Tie break dilemma
Tie break dilemma
Who wins the play-off seeding tiebreak in this situation and why? all advice appreciated
info:
* Wild card seedings, seeds 5&6 up for grabs. THREE teams finish the season 8&5
* Using ESPN
* Head to Head is our tiebreak with points scored de facto 2nd tiebreak
*16 team 4 division league so not all teams play each other every year
Team A has scored the most points of the three, hasn't played either of the other two
Team B has scored the least of the three but has beaten team C, didnt play team A
Team C has scored more than B but lost to them in the regular season
Now I am pretty clear A should be the 5 seed right but who gets the 6?
My original take was that as not all three teams have played each other then head to head cant be used so we straight away go to points scored (C is in) as a viable tiebreak (if there has been only two teams and they had played then h2h would be used)
but ESPN put Team B in (as the 6) over Team C as they have the head to head between the two
so what is everyone's take? confusing right?
who should be the 6?
info:
* Wild card seedings, seeds 5&6 up for grabs. THREE teams finish the season 8&5
* Using ESPN
* Head to Head is our tiebreak with points scored de facto 2nd tiebreak
*16 team 4 division league so not all teams play each other every year
Team A has scored the most points of the three, hasn't played either of the other two
Team B has scored the least of the three but has beaten team C, didnt play team A
Team C has scored more than B but lost to them in the regular season
Now I am pretty clear A should be the 5 seed right but who gets the 6?
My original take was that as not all three teams have played each other then head to head cant be used so we straight away go to points scored (C is in) as a viable tiebreak (if there has been only two teams and they had played then h2h would be used)
but ESPN put Team B in (as the 6) over Team C as they have the head to head between the two
so what is everyone's take? confusing right?
who should be the 6?
16 Team, 21 player roster+IR, QB, RB, RB, WR, WR, WR, TE, Flex, DST, K
QB: Murray, Trubisky, Mariota
RB: Fournette, D.Montgomery, A.Jones, Cohen, Kerryon Johnson
WR: R.Woods, AJ Green, Boyd, A.Miller, J. Gordon, Marquise Brown, Boykin, Callaway, MVS, Slayton
TE: Ertz
DST: Vikings, Browns
2020 Picks 1.03, 1.06, 2.03 (19 overall)
QB: Murray, Trubisky, Mariota
RB: Fournette, D.Montgomery, A.Jones, Cohen, Kerryon Johnson
WR: R.Woods, AJ Green, Boyd, A.Miller, J. Gordon, Marquise Brown, Boykin, Callaway, MVS, Slayton
TE: Ertz
DST: Vikings, Browns
2020 Picks 1.03, 1.06, 2.03 (19 overall)
Re: Tie break dilemma
I’d have C out. Can’t remove A due to not having played anyone (and winning the third tie breaker of points). Can’t remove B since he has tie breaker over C, which is the tie breaker.
Update tie breaker in offseason.
Update tie breaker in offseason.
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Re: Tie break dilemma
ESPN sucks, but now to your issue:
B has to be in. He won the H2H matchup. He can't control the schedule. H2H is the listed tie-breaker.
B has to be in. He won the H2H matchup. He can't control the schedule. H2H is the listed tie-breaker.
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A bunch of league settings you won't read anyways....numbers and such
QB - A guy with only one or two good years left in the tank
RB1 - A guy who stands charged with several minor crimes (Guilty until proven, right?)
RB2 - Young guy that is only good because of his offensive line and workload
WR1 - A guy whose metrics make up for his stone hands
WR2 - A dude who is probably too short to catch the ball
TE - This guy played basketball, right?
DEF & K - I guess we are still doing this .. ...
Jealous much? Of course you are.
(Insert Clever Team Name That May Contain Sexual Innuendo)
A bunch of league settings you won't read anyways....numbers and such
QB - A guy with only one or two good years left in the tank
RB1 - A guy who stands charged with several minor crimes (Guilty until proven, right?)
