have dropped several passes or simply been out of position on routes that he's still learning. I have him in my sig league, and I'm quite happy at the moment.
12 team, PPR, 4 pt QB TDs, 25 ret yds/pt.
Start: 1 QB, 1 RB, 1 WR, 1 TE, 4 RB/WR/TE

QB: M Ryan, B Bortles, D Carr;
RB: L McCoy, J Stewart, L Murray, T Riddick, R Turbin, K Robinson, K Carey, J Gray, K Williams;
WR: Julio, S Watkins, J Matthews, K Allen, J Landry, M Crabtree, C Patterson, P Harvin, R Woods, P Garcon, M Wilson, A Holmes, J Janis (TS);
TE: C Clay, D Pitta, J Gresham, R Rodgers, L Wilson

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Re: So, Stephen Hill.

Postby TheOracle » Mon Sep 10, 2012 8:08 am

Chris_R wrote:Body catching is overrated for fantasy purposes big time. I lost track of how many balls TO let ram into his chest over his career, Torrey Smith does it consistently, as long as the points are they that's all I care about.
You don't have to care about the points, but guys who can't consistently catch the ball with their hands tend to have a lot of drops. TO might have been great, but he was also a generational athlete, so he overcame his dropsies. It silly to say that it doesn't matter for fantasy.
12 team//24 Man Roster//1QB,2RB,4WR,1TE,1RB/WR/TE/1K/1DST//0.5 point PPR//$350 Salary Cap (Salary per year/Years)
QB= Stafford (19/3), Luck (10/1), Locker (1/1),
RB= Forte (39/3), Murray (11/3), Mathews (34/3), Martin (10/1), Tate (11/3), Hunter (6/1), F. Jones (3/1)
WR= Green (21/3), Harvin (27/3), Maclin (33/3), Bowe (23/1) Thomas (11/3), Quick (5/1), Hill (10/1)
TE= Hernandez (19/1), Rudolph (8/1)

12 Team, non-PPR, All TDs 6, QB, 2 RB, 4 WR, TE, RB/WR/TE, DEF, K, 20 man rosters, cut to 14 for Rookie/FA Draft
QB: RG3, Newton, Wilson
RB: Richardson, Martin, Spiller, Charles, L. Miller, L. James,
WR: AJ Green, Julio Jones, Cruz, Marshall, Fitzgerald, Alexander, Hankerson,
TE: Gronk,

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Re: So, Stephen Hill.

Postby Chris_R » Tue Sep 11, 2012 5:28 am

TheOracle wrote:
Chris_R wrote:Body catching is overrated for fantasy purposes big time. I lost track of how many balls TO let ram into his chest over his career, Torrey Smith does it consistently, as long as the points are they that's all I care about.
You don't have to care about the points, but guys who can't consistently catch the ball with their hands tend to have a lot of drops. TO might have been great, but he was also a generational athlete, so he overcame his dropsies. It silly to say that it doesn't matter for fantasy.

So how many points did you miss out on with body catches for Hill on Sunday? Please explain to me how catching the ball with your body has something to do with the points Hill scored, or what he could have scored...I'd love to know.
12 Team ppr Dynasty Originated 2008 4x Champion(2008, 2010, 2013, 2016)
1 QB, 2 RB, 3 WR, 1 TE, RB/WR/TE

QB: Matt Ryan/Dak Prescott
RB: Ezekiel Elliot/LeSean McCoy/D'Onta Foreman/Kenyan Drake/Jonathan Williams/Darren McFadden/Alfred Morris/Elijah McGuire
WR: Dez Bryant/Jarvis Landry/Sammy Watkins/Davante Parker/Taylor Gabriel/Allen Hurns/Brian Quick/Terrance Williams/Justin Hunter/Josh Gordon/Ryan Switzer/Noah Brown/Krishawn Hogan
TE: Jimmy Graham/O.J. Howard/Jonnu Smith/Bucky Hodges/George Kittle/Rico Gathers

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Re: So, Stephen Hill.

Postby ccj » Tue Sep 11, 2012 7:08 am

Chris_R wrote: So how many points did you miss out on with body catches for Hill on Sunday? Please explain to me how catching the ball with your body has something to do with the points Hill scored, or what he could have scored...I'd love to know.
I think most people missed out on all his points because of a combination of body catches (drops in the preseason) and the poor Jets offense seeing how he wasn't likely a starter in most fantasy line ups. So, depending on your league format you missed out on about 20 points.

Inaccurate QBs need WRs that have range and catch away from their body (see Eli with Plax and Hakeem). I'm not sure where Sanchez is rated for accuracy (career 55% completion), but I suppose it's ahead of Tebow. Expecting consistent production out of someone who does not have good fundamental skills nor a QB to mask those deficiencies should lower expectations. Fortunately we're talking about a skill which can be learned and improved upon.

