Empty trade offers

General talk about Dynasty Leagues.
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thebeast
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Re: Empty trade offers

Postby thebeast » Mon Sep 17, 2018 8:14 am

SCYCPA wrote: Mon Sep 17, 2018 6:16 am
trc wrote: Sun Sep 16, 2018 9:58 am I really don't get the lazy part from everyone responding.

Just send an empty trade offer back, showing which player you find interesting.

If I want to send a solid offer to someone, I would rather know which of my players have interest for that potential trade-partner, instead of spending time guessing.
Sending an empty trade offer tells me nothing I don't already know. I have the commodity/player that he wants, but he hasn't shown me what's in it for me to give it up. He hasn't even interested me, let alone gotten me invested in helping him toward his objective (getting my player on his team). He hasn't even tried to distinguish himself from all the other options that I have to either trade or hang on to the player.

For example, if someone sends me an empty trade offer with me giving Gurley (as an example), I already know he is interested in trading for Gurley. So is the whole rest of the league. So what distinguishes that someone from everyone else in the league, or even from the viable alternative of keeping Gurley on my team? What he's offering to give me in return is the ONLY way to distinguish himself, and he hasn't even done that. That's why I always say, make a strong offer, distinguish yourself.

Comes down to the basic definition of a transaction. He gets something, I get something else. If he can't show me my benefit from the exchange, there's no reason for me to consider it. Takes very little thought or effort to put an asset or two on his side, that's why it's lazy.
Ugh, everything you said is basically wrong.

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Re: Empty trade offers

Postby heyfeefellskee » Mon Sep 17, 2018 8:18 am

It depends on context. If I know that there are certain players that the owner knows I have interest in and is sending me an empty offer to show me what he's interested in, that's fine.

I have one guy, though, that I feel like heard the advice "never make the first offer" and desperately clings to that view--he always asks what I want for player X, and only if really pushed does he ever make a verbal offer, which is always a pretty dramatic lowball.

If I get an unsolicited empty offer, unless I have a good experience with the owner, I'm likely ignoring it.

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Re: Empty trade offers

Postby Dookmarriot » Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:22 am

SCYCPA wrote: Sun Sep 16, 2018 6:48 am
Titus Young's Lawyer wrote: Tue Sep 11, 2018 2:05 pm This year I’m seeing a new trend of where I’m getting trade offers with a couple of my players listed with nothing from the other team with a message “I’m interested in these guys what are you looking for”. Not sure what the community thinks but I view these as an abuse of the trade system. I’m all for discussing a trade via league chat or trade bait but I view this as just another way for a team not to have to play their cards first. If you want these players from my team put down what you are going to give up. Am I just being a bitter old dynasty player?
I've always hated this. When somebody sends these I ignore it.
Send a damn legit strong offer or don't bother. Show me what you're going to do in the trade for me.
I evaluate the first offer as to how credible the trade partner is and whether I want to go forward. These empty offers have zero credibility.
"Sure, that attractive girl said she'd like to go on a date, but I shut her down because she couldn't provide me with an itemized itinerary."
"I like reading the predictions of the morons on here and cashing in by doing the opposite. Especially Dookmariot." - Lotto4Life

"Because of (the Raiders), there's the no-clothesline rule, the no-hitting-out-of-bounds rule, the no-fumbling-forward-in-the-last-two-minutes rule, the no-throwing-helmets rule and the no-Stickum rule. So you see, we're not all bad." - Ted "The Mad Stork" Hendricks

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Re: Empty trade offers

Postby trc » Mon Sep 17, 2018 10:30 am

Krypto_King wrote: Mon Sep 17, 2018 6:45 am
SCYCPA wrote: Mon Sep 17, 2018 6:16 am
Sending an empty trade offer tells me nothing I don't already know. I have the commodity/player that he wants, but he hasn't shown me what's in it for me to give it up. He hasn't even interested me, let alone gotten me invested in helping him toward his objective (getting my player on his team). He hasn't even tried to distinguish himself from all the other options that I have to either trade or hang on to the player.

For example, if someone sends me an empty trade offer with me giving Gurley (as an example), I already know he is interested in trading for Gurley. So is the whole rest of the league. So what distinguishes that someone from everyone else in the league, or even from the viable alternative of keeping Gurley on my team? What he's offering to give me in return is the ONLY way to distinguish himself, and he hasn't even done that. That's why I always say, make a strong offer, distinguish yourself.