RB2 - Young guy that is only good because of his offensive line and workload
WR1 - A guy whose metrics make up for his stone hands
WR2 - A dude who is probably too short to catch the ball
TE - This guy played basketball, right?
DEF & K - I guess we are still doing this .. ...
Re: Tie break dilemma
You said 1st tie breaker is H2H, B beat C H2H, so B is clearly the answer.
Re: Tie break dilemma
I believe the way you are looking at it is correct.
3 way tie between teams for 2 spots.
- Goes to 1st tiebreaker which is null because they didn't play each other or equal games (in a 16 team league this needs to be reconsidered because it will always happen).
- Go to 2nd tiebreaker which is points so Team A is 5 seed.
Now there are 2 teams left
- Tiebreaker 1 is H2H and the 2 teams HAVE played each other so Team B gets 6th seed
You need to square this away for next season though in my opinion. Shouldn't need this much wording in the league rules
3 way tie between teams for 2 spots.
- Goes to 1st tiebreaker which is null because they didn't play each other or equal games (in a 16 team league this needs to be reconsidered because it will always happen).
- Go to 2nd tiebreaker which is points so Team A is 5 seed.
Now there are 2 teams left
- Tiebreaker 1 is H2H and the 2 teams HAVE played each other so Team B gets 6th seed
You need to square this away for next season though in my opinion. Shouldn't need this much wording in the league rules
Re: Tie break dilemma
Thanks for answering.
That's how ESPN has it too. so basically we are saying that h2h (being the first tiebreak) has precedence over all and points scored only matters after that to break subsequent ties and because B has beaten C but not played A that tiebreak (between 5th and 6th seed) goes down to points so A is 5 and B is 6.
Cheers, I think that is correct too.
any other input guys?
16 Team, 21 player roster+IR, QB, RB, RB, WR, WR, WR, TE, Flex, DST, K
QB: Murray, Trubisky, Mariota
RB: Fournette, D.Montgomery, A.Jones, Cohen, Kerryon Johnson
WR: R.Woods, AJ Green, Boyd, A.Miller, J. Gordon, Marquise Brown, Boykin, Callaway, MVS, Slayton
TE: Ertz
DST: Vikings, Browns
2020 Picks 1.03, 1.06, 2.03 (19 overall)
QB: Murray, Trubisky, Mariota
RB: Fournette, D.Montgomery, A.Jones, Cohen, Kerryon Johnson
WR: R.Woods, AJ Green, Boyd, A.Miller, J. Gordon, Marquise Brown, Boykin, Callaway, MVS, Slayton
TE: Ertz
DST: Vikings, Browns
2020 Picks 1.03, 1.06, 2.03 (19 overall)
Re: Tie break dilemma
Any suggestion for the bold bit? it gets complicated with a three team tie and not all teams having played each other. hard to make it clearer.Jigga94 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 04, 2018 4:44 pm I believe the way you are looking at it is correct.
3 way tie between teams for 2 spots.
- Goes to 1st tiebreaker which is null because they didn't play each other or equal games (in a 16 team league this needs to be reconsidered because it will always happen).
- Go to 2nd tiebreaker which is points so Team A is 5 seed.
Now there are 2 teams left
- Tiebreaker 1 is H2H and the 2 teams HAVE played each other so Team B gets 6th seed
You need to square this away for next season though in my opinion. Shouldn't need this much wording in the league rules
I like the way you explain it above though. makes sense.
