Keke value (poll)

[ninotoreS]

I put him at a late 1st. Most of it's down to opportunity -- O'Brien wants to emulate elements of the Pats offense, and that calls for a high volume slot guy.

Coutee I think is a guy in a budding situation similar to those that have defined the careers of Randall Cobb and Wes Welker. Like those guys, I'm not confident Coutee has the talent profile to be valuable in fantasy unless he's in the right system. He appears to be in the right system.

Very good chance [Fuller] plays the slot when back from injury

There's very little chance of this.

Houston has drafted two other players specifically to be their slot guy since selecting Fuller in 2016 -- first Braxton Miller, who wasn't panning out by 2018, so then they promptly selected Coutee.

They also gave Bruce Ellington a lot of run in the slot as a stop-gap solution during this interval.

So, clearly, Houston doesn't want Fuller in the slot; they want him outside and have always wanted him outside. I'm guessing they think he's too fragile to risk him to hits going across the middle in the NFL (with good reason, ofc).

[Jfever]

Hasn’t Fuller been a scoring machine while healthy and on the field with Jackson? Something like 11 td in 11 games? Still, I get it with the health worry. He is still just 24 and was the 21st pick in the first round of his draft class. So there is that to consider. I’m not huge on him (Fuller) by any means but I wouldn’t trade Ebron and a 2.12 for Keke C, that’s for sure. It was a snap accept when a counter of Fuller showed up though.

[ninotoreS]

Watson loves throwing deep to Fuller. Just a very different role from what Houston seems to be envisioning for Coutee, though.

[FantasyFreak]

I put him at a late 1st. Most of it's down to opportunity -- O'Brien wants to emulate elements of the Pats offense, and that calls for a high volume slot guy.

Coutee I think is a guy in a budding situation similar to those that have defined the careers of Randall Cobb and Wes Welker. Like those guys, I'm not confident Coutee has the talent profile to be valuable in fantasy unless he's in the right system. He appears to be in the right system.

Very good chance [Fuller] plays the slot when back from injury

There's very little chance of this.

Houston has drafted two other players specifically to be their slot guy since selecting Fuller in 2016 -- first Braxton Miller, who wasn't panning out by 2018, so then they promptly selected Coutee.

They also gave Bruce Ellington a lot of run in the slot as a stop-gap solution during this interval.

So, clearly, Houston doesn't want Fuller in the slot; they want him outside and have always wanted him outside. I'm guessing they think he's too fragile to risk him to hits going across the middle in the NFL (with good reason, ofc).

Yep. Fuller is not a slot guy at all. His skill set is really nowhere near an NFL slot players. Fuller doesn't have the hands for the throws that eat you up quickly. Drops were a problem for him in college, but he's a great deep threat. Slot is not in the cards for him. With Fuller taking the top off, and the threat of Hopkins, Coutee will get enough in the short areas of the field.

Lev'eon Bell could seriously hurt his outlook, though.

P.S. You took my rant seriously the other night about DK. I did say I was "taking the piss", a British expression for having fun at someone else's expense. I was not mad. It was all a joke post, with my counter opinion thrown in.

[Ice]

A couple of points on the Texans.
The Texans May want to emulate the Pat's but without drastic personnel moves that isn't happening and hasn't for years.

(Pulled stats from football guys)
Last year of 327 WR targets Hopkins had 163, Fuller had 45, Keke 41. (Obviously both were hurt)
TE position added 95 targets and they need one really bead which should push targets up.
RB targets 68, this is really low and will be addressed.

Earlier I should have said Fuller may play some slot didn't mean to imply he would be their primary slot WR. I think long term he is suited for the slot position. Why: He has very short quick strides and smallish hands. He actually catches the ball very well. In college he was pretty much just a deep threat due to T. Hill type speed. (4.32 40). Speed kills and his quickness could be utilized in different ways. Slot play with movement forces mismatches.

As he develops his game his speed and quickness should be used as more of a weapon. I wouldn't pigeon this talent in the mind as just a deep threat.

Problem with both Keke and Fuller is the ability to stay on the field. BTW, Keke wasn't drafted just as a slot guy. That said, as he improves his routes and hopefully stays healthy he could be. He is about the same size as Fuller minus a couple of inches. Going over the middle is a risk for him or any WR but they all do these day.

[Jfever]

Wasn't Fuller's injury an ACL?

[Ice]

Wasn't Fuller's injury an ACL?

Yes, Keke was a Hammy.

ACL these day is 6-9 months so Fuller should be good to go by July at the latest. Full strength by September most likely.