Comes down to the basic definition of a transaction. He gets something, I get something else. If he can't show me my benefit from the exchange, there's no reason for me to consider it. Takes very little thought or effort to put an asset or two on his side, that's why it's lazy.
yeah I just disagree with this. How could you know he wants your player until he sends you the offer? That would count as something you don't know. Also, just because a player is a stud doesn't mean every team in the league would pay fair price for them. I could have a team where I value depth over studs. I could have a team where Gurley isn't enough to make me a contender so why consolidate for a RB. I could have a team with 3 other great RBs and be needy elsewhere. And he is showing you something. He's showing you his roster, prodding you to take a deeper look. This is the scene where the drug dealer lines up all his merch on the table and asks what interests you. Rarely do I get counters to cold offers, starting a dialogue means I am very willing to negotiate. I think a blank offer is just one tactic for this.

This isn't the cold war, people. It's just a game. Leagues are much more enjoyable when people aren't trying to trick and deceive other strangers.
I read Scypa's response on my phone and my initial thought was something like 'easy, its' FF not a marriage proposal'.

To expand on my initial post - I NEVER expect to receive an actual offer from the 'other guy', just a list of guys. I even include that as text in my 'empty trade offer'.

When I receive the empty offer, I NEVER make the first move, and I firmly hold my ground about it.

But I can see Scypa has been burned by this, understand why you don't want to go down that road again. Though reconsinder it, no reason to shut down possible great trade, just because someone is using a different approach than you.

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Re: Empty trade offers

Postby Mephistopheles » Mon Sep 17, 2018 11:03 am

Dookmariot wrote: Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:22 am
SCYCPA wrote: Sun Sep 16, 2018 6:48 am
Titus Young's Lawyer wrote: Tue Sep 11, 2018 2:05 pm This year I’m seeing a new trend of where I’m getting trade offers with a couple of my players listed with nothing from the other team with a message “I’m interested in these guys what are you looking for”. Not sure what the community thinks but I view these as an abuse of the trade system. I’m all for discussing a trade via league chat or trade bait but I view this as just another way for a team not to have to play their cards first. If you want these players from my team put down what you are going to give up. Am I just being a bitter old dynasty player?
I've always hated this. When somebody sends these I ignore it.
Send a damn legit strong offer or don't bother. Show me what you're going to do in the trade for me.
I evaluate the first offer as to how credible the trade partner is and whether I want to go forward. These empty offers have zero credibility.
"Sure, that attractive girl said she'd like to go on a date, but I shut her down because she couldn't provide me with an itemized itinerary."
Not sure what you're getting at here, but given that I'm married for 20 years to a woman with Irish and Cherokee blood (and the temper to boot), plus with 4 kids, I'd venture to say that an "itemized itinerary" would probably be the least of my or the hypothetical attractive girl's concerns. :lol: :lol:

Playing along, though - there's a bit of a difference. The hypothetical attractive girl - let's call her "HAG" for short - has proposed something, a date. I can counter with a quick nooner, and we can settle in the middle for a lap dance. But at least she offered something.

Better analogy is that these empty offers are like the HAG calling my phone and hanging up, and hoping I'll use that "Star-" whatever it is feature to call her back.
PSA - Haggling is NOT the same as negotiating.

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Re: Empty trade offers

Postby Dookmarriot » Mon Sep 17, 2018 11:21 am

SCYCPA wrote: Mon Sep 17, 2018 11:03 am
Dookmariot wrote: Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:22 am
SCYCPA wrote: Sun Sep 16, 2018 6:48 am

I've always hated this. When somebody sends these I ignore it.
Send a damn legit strong offer or don't bother. Show me what you're going to do in the trade for me.
I evaluate the first offer as to how credible the trade partner is and whether I want to go forward. These empty offers have zero credibility.
"Sure, that attractive girl said she'd like to go on a date, but I shut her down because she couldn't provide me with an itemized itinerary."
Not sure what you're getting at here, but given that I'm married for 20 years to a woman with Irish and Cherokee blood (and the temper to boot), plus with 4 kids, I'd venture to say that an "itemized itinerary" would probably be the least of my or the hypothetical attractive girl's concerns. :lol: :lol:

Playing along, though - there's a bit of a difference. The hypothetical attractive girl - let's call her "HAG" for short - has proposed something, a date. I can counter with a quick nooner, and we can settle in the middle for a lap dance. But at least she offered something.

