The extremely talented and always underrated Amari Cooper Thread

[Blueboy]

Cooper is on of those guys who seems to have attracted owners who are mysteriously high on him. I've been so curious what some people see in him since he entered the league, and for the record I like him. He as the #2 WR off the board in a startup I did in 2017, after OBJ and before Evans. I just inquired with an owner about his price this week, and was sent an offer or his Cooper for my Hill + 2nd. Different owners, too.

[Phaded]

One thing to notice is how effective Cooper actually is playing off the line and in the slot. His route ability out of breaks is elite on tape.

I have been saying that Cooper is best used as a slot receiver for years.
I even said as much in my infamous Cooper thread from a couple years ago.

He does not have the skill set to be an effective outside receiver.

[Pullo Vision]

One thing to notice is how effective Cooper actually is playing off the line and in the slot. His route ability out of breaks is elite on tape.

I have been saying that Cooper is best used as a slot receiver for years.
I even said as much in my infamous Cooper thread from a couple years ago.

He does not have the skill set to be an effective outside receiver.

And it's why I'm pessimistic about the trade. He'll have to fight Beasley. And he'll lose.

[Bot101]

One thing to notice is how effective Cooper actually is playing off the line and in the slot. His route ability out of breaks is elite on tape.

I have been saying that Cooper is best used as a slot receiver for years.
I even said as much in my infamous Cooper thread from a couple years ago.

He does not have the skill set to be an effective outside receiver.

And it's why I'm pessimistic about the trade. He'll have to fight Beasley. And he'll lose.

Garrett indicated in the introductory press conference regarding Cooper that he will be playing outside.

[Valhalla]

Garrett indicated

That alone should cause people to hesitate on any claims that Cooper will "now be used appropriately."

This is not the coach you are looking for. Move along.

[thebeast]

You mean in '17? I guess if you look only at the surface....
Underneath the fluff Crabtree needed 101 targets to catch 58 passes facing the #2/#3 corners, and on those 58 passes he caught 8 TDs, a rate of 14% per pass which is unusually high. Further than that Crabtree received better targets than Cooper, as his catchable target rate was 82% whilst Cooper's was 68%. The offense was inefficient and it has continued to be so. I think probably both players had a hand in being the problem, but going forward I am betting Cooper becomes more of a solution than does Carr. I wouldn't be surprised to see Gruden go completely away from Carr at the drop of a hat.

This makes no sense. All the WR1s in the league face the top CBs, plenty have worse QBs but have better production. “#2” WRs don’t routinely outscore the #1 because they faced weaker corners. If that was the case the number 2 guys would be more valuable for fantasy. Silly argument Oldman.

I have no skin in this game and have 0 opinion or shares of Cooper. With that said, isn't this an extreme over simplification of things? There are stretches where number 2 receivers are more valuable than 1s. Shepard with ODB and Ridley with Julio for certain games. Then there are times where #2s have very similar or greater production than the typically thought about 1's. See Marvin Jones and Golden Tate/Alshon Jeffery Agholor. The latter had more to do with QB shift, but the point still stands. Sometimes 1's are less productive and used as decoys when they are drawing significant coverage. WR1 and 2's have more of a symbiotic relationship than you are admitting.

I also have zero shares of Cooper, so don't really care. But to address your point we are discussing season long and longterm value, not game to game variance. Sure there are times when #2's outscore the #1, but you expect the #1 to have the higher value over the course of the season which is well why they would be the #1. People treated Cooper's value as #1 while watching Crabtree actually produce better numbers over the course of two seasons. Now that Crabtree has moved on Cooper has gotten even worse, which makes you think Crabtree might have actually opened things up for Cooper.

[Jfever]

Me either Valhalla. It is a touch overwhelming. And - Further proof that people have a innate tendency to see what they want to see and hear what they want to hear.

For me, I want nothing to do with Cooper, Dak, or the Raiders. I strongly believe that people misinterpret analytics far too often and twist statistics to suit their own subtle biases. All I hve to do is watch Dak play to know he isn't a top tier passing qb. I'll I have to do is watch Cooper to know that he isn't a wr1 in fantasy. But, in fantasy, differing opinions are what make it fun / more interesting.

Not a WR1, but would you yourself be ok with his as your 2nd or 3rd?

