Ronnie Jones

[Ice]

Regarding Redraft VS Dynasty Mindset:

In all honesty, coming to conclusions on players regardless of age in either format is precisely what we do in fantasy football. As an example, I own Sam Darnold in a BML redraft but not in dynasty. Darnold , this week, will become the youngest QB in NFL history to start the season. I own him because he can play and I wanted depth in a 14 team league.

Jones is a player I never thought could play on my fantasy teams due to his skill set concerns; Mainly in the passing game, my concern with him running left, and his burst through the hole due to decision process time.

I don't blame anyone who drafted Jones for trying defend him or holding that asset hoping he develops even though I thought he would bust before he ever stepped on the field.

His doubters or defenders will ultimately be proven wrong.

I will say his doubters have the upper hand easily today. He looks terrible and age is a lousy excuse.

[Gtdano_14]

A dynasty vs a redraft mentality. It seems some are confused as to where they are. The coming to conclusions on 21 year old kids seems misplaced.

It drives me absolutely crazy. Go play redraft if that is your angle. In dynasty formats, simply put, patience, and a little dash of understanding is required. To say that Rojo is a bust and be anywhere near confident as some here sound is nothing other than over simplified and premature labeling. Sure, some here are biased and hope he does well. I myself am not at all impressed with what I have read and have seen and yes, he absolutely could be a bust. BUT..... There is context to an extent that must be taken into consideration. I can't help but wonder why that thought process eludes people so often on a dynasty forum.

No confusion here, I simply wanted to correct your gross overstatement of his "receiving chops." Totally understand the patience part which is why I said the owners have to wait, not sell at a discount , not drop... wait.

What drives me crazy is when people skew the facts to create a better (or worse) outlook on a player. That may lead impressionable members who read it to make a bad decision based on the info they see from a frequent user on the forum. You can't be serious when you say he impressed you with his "receiving chops" so far this preseason (2 drops, 1 catch).

[Space Cowboy]

A dynasty vs a redraft mentality. It seems some are confused as to where they are. The coming to conclusions on 21 year old kids seems misplaced.

It drives me absolutely crazy. Go play redraft if that is your angle. In dynasty formats, simply put, patience, and a little dash of understanding is required. To say that Rojo is a bust and be anywhere near confident as some here sound is nothing other than over simplified and premature labeling. Sure, some here are biased and hope he does well. I myself am not at all impressed with what I have read and have seen and yes, he absolutely could be a bust. BUT..... There is context to an extent that must be taken into consideration. I can't help but wonder why that thought process eludes people so often on a dynasty forum.

RBs don't really develop. You either come in ready or you sink. When's the last time a highly touted rookie RB had a disaster of a start and then became fantasy relevant? It doesn't really happen.

[Servo]

What we've seen from Jones, Penny, Guice (injury), Michel and to an extent Kerryon has really tempered expectations. There's an influx of highly drafted RBs that really have fantasy owners tossing a little bit.

All I know is that I'd feel a hell of a lot better owning someone like Penny today versus Jones (aka similar situations). There is plenty of season for things to shake out. Kareem Hunt explodes out of the gate Week 1 and Kamara took a couple weeks to get going (I guess AP caused that?) so I imagine we'll see one of these rookie RBs not named Saquon do it too.

[Jfever]

Ice,

Kudos to you for your research and the confidence that you have in your scouting ability. Contrary to some of your concerns, Rojo did quite well at USC. He was one of the most successful running backs in the NCAA over the past two seasons vs high level competition on a very big stage as a very young kid. I for one give some credence to his resume and feel as though a touch of patience is warranted.

"In all honesty, coming to conclusions on players regardless of age in either format is precisely what we do in fantasy football. As an example, I own Sam Darnold in a BML redraft but not in dynasty. Darnold , this week, will become the youngest QB in NFL history to start the season. I own him because he can play and I wanted depth in a 14 team league."

I think we can both agree that it is at times dangerous to dig ones heals in too deep or too early. It is also dangerous to be too late to the party with ones conclusions. It just seems to me that when talking about a kid whom just one month ago turned 21 whom was drafted to an offense with a potential for a role, yet with a poor offensive run blocking line resulted in some very poor stat lines. Do you think perhaps some may take too much too early from small sample sizes? I also do very much think Rb's can learn some neuances of the NFL game. Timing, play book to an extent, blitz pick up, blocking responsibilites, routes, etc are often times things that young rb often have to adjust to. Not sure how one can minimize or ignore those factors.