Or were we just sticking with hyperbole for argument's sake? In that case, by all means, I'm sure Stephen Hill will have 1400 yards and 32 TDs, you better sell Calvin and get him now! My league scores body catches x2!

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Re: So, Stephen Hill.

Postby Chris_R » Tue Sep 11, 2012 7:14 am

I'm not trying to make the case that WR's who catch with their bodies don't result in more drops, just that a lot more WR's catch passes with their bodies then some would believe. A catch is a catch, wether he snatches it out of the air or it pounds into his shoulder pads, I believe in watching Jermichael Finley he catches just about everything with his hands away from his body but still drops a ton of easy balls. Same with Greg Little, he's actually got very good technique from what I have seen and he catches most balls away from his body then secures it, but his drop rate is alarming. On the flip there are also a bunch of guys who are fantasy producers who let the ball into their chest. I do think it's a trait that can be improved on though, albeit maybe never it comes natural to him but with a JUGS machine you can vastly improve that area in a few years.


I'm just basically saying that fantasy production is all the same regardless, so unless we were arguing real life things such as who is a better WR and why, body catching is literally near the bottom of my list of things to worry about. I don't lose any more points for body catches, or get any extra for catching it with their hands, I'd just rather my guy catch the ball in general, however that happens along the way is fine with me.
12 Team ppr Dynasty Originated 2008 4x Champion(2008, 2010, 2013, 2016)
1 QB, 2 RB, 3 WR, 1 TE, RB/WR/TE

QB: Matt Ryan/Dak Prescott
RB: Ezekiel Elliot/LeSean McCoy/D'Onta Foreman/Kenyan Drake/Jonathan Williams/Darren McFadden/Alfred Morris/Elijah McGuire
WR: Dez Bryant/Jarvis Landry/Sammy Watkins/Davante Parker/Taylor Gabriel/Allen Hurns/Brian Quick/Terrance Williams/Justin Hunter/Josh Gordon/Ryan Switzer/Noah Brown/Krishawn Hogan
TE: Jimmy Graham/O.J. Howard/Jonnu Smith/Bucky Hodges/George Kittle/Rico Gathers

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Re: So, Stephen Hill.

Postby ccj » Tue Sep 11, 2012 7:38 am

Exactly. It's just something to use to project him forward. Right now I wouldn't project him as a starting fantasy WR though that has as much to do with the Jets as anything Hill brings to the table. I'd rather have him let some passes hit him in the chest than have stone hands (which Finley is flirting with). It's the same sort of argument I have with people about Kenny Britt and/or Percy Harvin. I don't think those guys are fully invested in football (in their own ways) and so I lower my opinion of them for dynasty formats. That's what we're on the forums for more than anything else: projecting, learning, and gloating about how right we are.

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Re: So, Stephen Hill.

Postby jlasaf2007 » Wed Sep 12, 2012 5:44 am

I don't really have an opinion one way or the other on Hill's catching ability, if he is or isn't good with his hands, or if it matters...

...but this thread makes me think of Tiki Barber. He had a huge fumbling problem for much of his career. Once he got that resolved, he was given more opportunities, and thus more chances to score fantasy points.

WR's that don't have the greatest hands or route running, but great athletic ability, often get shorter passes in space that allow them to make a catch and then use their physical ability after that. A handful of those plays get run every game, but they aren't typically the bread-and-butter of an offense or something that you call on 3rd and long.
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Re: So, Stephen Hill.

Postby xlote » Wed Sep 12, 2012 1:26 pm

He can work on his catching.

Other WRs can't work on being 6'4" or running a 4.3 40.

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Re: So, Stephen Hill.

Postby TryingToWin » Wed Sep 12, 2012 1:34 pm

xlote wrote:He can work on his catching.

Other WRs can't work on being 6'4" or running a 4.3 40.
hahahahaa. Amen my man, you said it. Ain't that the truth.

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Re: So, Stephen Hill.

Postby TheOracle » Wed Sep 12, 2012 5:25 pm

xlote wrote:He can work on his catching.

Other WRs can't work on being 6'4" or running a 4.3 40.
That's why I took him at 1.9. The point is that it's not realistic to expect somebody who does't catch the ball well to keep giving you awesome stat lines until he improves. Obviously he's still a great prospect.