Depends on the rest of my roster. I don't think I'd want him as my 2nd or 3rd wr. Most leagues I'm in I can start 3-4 wr. I guess in a vacuum, I'd be ok with Cooper as my #4 on a young team but not on a competitive team. I wouldn't want to depend on him. I don't think Dak is a good passer. I don't think Dak is accurate and I'm not sure that Cooper will complement Dak's strengths / weaknesses like the Cowboys are hoping. This move for them is a head scratcher. Imo they should have and could have addressed their wr situation much differently. Too much pride in Jerry. Fun to watch though.

To prove that I'm not just words; Last week I was offered a trade of A.Cooper for my Rojo. On the surface, it seemed like a snap accept as Cooper is still so young, but, I declined. To be fair though, in that league I have a wr corp to drool over. OBJ, Hopkins, M.Evans, Juju, C.Davis, M.Williams, and K.Cole. Trade just made no sense for me.

[notweswelker]

Carr didn't seem to hurt Crabtree too much. Hmmmm.

You mean in '17? I guess if you look only at the surface....
Underneath the fluff Crabtree needed 101 targets to catch 58 passes facing the #2/#3 corners, and on those 58 passes he caught 8 TDs, a rate of 14% per pass which is unusually high. Further than that Crabtree received better targets than Cooper, as his catchable target rate was 82% whilst Cooper's was 68%. The offense was inefficient and it has continued to be so. I think probably both players had a hand in being the problem, but going forward I am betting Cooper becomes more of a solution than does Carr. I wouldn't be surprised to see Gruden go completely away from Carr at the drop of a hat.

This makes no sense. All the WR1s in the league face the top CBs, plenty have worse QBs but have better production. “#2” WRs don’t routinely outscore the #1 because they faced weaker corners. If that was the case the number 2 guys would be more valuable for fantasy. Silly argument Oldman.

Actually that's becoming fairly common... Maybe you don't watch much actual football these days? Coaches have been routinely moving their top WRs across formations as well as into the slot to get them away from the other team's top corner because of exactly that phenomenon. Going off the top though, you're addressing my entire argument by nitpicking the point about corners. Crabtree is an extremely talented wide receiver just as Cooper is, #1/#2 is a cute fantasy term but in reality there's a lot of tandems without true 1s or 2s. In 2016-2017 Crabtree got to face weaker competition, received more targets, and those he received were better targets from Carr, this is literally fact. I'm not sure how you could expect him to outproduce Crabtree with those known circumstances.

[thebeast]

^ So you think if Hopkins or Beckham was in the same situation that Crabtree would be out producing them? If your argument is that Cooper is in fact a WR2 and should be treated as such I can get on board with that. But he has been treated as an elite asset, which he isn't and I find it unlikely the change in scenery is going to change that for him. You can make whatever argument you like, but the fact is his production has been declining for 2.5 years now, yet people keep making excuses for him. Crabtree received more targets because his QB probably felt he was the better option to throw the ball to, I don't know if you've even been a QB before, but if you had you would know you quickly lock on to the best WR and feed the guys you trust (this is why guys like Hopkins and Landry get fed). Carr clearly trusted Crabtree far more.

[notweswelker]

^ So you think if Hopkins or Beckham was in the same situation that Crabtree would be out producing them? If your argument is that Cooper is in fact a WR2 and should be treated as such I can get on board with that. But he has been treated as an elite asset, which he isn't and I find it unlikely the change in scenery is going to change that for him. You can make whatever argument you like, but the fact is his production has been declining for 2.5 years now, yet people keep making excuses for him. Crabtree received more targets because his QB probably felt he was the better option to throw the ball to, I don't know if you've even been a QB before, but if you had you would know you quickly lock on to the best WR and feed the guys you trust (this is why guys like Hopkins and Landry get fed). Carr clearly trusted Crabtree far more.

That makes sense, but the target quality does not. I don't see Amari Cooper as Hopkins or Beckham level, but there's pretty much no one on their level, and he's not priced anywhere near that range. I think he's a lower tier WR1 at his ceiling, talent is on a similar level to Crabtree in my opinion, but the big difference is 7 years of age. If Crabtree was 24 years old I would value him on par with Cooper. Still I think the criticisms of him are a bit overblown, and the potential for his current price is too good to pass up. I think he's going to get fed in Dallas because of the price they paid for him and the only target competition is Cole effing Beasley. I guess we will see.