Better analogy is that these empty offers are like the HAG calling my phone and hanging up, and hoping I'll use that "Star-" whatever it is feature to call her back.
:lol:

Glad you're taking it in the spirit it was meant.

Me, I'm glad of any trade offers. The lowballs. The empty ones. The RotoWorld blurb specials. The chat or the email instead of a offer. It's all fun, and I'll never get upset about someone using a different strategy or technique than I do.

In my one league, there's a guy who sometimes will send me 5 offers a day when I have someone he wants. Our valuations differ quite a bit so most of them are insta-rejects, and often he forgets his previous offers (which were rejected with reasons) and sends the same offers again. And again.

But you know what? He's my most frequent trading partner. Does his method sometimes annoy me? Yeah, it can. But it's led to many mutually beneficial trades, so what is there to worry about?
"I like reading the predictions of the morons on here and cashing in by doing the opposite. Especially Dookmariot." - Lotto4Life

"Because of (the Raiders), there's the no-clothesline rule, the no-hitting-out-of-bounds rule, the no-fumbling-forward-in-the-last-two-minutes rule, the no-throwing-helmets rule and the no-Stickum rule. So you see, we're not all bad." - Ted "The Mad Stork" Hendricks

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Re: Empty trade offers

Postby skip » Mon Sep 17, 2018 11:31 am

Papa Stephano wrote: Wed Sep 12, 2018 9:49 am Well, I'm that guy. I like to say who I'm interested in and offer them to take a look at my roster and let me know if there's something that interests them. I like to see what they come back with, I want them to make the first offer.
You're exactly the kind of owner I won't dialogue with regarding a trade. The burden is entirely on you to create the offer if there is someone you want.

As to the empty offers, I have no issue with them as I agree with this that consider this just a replacement means than using email. But you can expect a minimal reply. That reply will basically be "send an offer".
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Re: Empty trade offers

Postby fruity pebbles » Mon Sep 17, 2018 12:17 pm

They dont bother me. I just reject and send a similar empty offer with the guys on his team who interest me. Simple as that. Balls in his court. He can send an offer with one or more of the guys i like or he doesnt.

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Re: Empty trade offers

Postby Dookmarriot » Mon Sep 17, 2018 1:08 pm

fruity pebbles wrote: Mon Sep 17, 2018 12:17 pm They dont bother me. I just reject and send a similar empty offer with the guys on his team who interest me. Simple as that. Balls in his court. He can send an offer with one or more of the guys i like or he doesnt.
Personally, I'd love that kind of reply. We've both planted a flag, and we can then try to find an offer that works.
"I like reading the predictions of the morons on here and cashing in by doing the opposite. Especially Dookmariot." - Lotto4Life

"Because of (the Raiders), there's the no-clothesline rule, the no-hitting-out-of-bounds rule, the no-fumbling-forward-in-the-last-two-minutes rule, the no-throwing-helmets rule and the no-Stickum rule. So you see, we're not all bad." - Ted "The Mad Stork" Hendricks

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Re: Empty trade offers

Postby fruity pebbles » Mon Sep 17, 2018 1:14 pm

Dookmariot wrote: Mon Sep 17, 2018 1:08 pm
fruity pebbles wrote: Mon Sep 17, 2018 12:17 pm They dont bother me. I just reject and send a similar empty offer with the guys on his team who interest me. Simple as that. Balls in his court. He can send an offer with one or more of the guys i like or he doesnt.
Personally, I'd love that kind of reply. We've both planted a flag, and we can then try to find an offer that works.
Yeah, i dont get the get mad or ignore mindset. Trade talks start in a variety of ways. Why shut down talks before they have even begun.

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Re: Empty trade offers

Postby YourAverageFan » Mon Sep 17, 2018 2:05 pm

Dookmariot wrote: Tue Sep 11, 2018 7:16 pm I use this tactic all the time. I do it because I like to discuss things with the other owner, particularly if I don't know them well.

I think building knowledge of and relationships with your leaguemates is what differentiates the fun leagues from the rote ones. Are you looking to contend or rebuild? What players on my team interest you? Are you more about age and value or production? Once you have a good idea what the other owner wants, you can send an offer with a better chance of getting accepted (rather than a lowball, or offering a player the other owner hates) and even better deal that is mutually beneficial.