seems we have a consensus. really appreciate all the answers guys, thanks
16 Team, 21 player roster+IR, QB, RB, RB, WR, WR, WR, TE, Flex, DST, K
QB: Murray, Trubisky, Mariota
RB: Fournette, D.Montgomery, A.Jones, Cohen, Kerryon Johnson
WR: R.Woods, AJ Green, Boyd, A.Miller, J. Gordon, Marquise Brown, Boykin, Callaway, MVS, Slayton
TE: Ertz
DST: Vikings, Browns
2020 Picks 1.03, 1.06, 2.03 (19 overall)
QB: Murray, Trubisky, Mariota
RB: Fournette, D.Montgomery, A.Jones, Cohen, Kerryon Johnson
WR: R.Woods, AJ Green, Boyd, A.Miller, J. Gordon, Marquise Brown, Boykin, Callaway, MVS, Slayton
TE: Ertz
DST: Vikings, Browns
2020 Picks 1.03, 1.06, 2.03 (19 overall)
- Shoreline Steamers
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Re: Tie break dilemma
We always use total points after record for the first tie breaker. That way, you don't have to account for scheduling inequities. I'd switch to total points as tie breaker #1 for 2019 followed by H2H as tiebreaker #2.
Besides, everyone has a bad week now and then. It would stink to have a superior team overall during the course of the season (by total points) miss out on the playoffs because another team happened to beat them in a given week during the league schedule.
But for this season, might as well play by the rules you've established and award the playoff spots to Team A and Team B for the reasons already presented.
Besides, everyone has a bad week now and then. It would stink to have a superior team overall during the course of the season (by total points) miss out on the playoffs because another team happened to beat them in a given week during the league schedule.
But for this season, might as well play by the rules you've established and award the playoff spots to Team A and Team B for the reasons already presented.
14 Team, No-PPR, 20 Man Roster, TD Heavy, TD = 6, FG = 3, Start: QB, 2RB, 2WR, TE, Flex, K, D
QB: L. Jackson, B. Purdy, T. Lance
RB: J. Mixon, N. Chubb, A. Dillon, J. Cook, K. Mitchell, J. McLaughlin, Z. Evans
WR: J. Chase, C. Godwin, D. Johnson, J. Reed, C. Tillman
TE: TJ Hockenson, D. Njoku, B. Jordan
14 Team, .5 PPR, 18 Man Roster, Rush/Rec TD = 6, Pass TD = 4, FG = 3, Start: QB, 2RB, 2WR, TE, Flex, K, D
QB: L. Jackson, T. Tagovailoa
RB: B. Robinson, K. Walker, R. Stevenson, K. Herbertl
WR: C. Olave, T. Higgins, B. Aiyuk, N. Collins, Z. Flowers, M. Mims
TE: K. Pitts, D. Njoku
QB: L. Jackson, B. Purdy, T. Lance
RB: J. Mixon, N. Chubb, A. Dillon, J. Cook, K. Mitchell, J. McLaughlin, Z. Evans
WR: J. Chase, C. Godwin, D. Johnson, J. Reed, C. Tillman
TE: TJ Hockenson, D. Njoku, B. Jordan
14 Team, .5 PPR, 18 Man Roster, Rush/Rec TD = 6, Pass TD = 4, FG = 3, Start: QB, 2RB, 2WR, TE, Flex, K, D
QB: L. Jackson, T. Tagovailoa
RB: B. Robinson, K. Walker, R. Stevenson, K. Herbertl
WR: C. Olave, T. Higgins, B. Aiyuk, N. Collins, Z. Flowers, M. Mims
TE: K. Pitts, D. Njoku
Re: Tie break dilemma
I'd eitherNascent wrote: ↑Tue Dec 04, 2018 4:51 pmAny suggestion for the bold bit? it gets complicated with a three team tie and not all teams having played each other. hard to make it clearer.Jigga94 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 04, 2018 4:44 pm I believe the way you are looking at it is correct.
3 way tie between teams for 2 spots.
- Goes to 1st tiebreaker which is null because they didn't play each other or equal games (in a 16 team league this needs to be reconsidered because it will always happen).
- Go to 2nd tiebreaker which is points so Team A is 5 seed.
Now there are 2 teams left
- Tiebreaker 1 is H2H and the 2 teams HAVE played each other so Team B gets 6th seed
You need to square this away for next season though in my opinion. Shouldn't need this much wording in the league rules
I like the way you explain it above though. makes sense.
seems we have a consensus. really appreciate all the answers guys, thanks
A. take the time to write it down concisely to explain the above bit. Where the H2H tiebreaker will only be used if teams have all played each other (I would exclude saying equal amount of times because 1-0 would beat 1-1 for example). It needs to be stated that you look at each seed independently. So exactly like you did with this one with 3 teams. Once you determine 1 out of 3 that made it, the 2 remaining teams are looked at on a separate basis in the tiebreaker breakdown.