[Pullo Vision]

Me either Valhalla. It is a touch overwhelming. And - Further proof that people have a innate tendency to see what they want to see and hear what they want to hear.

For me, I want nothing to do with Cooper, Dak, or the Raiders. I strongly believe that people misinterpret analytics far too often and twist statistics to suit their own subtle biases. All I hve to do is watch Dak play to know he isn't a top tier passing qb. I'll I have to do is watch Cooper to know that he isn't a wr1 in fantasy. But, in fantasy, differing opinions are what make it fun / more interesting.

Not a WR1, but would you yourself be ok with his as your 2nd or 3rd?

Depends on the rest of my roster. I don't think I'd want him as my 2nd or 3rd wr. Most leagues I'm in I can start 3-4 wr. I guess in a vacuum, I'd be ok with Cooper as my #4 on a young team but not on a competitive team. I wouldn't want to depend on him. I don't think Dak is a good passer. I don't think Dak is accurate and I'm not sure that Cooper will complement Dak's strengths / weaknesses like the Cowboys are hoping. This move for them is a head scratcher. Imo they should have and could have addressed their wr situation much differently. Too much pride in Jerry. Fun to watch though.

To prove that I'm not just words; Last week I was offered a trade of A.Cooper for my Rojo. On the surface, it seemed like a snap accept as Cooper is still so young, but, I declined. To be fair though, in that league I have a wr corp to drool over. OBJ, Hopkins, M.Evans, Juju, C.Davis, M.Williams, and K.Cole. Trade just made no sense for me.

That's fair. I like to have a guy who can erupt at any time points wise as my 3rd WR. That usually means downfield guys like DJax and Fuller, but Cooper has done the job. If I were contending and Cooper was my 2nd WR, I'd want a strong RB group to compensate.

That Cooper trade offer was certainly interesting and the team context provides valuable info. In one league I'm in, WRs have enhanced values, but in another, it's the RBs. Unfortunately, I have Cooper in the RB league. He was dealt in the WR league for what will be the 6th pick at worst, and could become as high as 3rd.

I found an article arguing for the trade being great all round for Dallas- https://dynastyfootballfactory.com/amar ... m-oakland/. It's got the most concentrated collection of pro-Amari stats than any other article or thread I've seen.

[thebeast]

^ So you think if Hopkins or Beckham was in the same situation that Crabtree would be out producing them? If your argument is that Cooper is in fact a WR2 and should be treated as such I can get on board with that. But he has been treated as an elite asset, which he isn't and I find it unlikely the change in scenery is going to change that for him. You can make whatever argument you like, but the fact is his production has been declining for 2.5 years now, yet people keep making excuses for him. Crabtree received more targets because his QB probably felt he was the better option to throw the ball to, I don't know if you've even been a QB before, but if you had you would know you quickly lock on to the best WR and feed the guys you trust (this is why guys like Hopkins and Landry get fed). Carr clearly trusted Crabtree far more.

That makes sense, but the target quality does not. I don't see Amari Cooper as Hopkins or Beckham level, but there's pretty much no one on their level, and he's not priced anywhere near that range. I think he's a lower tier WR1 at his ceiling, talent is on a similar level to Crabtree in my opinion, but the big difference is 7 years of age. If Crabtree was 24 years old I would value him on par with Cooper. Still I think the criticisms of him are a bit overblown, and the potential for his current price is too good to pass up. I think he's going to get fed in Dallas because of the price they paid for him and the only target competition is Cole effing Beasley. I guess we will see.

Those are both very good points. I guess it depends how he is being valued and what his cost is. Preseason I made an offer for him in one league and was told he was a top 10 asset. I sold him in another for 1.02 and a pick bump to 1.05 from 1.08.

[AussieMate]

What do we think after 2 games at Dallas? My hope was for Coop to get around 6-7 targets a game with 50-70 yards and an occasional td. Doubt he'll ever live up to his draft spot but certainly could be a serviceable wr2 on a team for the future.
Can always hope he only gets better with his Dak connection but who knows, it is good seeing him line up out the slot every now and then as he needs to be moved around to be effective.

[Wile E. Coyote]

It is good to see Cooper doing better and he seems to be more involved in Dallas, but I too don't expect him to live up to the hype that he had early on in his career.

[Flschbrger]

Just 2 games but looks to be having WR2 value. With everything owners have gone through its absolutely a positive.