Value of WRs verses RBs

[MR ROURKE]

You can find a RB here or there cheap that blows up for a single season to fill in. Yes, that's true. Foster and Hillis were this year's models. Last year it was Fred Jackson. The year before it was Thomas Jones. But, then the fall away into obscurity again and can be nearly worthless a year later. WRs come out of nowhere every year too. This year's versions were Steve Johnson and Brandon Lloyd. Last years were Miles Austin and Desean Jackson. The year before it was Antonio Bryant. So, both have their share of guys who rise and fall with each year.

I agree that RBBC and scoring systems tending towards PPR, as well as how today's NFL offenses produce, is narrowing the gap between RBs and WRs. I just don't think the value of the WR has over taken the RB yet. And, I'm not sure it ever will.

The NFL has greatly devalued the RB position over time. The drafting of the RB has changed with the NFL philosopy's and NFL offense's. RB talent lasts a lot longer then it used to in the NFL draft. That is because they have found that the RB position is one that can be replaced relatively easily when judging against other positions.

[MR ROURKE]

MENTIONED IN THE POST RIGHT BEFORE YOURS.

No... it doesn't. I reread your post and your post says that there have been several good RB's and that the RB depth is deeper then normal. I'm sure you needed the capital letter though.

Ok clearly there is someting about the concept of VALUE that you do not understand......either that or maybe you mean to imply that I did not go into greater detail about the devaluation of RB's - which is true...so I'll assume the latter. But I was speaking to the point of you saying that NOBODY HAD touched on the devaluation of RB's...when it clearly implicated in the statement "the RB depth is deeper than usual".

the MORE OF SOMETHING THERE IS
the LESS VALUABLE IT IS

thus me saying that the RB depth is deeper than usual
means that
I am in fact acknowledging that RB's have lost some value


Thus you were wrong in saying nobody had touched on it.

So we agree that RB's have lost some value - true. The only disagreement is how much RB's have been devalued. And my position is surely not enough to make them less valuable than WR's at this point.

The point of my statement was that RB's were going to lose futher value in the future due to 18 game seasons and further inplications of the RBBC... so, no one addressed that before me... including you... even though you seem to think you know everything. Grow up

[BradyT]

Play nicely fellas.. we had this before

[standard_variance]

Standard Variance, you've made lots of good points, but I have a problem with this...

"Here is something that has also gone slightly unmentioned i believe. Most teams start 3 WR's and 1 RB. Thats 96 WR's and 32 RB's...even if the entire league relied on a 2 RBBC system thats still only 64 RB's in comparison to 96 WR's. Top end RB's will still always slightly be more valuable unless RBBC starts to significantly affect how many WR's start across the board. My guess is - that wont happen."

I don't think that's something that can be said across the board. With as many different formations and offensive packages as most teams use these days, I think you would actually have to see the numbers in order to give a figure like that. If you think about how many teams have a true "feature back" that get 80%+, there aren't very many. My guess is you would have to add at least 20 RB's to your count (again, just a guess w/o looking at the snap counts).

Also, if you account for the 2-back (and even 3-back) sets and 2 TE sets where there is 2 or less WR's on the field, you would have to subtract from your WR number of 96 started. Not to mention that just b/c you say 96 WR start, doesn't mean 96 WR are valuable. I'd argue all of the "starting RB's" are valuable where as some of those 96 WR's aren't even a top 3-4 option in their team's offense.

While you are nitpicking at numbers you missed the essence of the point. Regardless of whether or not there is 1, 2, 3 or 4 WR's on the field there is SELDOM 2 RB's on the field. Hence while WR's can co-exist on the field...RB's do not thus why when i doubled the RB's (because of RBBC) I did not decrease the WR's because RB's share touches in a different manner than WR's...Though it is possible that the numbers would decrease slightly the amount of RB's that are used wouldnt affect the WR's on the field...thus your counter-point would be moot.

Even if only 2 WR's from each team (64 WR's) were productive you would still need close to EVERY TEAM to have a highly productive 2 Runningback system for you to even begin to legitimately say that WR's have as much as, or more value than RB's. If the NFL was becoming more of a runningback oriented league instead of a QB oriented league i would agree with the notion that WR's would eventually become more valuable. But as long as its a passing dominated league top end RB's will be more valuable.

On to the next post.