Just to be clear, I'm playing a bit of devils advocate here, It isn't as if I am heavily invested. On the contrary. I own very few shares. l own him in 16% of my leagues.

[ericanadian]

A dynasty vs a redraft mentality. It seems some are confused as to where they are. The coming to conclusions on 21 year old kids seems misplaced.

It drives me absolutely crazy. Go play redraft if that is your angle. In dynasty formats, simply put, patience, and a little dash of understanding is required. To say that Rojo is a bust and be anywhere near confident as some here sound is nothing other than over simplified and premature labeling. Sure, some here are biased and hope he does well. I myself am not at all impressed with what I have read and have seen and yes, he absolutely could be a bust. BUT..... There is context to an extent that must be taken into consideration. I can't help but wonder why that thought process eludes people so often on a dynasty forum.

RBs don't really develop. You either come in ready or you sink. When's the last time a highly touted rookie RB had a disaster of a start and then became fantasy relevant? It doesn't really happen.

Thomas Jones & Devonta Freeman are two of the first guys that come to mind.

[Ice]

A couple of points: Never claimed Jones wasn't effective in college. Obviously he was. It is also obvious Tampa's staff seemed to like the player. In a draft it only takes one team to like a player. It is also true that 4 teams liked other RB's better. We do not know what Detroit thought since they drafted a RB only 5 picks later.

Where scouts and team's differ on players on what their specific skill sets are. There are countless players that are great in college but don't even get drafted. Yes Jones was effective in college but the game is very different. Any scout would tell you that besides competition level, the hash mark distance is probably the biggest factor given defense of field.

Jones does have a chance to be an effective NFL player but I do not believe he will ever be more than a potential effective 2 down back. That said, when it comes to college one question that hasn't been asked is what impact did Sam Darnold play into that success. My research told me it was significant. Anyone who thinks Darnold wasn't the key player game planned against should go back and study him in context to defense alignment.

I agree with patience being warranted for any young player but as far as fantasy value I stand behind my valuation.

While a player like E. Smith who never transferred the ball away from contact, he never showed a propensity to constantly cut to his right when the played called going left. Further, his burst was equal either direction which I do not see with Jones.

My take prior to Preseason and today was Jones was a major reach high in the first round and was a reach in the first round of fantasy. My take is fantasy owners rely heavily on limited information. In PPr leagues drafting players that have obvious limitations to being a 3 down back do not deserve high picks. It doesn't always matter where an NFL team drafts a player given they draft need based on their personnel. This is where fantasy is quite different.

It is true that Jones could learn pass protection and become a good receiver some day but he is not NFL ready.

One of the best comments I read was short by Space Cowboy. It implied RB's come into this league ready to run. That is what they know. It is rare to see a player struggle out of the gate and bounce back. While some good backs take time, it is usually because the player in front of them is better. Backs do have to develop in other areas but when it comes to running they already must know how to see and get through a lane for positive yardage. In fairness to Jones a lot of his runs in preseason were bottled up before he got started but back to hash marks, the holes are way smaller at this level.

Tip of the day when scouting college RB's. focus on inside runs with 8 in the box.

[Jfever]

Nice post Ice. I appreciate your points. Very well said.

As a minor share holder in Jones. I'm a tad concerned but I will simply be patient. In the one league I own him in, I also own P.Barber. So, there is that. And if memory serves, that was one reason I chose Jones over Sony. That and it was only to avoid taking Sony as I hate the way that NE and Belichick handles running backs. I've swung and missed before so I won't be shocked if this situation plays out one way or the other.

[Dynasty DeLorean]

Melvin Gordon was dreadful when he first entered the league. Not saying he’s much better now but there probably has been some improvement.

[Ice]

Nice post Ice. I appreciate your points. Very well said.

As a minor share holder in Jones. I'm a tad concerned but I will simply be patient. In the one league I own him in, I also own P.Barber. So, there is that. And if memory serves, that was one reason I chose Jones over Sony. That and it was only to avoid taking Sony as I hate the way that NE and Belichick handles running backs. I've swung and missed before so I won't be shocked if this situation plays out one way or the other.