B. Just throw out H2H and use total points for because it's easier to understand and in my opinion, more fair
Re: Tie break dilemma
part of the charm of the league is the head to head and rivalry thing rather than just being a spreadsheet straight up points scored. the league has been going coming up a decade and we have very engaged players (all friendly) who contribute, including power rankings and owners adding colour around their franchise in terms of stadium names etc. it's all good fun.Shoreline Steamers wrote: ↑Tue Dec 04, 2018 4:56 pm We always use total points after record for the first tie breaker. That way, you don't have to account for scheduling inequities. I'd switch to total points as tie breaker #1 for 2019 followed by H2H as tiebreaker #2.
Besides, everyone has a bad week now and then. It would stink to have a superior team overall during the course of the season (by total points) miss out on the playoffs because another team happened to beat them in a given week during the league schedule.
But for this season, might as well play by the rules you've established and award the playoff spots to Team A and Team B for the reasons already presented.
4 divisions and a 13 game season works as:
6 games - your three divisional teams home and away
4 games - rotating around the other three divisions as per nfl
3 games - play the teams who finished in the equivalent position to you last year (again a la NFL, 4th place plays other 4th places etc)
We also have a +5 point homefield advantage to incentivise play-off seedings and give a bit more colour to home games in regular season (week 8 is 'London' game week so both teams get +5 to ensure each team plays 6 home, 6 away and one neutral)
then weeks 14-16 are standard play-offs. so the head to head is a big part of our league, it has worked well so far and I am a bit loath to change that now
16 Team, 21 player roster+IR, QB, RB, RB, WR, WR, WR, TE, Flex, DST, K
QB: Murray, Trubisky, Mariota
RB: Fournette, D.Montgomery, A.Jones, Cohen, Kerryon Johnson
WR: R.Woods, AJ Green, Boyd, A.Miller, J. Gordon, Marquise Brown, Boykin, Callaway, MVS, Slayton
TE: Ertz
DST: Vikings, Browns
2020 Picks 1.03, 1.06, 2.03 (19 overall)
QB: Murray, Trubisky, Mariota
RB: Fournette, D.Montgomery, A.Jones, Cohen, Kerryon Johnson
WR: R.Woods, AJ Green, Boyd, A.Miller, J. Gordon, Marquise Brown, Boykin, Callaway, MVS, Slayton
TE: Ertz
DST: Vikings, Browns
2020 Picks 1.03, 1.06, 2.03 (19 overall)
Re: Tie break dilemma
bam, think you nailed it there in bold.Jigga94 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 04, 2018 4:59 pmI'd eitherNascent wrote: ↑Tue Dec 04, 2018 4:51 pmAny suggestion for the bold bit? it gets complicated with a three team tie and not all teams having played each other. hard to make it clearer.Jigga94 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 04, 2018 4:44 pm I believe the way you are looking at it is correct.
3 way tie between teams for 2 spots.
- Goes to 1st tiebreaker which is null because they didn't play each other or equal games (in a 16 team league this needs to be reconsidered because it will always happen).
- Go to 2nd tiebreaker which is points so Team A is 5 seed.
Now there are 2 teams left
- Tiebreaker 1 is H2H and the 2 teams HAVE played each other so Team B gets 6th seed
You need to square this away for next season though in my opinion. Shouldn't need this much wording in the league rules
I like the way you explain it above though. makes sense.
seems we have a consensus. really appreciate all the answers guys, thanks
A. take the time to write it down concisely to explain the above bit. Where the H2H tiebreaker will only be used if teams have all played each other (I would exclude saying equal amount of times because 1-0 would beat 1-1 for example). It needs to be stated that you look at each seed independently. So exactly like you did with this one with 3 teams. Once you determine 1 out of 3 that made it, the 2 remaining teams are looked at on a separate basis in the tiebreaker breakdown.