I love the negotiation process, so naturally I lead in a manner that follows what I find fun. I don't do it to antagonize...to me it's the FF equivalent of saying to someone "I like your car. Any chance you're selling?" And since I'm a fairly active trader with (I'd like to think) a rep of making deals that help both sides (I'm not afraid of giving up value, believe me) I think broadly it works as an opener - IF you're willing to listen to what the other owner is saying.
I am similar to you. I am asking what a potential trade partner wants because I really just want to know what perceived needs that player has. There are times when I have made separate offers/variations of players "a, b, c, d" for player "x" only to find out way after the fact that they prefer a higher draft pick or player "e". It would have been so much easier to know what they are looking for in the first place.

Also when I ask what the owner has interest in, I am not asking the owner to put together the trade or to find players on my roster that equal out in value. I am planning to put together the offers. But from my perspective, why wouldn't anyone want a potential trade partner to start out by asking general "who on my team interests you"? I get more frustrated when I get multiple variations of the same offer for my player x when they don't seem to consider how none of the offers meet my needs.
Team 1 12 team .5ppr QB/2RB/2WR/TE/FL
Wilson, Cousins, Lawrence
Barkley, Montgomery, Roschon Johnson, K. Miller, Herbert, R. White, C. Brown
T. Hill, AJ Brown, Waddle, Godwin, Zay, ASJ, M. Brown, J. Downs, Boyd
Andrews, Goedert

Team 2 12 Team SF .5ppr QB/2RB/3WR/TE/SF
Dak, Watson, Ryan, Z Wilson, Rush, Heinicke
Bijan, Dobbins, Pierce, Lindsay, Moss, Gibbs
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Re: Empty trade offers

Postby ArrylT » Mon Sep 17, 2018 6:56 pm

DLF3000 wrote: Sun Sep 16, 2018 8:10 am Everyone's trade style is different. You WILL absolutely hate some players' trade styles, no question.

Too aggressive, too conservative, too flaky, too unresponsive, too lazy... and on and on.

Bottom line, willing trade partners get deals done. If you're not willing for whatever reason - style or substance - they don't get done. Communicate, meet them half way... or don't.

It's all in how you prefer to handle initiating or responding to initial "offers" - legit or otherwise. There is no universally right or best approach.

You could be the ideal communicator and/or trade partner... but it won't matter if the other person is an absolute turd on those levels.
:clap: :clap:

Well said, I doubt I could have said it better.
Please speak to clarion contrarion before considering the use of vetos..

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Re: Empty trade offers

Postby jordanzs » Tue Sep 18, 2018 4:42 pm

I'm ok with it but I would rather just text the other owner or ask them that question in the private league chat.

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Re: Empty trade offers

Postby bjd5211 » Tue Sep 18, 2018 5:41 pm

No trade approach bothers me, always happy to talk trade no matter how it is initiated. The only thing that bothers me is poor reactions to trade rejections or counters, like messaging me and accusing me of trying to rip them off or getting mad because they think I'm over/under valuing a certain player. There's always that one guy in the league who thinks anyone that doesn't agree with his opinions is wrong, I don't make many trades with that guy...

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Re: Empty trade offers

Postby Mephistopheles » Tue Sep 18, 2018 6:34 pm

bjd5211 wrote: Tue Sep 18, 2018 5:41 pm No trade approach bothers me, always happy to talk trade no matter how it is initiated. The only thing that bothers me is poor reactions to trade rejections or counters, like messaging me and accusing me of trying to rip them off or getting mad because they think I'm over/under valuing a certain player. There's always that one guy in the league who thinks anyone that doesn't agree with his opinions is wrong, I don't make many trades with that guy...
Those are the guys that make trading fun. I troll the bleep out of guys like that.

Had one last week-he needs a WR badly, I offered him Chris Hogan for J. Conner
His response: OMFG WTF is this. Didn't you see Conner last week he outscored Hogan 40 to 1 (or something like that)
My response: Okay how about this, (send offer of DeSean Jackson and Ryan Fitzpatrick for Todd Gurley.
His response: OMFG WTF is that???
My response: Didn't you see DeSean and Fitz last week, they outscored Gurley 77 to 24.
His response: Radio silence.

I love trading.
PSA - Haggling is NOT the same as negotiating.


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