[standard_variance]

No... it doesn't. I reread your post and your post says that there have been several good RB's and that the RB depth is deeper then normal. I'm sure you needed the capital letter though.

either that or maybe you mean to imply that I did not go into greater detail about the devaluation of RB's - which is true...so I'll assume the latter.

The point of my statement was that RB's were going to lose futher value in the future due to 18 game seasons and further inplications of the RBBC...

Ok so there was a misunderstanding like I stated I thought there was. No big deal. There are multiple factors in the devaluation of RB's and I touched on one, and you were thinking about another. Your statement was general - "nobody has touched on the devaluation of RB's". But what you were thinking was specific factor that nobody had touched on. So when you said "nobody has touched on IT"...your IT, was different than my IT. It was a mix-up. You made a mistake. Its ok, Im not rubbing you for it, I was just pointing out that IT had been touched on and I was confused as to why you thought IT hadnt been. Calm down. I didnt say anything out of line, or offensive, and I didnt cry about anything you said. So lets keep our emotions in check and continue on with the scholarly discussion we are having. The only people we should be telling to grow up are ourselves, not each other. Not here to fight with you, that'd be a waste of my time. K? Cool.

On to the next post

[MARKinMI]

Wow... I can't quote all of standard variance's comments so I'll just say I don't think I've ever disagreed so much wirh one persons take on this site. which is fine because everyone is entitled to an opinion. I believe about 50 posts ago this all started by asking about the value of the 2 positions in a PPR league. When you look at that I have no problem taking a young stud WR over a RB in a dynasty league. Redraft probably not yet but I see that era comming also.
And for the guy who asked if you would rather have AP for 5 great years or Megatron for 8. That's not even a realistic question. There's little to no chance AP has 5 yrs of elite football left. I take elite as meaning top 5 RB, He'd be 31 yrs old in that scenario. I plan on trying to get 1 maybe 2 more yrs out of him before I deal him off. I'm guessing he's got 3 good years left. He takes a hell of a pounding and if you've seen him over the course of his career he already looks slower than he did his rookie yr. just look at his long runs the last few yrs compared to his rookie year if you don't believe me. It just seems to me that people are always chasing that elite RB after he has his big year. stud wrs usually show up yr after yr. I don't think stud RBs are quite as reliable as most people claim they are. A lot of these guys could finish 1st or 10th in RB scoring in any given yr. There's always a new beast every yr that wasn't highly regarded. and that new beast is the reason you guys love RBs. the only problem is you guys are always trying to get him after his career year. Who's next yrs RB1 gonna be???? I'll take the elite WR for a 8-10 yrs in a PPR dynasty league over a RB. I understand value and supply and demand. but its still fantasy football and you still have to score the most points each week. a free 100 pts for an elite WR in a PPR is better than a free 30 from Peterson. especially now that RBs aren't scorinf TDs like emmitt,faulk & priest and others did. now your lucky to get 10... JUST LIKE A WR only you don't get the ppr pts

[standard_variance]

Wow... I can't quote all of standard variance's comments so I'll just say I don't think I've ever disagreed so much wirh one persons take on this site. which is fine because everyone is entitled to an opinion. I believe about 50 posts ago this all started by asking about the value of the 2 positions in a PPR league. When you look at that I have no problem taking a young stud WR over a RB in a dynasty league. Redraft probably not yet but I see that era comming also.
And for the guy who asked if you would rather have AP for 5 great years or Megatron for 8. That's not even a realistic question. There's little to no chance AP has 5 yrs of elite football left. I take elite as meaning top 5 RB, He'd be 31 yrs old in that scenario. I plan on trying to get 1 maybe 2 more yrs out of him before I deal him off. I'm guessing he's got 3 good years left. He takes a hell of a pounding and if you've seen him over the course of his career he already looks slower than he did his rookie yr. just look at his long runs the last few yrs compared to his rookie year if you don't believe me. It just seems to me that people are always chasing that elite RB after he has his big year. stud wrs usually show up yr after yr. I don't think stud RBs are quite as reliable as most people claim they are. A lot of these guys could finish 1st or 10th in RB scoring in any given yr. There's always a new beast every yr that wasn't highly regarded. and that new beast is the reason you guys love RBs. the only problem is you guys are always trying to get him after his career year. Who's next yrs RB1 gonna be???? I'll take the elite WR for a 8-10 yrs in a PPR dynasty league over a RB. I understand value and supply and demand. but its still fantasy football and you still have to score the most points each week. a free 100 pts for an elite WR in a PPR is better than a free 30 from Peterson. especially now that RBs aren't scorinf TDs like emmitt,faulk & priest and others did. now your lucky to get 10... JUST LIKE A WR only you don't get the ppr pts