ChrisR, whatever you were trying to say, what you actually said was:
Chris_R wrote:So how many points did you miss out on with body catches for Hill on Sunday? Please explain to me how catching the ball with your body has something to do with the points Hill scored, or what he could have scored...I'd love to know.
...which is a really dumb thing to say. It's like you hyping up a RB who ran a 5.1 forty at the combine who scored a few TDs in Week 1 by saying "how many points did you miss out on by RB_X's slow forty time?" Obviously nobody misses points for how somebody catches the ball. I'm sure you were trying to be funny or something, and I guess I appreciate the attempt. The point is that catching with your hands is a skill, and WR's who don't have that skill don't usually have games like Hill did on a regular basis. It's not about what he could have scored or what he did score, it's about what he will score. That's an incredibly simple concept and it's a shame that you can't seem to grasp it.
12 team//24 Man Roster//1QB,2RB,4WR,1TE,1RB/WR/TE/1K/1DST//0.5 point PPR//$350 Salary Cap (Salary per year/Years)
QB= Stafford (19/3), Luck (10/1), Locker (1/1),
RB= Forte (39/3), Murray (11/3), Mathews (34/3), Martin (10/1), Tate (11/3), Hunter (6/1), F. Jones (3/1)
WR= Green (21/3), Harvin (27/3), Maclin (33/3), Bowe (23/1) Thomas (11/3), Quick (5/1), Hill (10/1)
TE= Hernandez (19/1), Rudolph (8/1)

12 Team, non-PPR, All TDs 6, QB, 2 RB, 4 WR, TE, RB/WR/TE, DEF, K, 20 man rosters, cut to 14 for Rookie/FA Draft
QB: RG3, Newton, Wilson
RB: Richardson, Martin, Spiller, Charles, L. Miller, L. James,
WR: AJ Green, Julio Jones, Cruz, Marshall, Fitzgerald, Alexander, Hankerson,
TE: Gronk,

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Re: So, Stephen Hill.

Postby Chris_R » Thu Sep 13, 2012 11:13 am

TheOracle wrote: ChrisR, whatever you were trying to say, what you actually said was:
Chris_R wrote:So how many points did you miss out on with body catches for Hill on Sunday? Please explain to me how catching the ball with your body has something to do with the points Hill scored, or what he could have scored...I'd love to know.
...which is a really dumb thing to say. It's like you hyping up a RB who ran a 5.1 forty at the combine who scored a few TDs in Week 1 by saying "how many points did you miss out on by RB_X's slow forty time?" Obviously nobody misses points for how somebody catches the ball. I'm sure you were trying to be funny or something, and I guess I appreciate the attempt. The point is that catching with your hands is a skill, and WR's who don't have that skill don't usually have games like Hill did on a regular basis. It's not about what he could have scored or what he did score, it's about what he will score. That's an incredibly simple concept and it's a shame that you can't seem to grasp it.


I understand that your unable to have discussions without implying that the other poster is lacking some sort of logic, or intelligence, which is fine. Seems like everytime I see you trying to prove a point, you always have a snide way of throwing in how the person your disagreeing with is somehow lacking the tools to grasp easy concepts in whatever way you can slight people.


My point is that Jermichael Finley drops passes too, but I can think of a number of TE's who probably don't drop any passes, that still don't outscore him; weekly or yearly. That's my point. Not every WR in the NFL catches passes with their hands away from their body unfortunately, should they? Yes. Will it probably result in more drops? Sure. But none the less, to me it's never been a huge deal because production is production. There are a number of WR's or TE's who body catch consistently and haven't improved on that but still catch the balls that come their way. If we were arguing real life skill of playing WR it would carry more relevance to me, but personally in fantasy it doesn't. It does to you, which is fine. But I don't have to try and point out how you can't understand simple to hammer home my point.
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1 QB, 2 RB, 3 WR, 1 TE, RB/WR/TE

QB: Matt Ryan/Dak Prescott
RB: Ezekiel Elliot/LeSean McCoy/D'Onta Foreman/Kenyan Drake/Jonathan Williams/Darren McFadden/Alfred Morris/Elijah McGuire
WR: Dez Bryant/Jarvis Landry/Sammy Watkins/Davante Parker/Taylor Gabriel/Allen Hurns/Brian Quick/Terrance Williams/Justin Hunter/Josh Gordon/Ryan Switzer/Noah Brown/Krishawn Hogan
TE: Jimmy Graham/O.J. Howard/Jonnu Smith/Bucky Hodges/George Kittle/Rico Gathers

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Re: So, Stephen Hill.

Postby xlote » Thu Sep 13, 2012 1:35 pm

"I understand that your unable to have discussions without implying that the other poster is lacking some sort of logic, or intelligence, which is fine. Seems like everytime I see you trying to prove a point, you always have a snide way of throwing in how the person your disagreeing with is somehow lacking the tools to grasp easy concepts in whatever way you can slight people."

I've noticed this too. I say we do a "Mike & Mike" special and ban Oracle for the rest of the day!


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