B. Just throw out H2H and use total points for because it's easier to understand and in my opinion, more fair
we want to keep h2h for reasons i posted above. i think your post here clarifies the rest.
thanks. definitely appreciated. that goes for all respondees
(I'm the 5 seed by the way. started 1&5 and on a 7 game tear!)
16 Team, 21 player roster+IR, QB, RB, RB, WR, WR, WR, TE, Flex, DST, K
QB: Murray, Trubisky, Mariota
RB: Fournette, D.Montgomery, A.Jones, Cohen, Kerryon Johnson
WR: R.Woods, AJ Green, Boyd, A.Miller, J. Gordon, Marquise Brown, Boykin, Callaway, MVS, Slayton
TE: Ertz
DST: Vikings, Browns
2020 Picks 1.03, 1.06, 2.03 (19 overall)
QB: Murray, Trubisky, Mariota
RB: Fournette, D.Montgomery, A.Jones, Cohen, Kerryon Johnson
WR: R.Woods, AJ Green, Boyd, A.Miller, J. Gordon, Marquise Brown, Boykin, Callaway, MVS, Slayton
TE: Ertz
DST: Vikings, Browns
2020 Picks 1.03, 1.06, 2.03 (19 overall)
Re: Tie break dilemma
It's actually quite easy given your rules... Since there is no H2H involving all of the teams, it doesn't apply thus the first team in is based on total points (team A). You then go back and start again to determine the next team in and B defeated C in H2H.
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Re: Tie break dilemma
Total points as tie breaker shouldn't decrease rivalries throughout the season. It just simplifies the process. It's way too messy as it currently stands.Nascent wrote: ↑Tue Dec 04, 2018 5:14 pmpart of the charm of the league is the head to head and rivalry thing rather than just being a spreadsheet straight up points scored. the league has been going coming up a decade and we have very engaged players (all friendly) who contribute, including power rankings and owners adding colour around their franchise in terms of stadium names etc. it's all good fun.Shoreline Steamers wrote: ↑Tue Dec 04, 2018 4:56 pm We always use total points after record for the first tie breaker. That way, you don't have to account for scheduling inequities. I'd switch to total points as tie breaker #1 for 2019 followed by H2H as tiebreaker #2.
Besides, everyone has a bad week now and then. It would stink to have a superior team overall during the course of the season (by total points) miss out on the playoffs because another team happened to beat them in a given week during the league schedule.
But for this season, might as well play by the rules you've established and award the playoff spots to Team A and Team B for the reasons already presented.
4 divisions and a 13 game season works as:
6 games - your three divisional teams home and away
4 games - rotating around the other three divisions as per nfl
3 games - play the teams who finished in the equivalent position to you last year (again a la NFL, 4th place plays other 4th places etc)
We also have a +5 point homefield advantage to incentivise play-off seedings and give a bit more colour to home games in regular season (week 8 is 'London' game week so both teams get +5 to ensure each team plays 6 home, 6 away and one neutral)
then weeks 14-16 are standard play-offs. so the head to head is a big part of our league, it has worked well so far and I am a bit loath to change that now
16 team league
1 QB, 2 RB, 2 WR, 1 TE, 2 Flex (RB/WR/TE)
26 upman rosters - full point ppr
2015, 17, 18, 19, 20 Champs
QB: Watson, Flacco Stidham
RB: Bijan, Gibbs, McLaughlin
WR: Olave, Addison, Flowers, Rice, Sutton, Downs, Mims, Tillman
TE: Kittle, Goedert, Chig, Woods
24 Picks: 1.06
1 QB, 2 RB, 2 WR, 1 TE, 2 Flex (RB/WR/TE)
26 upman rosters - full point ppr
2015, 17, 18, 19, 20 Champs
QB: Watson, Flacco Stidham
RB: Bijan, Gibbs, McLaughlin
WR: Olave, Addison, Flowers, Rice, Sutton, Downs, Mims, Tillman
TE: Kittle, Goedert, Chig, Woods
24 Picks: 1.06
Re: Tie break dilemma
agreed.