You bring up a very good point about WR's that I will indeed succomb to. Generally in PPR, stud WR's provide a dynasty team with a lot of stability from year to year that RB's do not. HOWEVER, with that said thats exactly why top end RB's that WILL PRODUCE AT A HIGH LEVEL from year to year throughout the entirety of their careers are more valuable. Im not saying Beanie Wells or Moreno are just as valuable as Calvin Johnson, or even more valuable than Sidney Rice....there is a threshold in which mid tier RB's are way less valuable than mid tier WR's....however, thats what makes the upper tier RB's so valuable because the drop off from the top tier to the mid tier is so steep, and uncertain...unlike the drop-off from the top tier of WR's to the mid tier.

Every point that you bring up that favors WR's more as a whole is every more reason to value top end RB's just throwing that out there. It doesnt matter how productive, or durable, or long lasting WR's are.... because the only thing that matters in terms of comparing VALUE is that there are LESS RB's with those highly valued qualities than WR's. Since there are MORE WR's that are more productive, more durable, and longer lasting and less RB's that more productive, more durable, and longer lasting...its a big advantage to have an RB that DOES have those qualities because there are plenty of WR's that do.

[Team Canada]

lets put it this way. in my dynasty league 9 RBs, a QB and a WR was selected in the 1st round. the QB was Drew Brees and the WR was Calvin Johnson. Now tell me if WRs are worth more then how come 10 RBs were drafted in the 1st round?

[MARKinMI]

lets put it this way. in my dynasty league 9 RBs, a QB and a WR was selected in the 1st round. the QB was Drew Brees and the WR was Calvin Johnson. Now tell me if WRs are worth more then how come 10 RBs were drafted in the 1st round?

No offense Canada, and if I'm mistaken I'll apologize ahead of time but isn't the league your talking about the one that has various new member to this site asking questions about lopsided trades and other crazy questions. Again I'm not trying to be offensive but this sounds like a startup league with lots of people who are new to dynasty football. (im assuming this by the questions and SOME of the comments I read from your league mates) They sounded like rookie questions. I'd expect the draft to go about the same as a redraft would. Again not trying to be demeaning, and we all started somewhere. its just that a lot of us have been doing this format for 5-10+ yrs and you pick up on stuff that you wouldn't otherwise.

[BradyT]

lets put it this way. in my dynasty league 9 RBs, a QB and a WR was selected in the 1st round. the QB was Drew Brees and the WR was Calvin Johnson. Now tell me if WRs are worth more then how come 10 RBs were drafted in the 1st round?

Hey.. would you mind posting the first 2 or 3 rounds of this draft in here? I´d like to see that. Thanks!

[Team Canada]

lets put it this way. in my dynasty league 9 RBs, a QB and a WR was selected in the 1st round. the QB was Drew Brees and the WR was Calvin Johnson. Now tell me if WRs are worth more then how come 10 RBs were drafted in the 1st round?

Hey.. would you mind posting the first 2 or 3 rounds of this draft in here? I´d like to see that. Thanks!

yea sure but ur gonna be surprised at the places where ppl were drafted.
ROUND 1
1 -Chargers: Arian Foster
2 -Jets: Adrian Peterson
3 -Dolphins: Chris Johnson
4 -Cowboys: Ray Rice
5 -Texans: Jamaal Charles
6 -Saints: Drew Brees
7 -Redskins: Rashard Mendenhall
8 -Steelers: LeSean McCoy
9 -Cowboys: Calvin Johnson
10 -Vikings: Frank Gore
11 -Saints: Javid Best
12 -Bears: Maurice Jones-Drew
ROUND 2
1- Bears: Michael Vick
2- Packers: Aaron Rodgers
3- Vikings: Phillip Rivers
4- Cowboys: Andre Johnson
5- Steelers: Darren McFadden
6- Redskins: Michael Turner
7- Saints: Roddy White
8- Texans: Peyton Manning
9- Patriots: Greg Jennings
10- Jets: DeSean Jackson
11- Dolphins: Tom Brady
12- Chargers: Hakeem Nicks
ROUND 3
1- Dolphins:Vincent Jackson
2- Patriots: Matt Forte
3- Jets: Steven Jackson
4- Steelers: Miles Austin
5- Packers: Lagarrette Blount
6- Packers: Dwayne Bowe
7- Redskins: Matt Ryan
8- Steelers: Larry Fitzgerald
9- Patriots: Mike Wallace
10- Vikings: Reggie Wayne
11- Texans: Dallas Clark
12- Bears: Dez Bryant

[Team Canada]

lets put it this way. in my dynasty league 9 RBs, a QB and a WR was selected in the 1st round. the QB was Drew Brees and the WR was Calvin Johnson. Now tell me if WRs are worth more then how come 10 RBs were drafted in the 1st round?