[Mjvb5]

Pretty sure I'm in the minority taking Keke over Fuller. Betting by year's end it's a majority view though. Recency bias? Maybe. Keke only played like 6 games last year, 1 less than Fuller BTW. Honestly, it's a subjective / qualitative view and could easily be wrong. His quickness, toughness/willingness to go over the middle and catch balls in traffic really impressed me. He seems to fit Watson's quick / intermediate game better than Fuller. Fuller's no scrub, runs a pretty go route, but in 3 years in the league, Fuller's not done much. Yeah, he's been injured a lot (I'll have the same disappointment in Keke if he doesn't play more than Fuller has too), but he's never produced more than 600'ish yards or more than 47 catches in 3 seasons. Not terrible, but I'm pretty sure Keke can and will do better, starting this year. Again, I could be all wrong, but isn't that what makes dynasty fun.

Keke has had 2 regular season starts...... Be careful.

Fuller was a 1st round draft pick.....He has a ton of skill to go with that 4.32 speed. Very good chance he plays the slot when back from injury

Do you have a reference on him playing from the slot? Not trying to call you out just honestly curious as Keke seems much better suited to the slot than Fuller to me. Fuller has very good straight line play speed and is a good contested catch deep ball guy whereas I feel like Keke has better quickenss and catch in traffic. There very different styles of receiver to me, not a knock on either just feel like Fuller is better as the #2 outside guy and Keke to the slot.
Saying all this I do think both can be productive WRs as HOU does not rely on the TE and doesn't really throw to the RB all that much until they have to from everyone else getting hurt.

[Ice]

Pretty sure I'm in the minority taking Keke over Fuller. Betting by year's end it's a majority view though. Recency bias? Maybe. Keke only played like 6 games last year, 1 less than Fuller BTW. Honestly, it's a subjective / qualitative view and could easily be wrong. His quickness, toughness/willingness to go over the middle and catch balls in traffic really impressed me. He seems to fit Watson's quick / intermediate game better than Fuller. Fuller's no scrub, runs a pretty go route, but in 3 years in the league, Fuller's not done much. Yeah, he's been injured a lot (I'll have the same disappointment in Keke if he doesn't play more than Fuller has too), but he's never produced more than 600'ish yards or more than 47 catches in 3 seasons. Not terrible, but I'm pretty sure Keke can and will do better, starting this year. Again, I could be all wrong, but isn't that what makes dynasty fun.

Keke has had 2 regular season starts...... Be careful.

Fuller was a 1st round draft pick.....He has a ton of skill to go with that 4.32 speed. Very good chance he plays the slot some when back from injury

Do you have a reference on him playing from the slot? Not trying to call you out just honestly curious as Keke seems much better suited to the slot than Fuller to me. Fuller has very good straight line play speed and is a good contested catch deep ball guy whereas I feel like Keke has better quickenss and catch in traffic. There very different styles of receiver to me, not a knock on either just feel like Fuller is better as the #2 outside guy and Keke to the slot.
Saying all this I do think both can be productive WRs as HOU does not rely on the TE and doesn't really throw to the RB all that much until they have to from everyone else getting hurt.

I left out the word some in that post. His talent set IMO is actually well suited to play in the slot quite a bit given the actual way he runs. The game is evolving quite a bit and the Texans are no different, He is a solid #2 but believe he has the talent set to do far more than just run deep. BTW, Keke is also a solid #2. He can also take the lid off a defense.

The only reason the Texans do not use TE's and RB's more in the passing game is personnel. They have been looking for a TE for several years now and have tried to find one on the cheap. Would not surprise me a bit if the take one in the first round. a Player like Hockenson would require a move up because he is a legit 3 down TE that would help the running game and passing game for both RB's and TE's.

This has been the biggest weakness on this team. Hockenson can develop into a Gronk type and with the NE roots I have to think they see that. Problem is I am sure many teams see that talent as well.

[Jfever]

I still haven't quite come to terms with this and it seemed to get skimmed over above. Who of you fellow forum posters / contributors values Keke C straight up to W.Fuller? How is keke valued as a late 1st round value and if he is that, where does that put Fuller? Are we saying but not saying that the 3 starting wr in Houston's offense are each at minimum worth a 1st plus (Hopkins obviously much more). I guess I didn't realize that some valued Keke that highly. I surely did not and still do not. I'm surprised by this to be honest. Perhaps I'm late to this party.

[saw061600]

For further reference, Keke's current ADP is 98th. Between rookies Henderson 87th and Anderson 101. So between 1.08 and 2.01 on March DLF Rookie ADP.

[Ice]

I still haven't quite come to terms with this and it seemed to get skimmed over above. Who of you fellow forum posters / contributors values Keke C straight up to W.Fuller? How is keke valued as a late 1st round value and if he is that, where does that put Fuller? Are we saying but not saying that the 3 starting wr in Houston's offense are each at minimum worth a 1st plus (Hopkins obviously much more). I guess I didn't realize that some valued Keke that highly. I surely did not and still do not. I'm surprised by this to be honest. Perhaps I'm late to this party.