16 Team, 21 player roster+IR, QB, RB, RB, WR, WR, WR, TE, Flex, DST, K
QB: Murray, Trubisky, Mariota
RB: Fournette, D.Montgomery, A.Jones, Cohen, Kerryon Johnson
WR: R.Woods, AJ Green, Boyd, A.Miller, J. Gordon, Marquise Brown, Boykin, Callaway, MVS, Slayton
TE: Ertz
DST: Vikings, Browns
2020 Picks 1.03, 1.06, 2.03 (19 overall)
QB: Murray, Trubisky, Mariota
RB: Fournette, D.Montgomery, A.Jones, Cohen, Kerryon Johnson
WR: R.Woods, AJ Green, Boyd, A.Miller, J. Gordon, Marquise Brown, Boykin, Callaway, MVS, Slayton
TE: Ertz
DST: Vikings, Browns
2020 Picks 1.03, 1.06, 2.03 (19 overall)
Re: Tie break dilemma
messy when i am confusing things haha I like the way it is described above by skip and jigga94. v simple. no room for future confusion there i thinkOrenthal Shames wrote: ↑Tue Dec 04, 2018 5:21 pmTotal points as tie breaker shouldn't decrease rivalries throughout the season. It just simplifies the process. It's way too messy as it currently stands.Nascent wrote: ↑Tue Dec 04, 2018 5:14 pmpart of the charm of the league is the head to head and rivalry thing rather than just being a spreadsheet straight up points scored. the league has been going coming up a decade and we have very engaged players (all friendly) who contribute, including power rankings and owners adding colour around their franchise in terms of stadium names etc. it's all good fun.Shoreline Steamers wrote: ↑Tue Dec 04, 2018 4:56 pm We always use total points after record for the first tie breaker. That way, you don't have to account for scheduling inequities. I'd switch to total points as tie breaker #1 for 2019 followed by H2H as tiebreaker #2.
Besides, everyone has a bad week now and then. It would stink to have a superior team overall during the course of the season (by total points) miss out on the playoffs because another team happened to beat them in a given week during the league schedule.
But for this season, might as well play by the rules you've established and award the playoff spots to Team A and Team B for the reasons already presented.
4 divisions and a 13 game season works as:
6 games - your three divisional teams home and away
4 games - rotating around the other three divisions as per nfl
3 games - play the teams who finished in the equivalent position to you last year (again a la NFL, 4th place plays other 4th places etc)
We also have a +5 point homefield advantage to incentivise play-off seedings and give a bit more colour to home games in regular season (week 8 is 'London' game week so both teams get +5 to ensure each team plays 6 home, 6 away and one neutral)
then weeks 14-16 are standard play-offs. so the head to head is a big part of our league, it has worked well so far and I am a bit loath to change that now
16 Team, 21 player roster+IR, QB, RB, RB, WR, WR, WR, TE, Flex, DST, K
QB: Murray, Trubisky, Mariota
RB: Fournette, D.Montgomery, A.Jones, Cohen, Kerryon Johnson
WR: R.Woods, AJ Green, Boyd, A.Miller, J. Gordon, Marquise Brown, Boykin, Callaway, MVS, Slayton
TE: Ertz
DST: Vikings, Browns
2020 Picks 1.03, 1.06, 2.03 (19 overall)
QB: Murray, Trubisky, Mariota
RB: Fournette, D.Montgomery, A.Jones, Cohen, Kerryon Johnson
WR: R.Woods, AJ Green, Boyd, A.Miller, J. Gordon, Marquise Brown, Boykin, Callaway, MVS, Slayton
TE: Ertz
DST: Vikings, Browns
2020 Picks 1.03, 1.06, 2.03 (19 overall)
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