No offense Canada, and if I'm mistaken I'll apologize ahead of time but isn't the league your talking about the one that has various new member to this site asking questions about lopsided trades and other crazy questions. Again I'm not trying to be offensive but this sounds like a startup league with lots of people who are new to dynasty football. (im assuming this by the questions and SOME of the comments I read from your league mates) They sounded like rookie questions. I'd expect the draft to go about the same as a redraft would. Again not trying to be demeaning, and we all started somewhere. its just that a lot of us have been doing this format for 5-10+ yrs and you pick up on stuff that you wouldn't otherwise.

yea thats the league. u dont think im one of those ppl who asks rookie questions?

[BradyT]

lets put it this way. in my dynasty league 9 RBs, a QB and a WR was selected in the 1st round. the QB was Drew Brees and the WR was Calvin Johnson. Now tell me if WRs are worth more then how come 10 RBs were drafted in the 1st round?

Hey.. would you mind posting the first 2 or 3 rounds of this draft in here? I´d like to see that. Thanks!

yea sure but ur gonna be surprised at the places where ppl were drafted.
ROUND 1
1 -Chargers: Arian Foster
2 -Jets: Adrian Peterson
3 -Dolphins: Chris Johnson
4 -Cowboys: Ray Rice
5 -Texans: Jamaal Charles
6 -Saints: Drew Brees
7 -Redskins: Rashard Mendenhall
8 -Steelers: LeSean McCoy
9 -Cowboys: Calvin Johnson
10 -Vikings: Frank Gore
11 -Saints: Javid Best
12 -Bears: Maurice Jones-Drew
ROUND 2
1- Bears: Michael Vick
2- Packers: Aaron Rodgers
3- Vikings: Phillip Rivers
4- Cowboys: Andre Johnson
5- Steelers: Darren McFadden
6- Redskins: Michael Turner
7- Saints: Roddy White
8- Texans: Peyton Manning
9- Patriots: Greg Jennings
10- Jets: DeSean Jackson
11- Dolphins: Tom Brady
12- Chargers: Hakeem Nicks
ROUND 3
1- Dolphins:Vincent Jackson
2- Patriots: Matt Forte
3- Jets: Steven Jackson
4- Steelers: Miles Austin
5- Packers: Lagarrette Blount
6- Packers: Dwayne Bowe
7- Redskins: Matt Ryan
8- Steelers: Larry Fitzgerald
9- Patriots: Mike Wallace
10- Vikings: Reggie Wayne
11- Texans: Dallas Clark
12- Bears: Dez Bryant

Wow... thats really late. There are quiet a few picks that I certainly would not have made though they still seem explainable.... but Fitzgerald going near the end of rd 3(!) seems off...

[MARKinMI]

lets put it this way. in my dynasty league 9 RBs, a QB and a WR was selected in the 1st round. the QB was Drew Brees and the WR was Calvin Johnson. Now tell me if WRs are worth more then how come 10 RBs were drafted in the 1st round?

No offense Canada, and if I'm mistaken I'll apologize ahead of time but isn't the league your talking about the one that has various new member to this site asking questions about lopsided trades and other crazy questions. Again I'm not trying to be offensive but this sounds like a startup league with lots of people who are new to dynasty football. (im assuming this by the questions and SOME of the comments I read from your league mates) They sounded like rookie questions. I'd expect the draft to go about the same as a redraft would. Again not trying to be demeaning, and we all started somewhere. its just that a lot of us have been doing this format for 5-10+ yrs and you pick up on stuff that you wouldn't otherwise.

yea thats the league. u dont think im one of those ppl who asks rookie questions?

LOL... I'm glad you didn't take my comment wrong. I honestly don't remember who posted what I just remember a few crazy draft/ trade question!

[Mangelo]

Tons of questionable picks in that draft. Hakeem Nicks fell to the 24th player selected?