Based on the posts, you and I may be in the minority which is quite surprising.

Fuller is a superior talent. Not knocking Keke as he does hold value but he was largely a product of injuries to others and he himself was hurt a lot. Houston fought a ton of injuries, which is one reason Keke was drafted then more injuries and brought in DT only to see him go down. Might as well throw in Vyncint Smith in the mix too. He actually only had one less start than Keke and may have made the best catch on the team last year.

The real fantasy stars on this team are obvious. 1 WR and 1 QB.

[Jfever]

Yep. Count me in as surprised Ice. I value W.Fuller much higher than Keke and that wont change because of a few posts. Like I said earlier, the production from Fuller when healthy with 1st string offense, is elite. When Fuller's ACL is healed up and he is back in the fold, I fully expect the buzz to cool dramatically with you Keke folks. You will come around, just a matter of time. I'm making that call here. A mid first seem quite wishful thinking to me but, to each their own. Fuller had 11 TDs in 11 games played with Watson while Keke has had 2 career starts. I get the ppr production but... who else was there to throw to besides Nuk being double and triple covered...? What am I missing here? I'm genuinely curious. All so often people talk about talent vs situation and so many say they take talent but, in this case, Keke's production is SCREAMING that it is situation based is it not?

[kadun2]

^ I think in my case I am comparing Keke to the potentially available late first rookie WRs this year, not Fuller and Nuk. I also like his potential based on what I have seen. It’s not about comparing him to fuller. I also think that this offense is heading in the right direction and will support many productive fantasy options going forward. on any given Sunday Nuk is willing to take double teams, block, or whatever necessary to make the offense work. Most of the time fuller will be a “lid lifter” in my opinion, and will have some big days. Keke will also have some big days as he has shown, when other options are taken away. Keke has shown good sync with Watson and they have also used Keke around the goal line which is sign that they have trust in him as another option there, if necessary.

[ninotoreS]

Lev'eon Bell could seriously hurt his outlook, though.

True. Very true. Man, Bell to Houston would be great for my Watson shares, though. I think.

P.S. You took my rant seriously the other night about DK. I did say I was "taking the piss", a British expression for having fun at someone else's expense. I was not mad. It was all a joke post, with my counter opinion thrown in.

Yeah, uh, I may have committed the cardinal forum sin of not completely reading your post before responding, after I got to the 'you're ridiculous and pretentious' part. I really hate it when other people do that.

Yep. Count me in as surprised Ice. I value W.Fuller much higher than Keke and that wont change because of a few posts. Like I said earlier, the production from Fuller when healthy with 1st string offense, is elite. When Fuller's ACL is healed up and he is back in the fold, I fully expect the buzz to cool dramatically with you Keke folks. You will come around, just a matter of time. I'm making that call here.

Small sample, but Coutee out-targeted Fuller in every game they both played together at supposedly full health.

Regardless, the biggest risk with Fuller vs Coutee is the possibility Houston won't pick up his option if he once again misses several games to injury in '19. The threat is real. Employees that are always missing work don't stay employed. Fuller struggles to keep weight on his frame (reportedly he played his rookie year at an NFL-absurd 170lbs at 6'0") and so it's plausible he will always be a seasonal glass-canon and time-bomb. Many NFL teams won't invest much money in that, and fantasy rosters should be leery, too.

I get the ppr production but... who else was there to throw to besides Nuk being double and triple covered...? What am I missing here? I'm genuinely curious.

What you're missing:

Watson wasn't constantly checking down to Coutee when Nuk was covered -- the offense was deliberately manufacturing touches for Coutee. And I think it's significant that O'Brien helped create Welker in New England, and then hired him as an assistant in Houston, then drafted a prolific slot-WR from the same school as Welker, and then immediately game-planned heavy targets for him in his pro debut the instant he was available to play.

It resulted in the most productive pro debut (preseason or regular season) by a rookie in modern NFL history, and then in the post-season another record for production by the youngest QB-WR tandem in modern NFL history.

Again, small sample. But we look for early indicators in this game to get the scoop on other owners, and these are meaty indicators.

All so often people talk about talent vs situation and so many say they take talent but, in this case, Keke's production is SCREAMING that it is situation based is it not?

I think this is largely true. So, that is an issue. I know I'd instantly devalue Coutee if O'Brien were to be fired before Coutee is established.

In a vacuum, there are a few things that bother me about Coutee's profile. His T-Rex arms, for one.

edit: i sure am bleep about spelling and grammar errors