Thanks,

While I had Michel rated much higher, I too hate Belichick's use of RB's to date. Ultimately, I believe Belichick will put the best players on the field if he ever truly finds one better in all skill sets. It has happened before but it does not seem the norm for him.

We all swing and miss from time to time. As someone stated what we can't evaluate on the sidelines is real desire and acumen of players being drafted.

Take solace in the fact; We are not the only ones that miss, Scouts, GM's, and NFL teams miss every single year on some players. Elway as an example was the one of the greatest QB's ever but as a GM he is proving to be really lousy at drafting QB's so now trying the FA route.

[Jfever]

True Ice. Very true. I had Sony a touch above Rojo as well. I just despise Belichick's approach and I think it's been since L.Maroney that we've seen some semblance of a 3 down rb. Argh. Part of me doesn't see that changing. I do own Sony in 2 leagues... fingers crossed.

DD. Another Good example with M.Gordon. I think it's safe to say he is "much better now"... just my opinion of course as he seemingly has top 10 ish overall dynasty value in the leagues I've inquired about attaining him. I know folks discuss his "efficiency" or lack there of. But, watching him play - I see a grinder and a good all around 3 down rb with a nose for the end-zone.

I think it is a common misconception that all rb enter the league and are NFL / Pro ready because if they know how to run it is just about hitting a hole and running. They just aren't and it just isn't quite that simple. We are talking about humans after all.

[maxhyde]

I think it happens more than people think that rookies are sometimes a little overwhelmed by the jump up to the NFL. I mean you stop being clearly one of the top athletes on the field at that point and are just competing with guys on your level. Most of these kids we discuss have NEVER been there.
I think it is happening less but only because no one is patient anymore, GM's, Owners, coaches or fans. Wasn't uncommon for rookie QB's to sit...now it is shocking when they aren't handed the ball to start. Now we get annoyed when a 1st or 2nd round pick isn't instantly top 10 at his position.
I am fine with all the trashing of Jones if it means I can get a discount because I will pay late 1sts/early 2nds all day for him

[Space Cowboy]

A dynasty vs a redraft mentality. It seems some are confused as to where they are. The coming to conclusions on 21 year old kids seems misplaced.

It drives me absolutely crazy. Go play redraft if that is your angle. In dynasty formats, simply put, patience, and a little dash of understanding is required. To say that Rojo is a bust and be anywhere near confident as some here sound is nothing other than over simplified and premature labeling. Sure, some here are biased and hope he does well. I myself am not at all impressed with what I have read and have seen and yes, he absolutely could be a bust. BUT..... There is context to an extent that must be taken into consideration. I can't help but wonder why that thought process eludes people so often on a dynasty forum.

RBs don't really develop. You either come in ready or you sink. When's the last time a highly touted rookie RB had a disaster of a start and then became fantasy relevant? It doesn't really happen.

Thomas Jones & Devonta Freeman are two of the first guys that come to mind.

Jones fair point. Collins too. Freeman burst onto the scene once he actually got a workload. Point remains though, it is extremely rare.

[Ice]

True Ice. Very true. I had Sony a touch above Rojo as well. I just despise Belichick's approach and I think it's been since L.Maroney that we've seen some semblance of a 3 down rb. Argh. Part of me doesn't see that changing. I do own Sony in 2 leagues... fingers crossed.

DD. Another Good example with M.Gordon. I think it's safe to say he is "much better now"... just my opinion of course as he seemingly has top 10 ish overall dynasty value in the leagues I've inquired about attaining him. I know folks discuss his "efficiency" or lack there of. But, watching him play - I see a grinder and a good all around 3 down rb with a nose for the end-zone.

I think it is a common misconception that all rb enter the league and are NFL / Pro ready because if they know how to run it is just about hitting a hole and running. They just aren't and it just isn't quite that simple. We are talking about humans after all.

What is a bit ironic to me is the M. Gordon example: As I side note, I actually think Peyton Barber may fit his mold more than Jones. Barber looks to be a grinder that had the benefit of time to develop overall. Gordon had time to develop his receiving as Woodhead had 81 receptions in 2015.

[Lotto4Life]

This smells a lot like Tre Mason.