So you're telling me there's a chance! Chris Carson Edition ***POLL***

[FantasyFreak]

I said this about Carson on page 1:

He's a career backup at best. The Seahawks drafted a RB in the 1st round for a reason. The only way Carson takes over is with injuries, and even then, he'll only have value for a short duration.

Looks like Carson will have the RB1 duties going into week 1 because of the injury. He may also end up as the lead back for the season because of it (practice with the 1s = more success) but I'd still put all my eggs in the Penny basket. If I owned Carson, I'd be trading him away no matter what type of team I had. If I needed depth, trade Carson away and try to get someone cheap later on.

I think if you believe Carson is only a career backup "At Best" I'm assuming you obviously didn't watch his tape.
It also looks like you were completely out of the loop,

"Looks like Carson will have the RB1 duties going into week 1 because of the injury."

Carson had been leading up to that point. Carroll said it himself, and multiple team writers agreed, pointing out Carson was not only the top running back, but the best offensive skill player on the team this year. I get that Penny will have a ton of chances to prove himself as a 1st round pick, but the takes you are making simply don't line up with reality. Looking like the donkey https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yX_1gJ_51M .

He's right. Penny and Carson split time, even in the opener with the 1's. Carroll specifically stated nobody was the starter yet, the had not made any decisions. Carson now may get more touches because of the injury, so his comment is right. This injury directly affects Carsons snap share, not sure how you can argue Penny would not have eaten into that. Personally, I would say beat writers can write what they want, and I'm sure Carson has looked good, but so has Penny by all accounts. I do believe Carson is a backup, but not at best. He might get some time starting, or in a committee, but I don't see him being a long term play in a FF context. I think Penny is the most talented back on that roster and it's not close, when extended playing time gets distributed, and we get into the season, I believe Penny's skill set will show itself, especially in the passing game. Carson looks to be a good sell high to me, if you can get a 2nd or even a 2nd plus a prospect for him, I think that could be his peak value.

[_yeti]

Super weird that the guys that think Carson has no value and no future are now declaring him at peak value. Super weird the same people who don't own him and were sure he would lose the spot he has earned think that others who own him should bail on him now. It's almost like it is the continuation of everything you have said about him and not new in regards to this injury news at all. "I think this guy isn't worth much so it will always be less than this." Ok, thanks guys carry on.

I think the donkey video was spot on as far as OLDMAN's points on denying what has been said and transpired from OTAs and camp leading up to this. I can't believe I am not familiar with that bit. I love it. Here, in case clicking a link was too much for people to watch I fixed it

[_yeti]

People are STILL creating the narrative they want to believe as opposed to what is happening.

I see Carson running getting downhill fast and decisively, running hard into contact, falling forward and fighting for extra yards, plunging up the middle, AND making people miss in space.


I see Penny looking fast and dynamic in space, keeping defenders off him when possible, dancing, folding at contact.


Here is the key: if there were no names on jerseys, no draft capital, and no one had ever seen either of them -- if you saw those two videos alone, EVERYONE would have Carson above Penny. People just want to confirm the moves they have already made. And the kicker is that the preseason reps confirm what has been the story all offseason. People believe what they want to believe.

People would be LOVING Carson's size/speed/physicality combo if they hadn't already made up their mind on him due to factors that were never in his control.

P.S. people can say Penny got hit in the backfield, but look what he does at contact. Tries to evade or goes down, cuts on first one and stops feet for jump cut on second time it happens. Carson tries to make people miss and also drives at contact which is what Carroll or anyone wants on runs between the tackles. This is only serving to confirm to me my position throughout his thread. This is preseason action of how I described the difference between the two and the REASON the team has had Carson first. People act like everything is some arbitrary coaching decision or motivational tactic and not a reflection of how the two have performed and of their own respective skill sets.

[FantasyFreak]

People are STILL creating the narrative they want to believe as opposed to what is happening.

I see Carson running getting downhill fast and decisively, running hard into contact, falling forward and fighting for extra yards, plunging up the middle, AND making people miss in space.


I see Penny looking fast and dynamic in space, keeping defenders off him when possible, dancing, folding at contact.


Here is the key: if there were no names on jerseys, no draft capital, and no one had ever seen either of them -- if you saw those two videos alone, EVERYONE would have Carson above Penny. People just want to confirm the moves they have already made. And the kicker is that the preseason reps confirm what has been the story all offseason. People believe what they want to believe.

People would be LOVING Carson's size/speed/physicality combo if they hadn't already made up their mind on him due to factors that were never in his control.

P.S. people can say Penny got hit in the backfield, but look what he does at contact. Tries to evade or goes down, cuts on first one and stops feet for jump cut on second time it happens. Carson tries to make people miss and also drives at contact which is what Carroll or anyone wants on runs between the tackles. This is only serving to confirm to me my position throughout his thread. This is preseason action of how I described the difference between the two and the REASON the team has had Carson first. People act like everything is some arbitrary coaching decision or motivational tactic and not a reflection of how the two have performed and of their own respective skill sets.

I thought Carson looked good. The 12 yard run was all on the OL, but the one he had where he made a guy miss and was able to get the first down was a nice run. There were a few runs Penny had that Carson isn't making, though, in terms of gettinng to the edge. Penny had nowhere to go on two of the runs he got hit in the backfield, and the other one was at the end of the half, so he SHOULDN'T be fighting for yards. As a matter of fact, they shouldn't have run the ball at all. I think the most important thing to observe is that Penny and Carson were alternating with the ones, and that Penny was out there all the time on third down passing situations. It seems they were using a 1/2 punch type, thing, and I expected that, at least for now. The Ingram/Kamara situation would be the ideal comp, but the Hawks moved the ball well with the first team using both of them, and the Seahawks don't care about FF, so I'm going to say it will be a committee to start the year, but I think Penny get the bulk of the passing down work, I have my doubts Prosise is going to be relevant.

[ArrylT]

I said this about Carson on page 1:

He's a career backup at best. The Seahawks drafted a RB in the 1st round for a reason. The only way Carson takes over is with injuries, and even then, he'll only have value for a short duration.

Looks like Carson will have the RB1 duties going into week 1 because of the injury. He may also end up as the lead back for the season because of it (practice with the 1s = more success) but I'd still put all my eggs in the Penny basket. If I owned Carson, I'd be trading him away no matter what type of team I had. If I needed depth, trade Carson away and try to get someone cheap later on.

Just traded McKinnon and a couple of projected late 2nds for him after the news "broke".

Wow thats the strongest buy on Carson I've seen yet - kudos on being a believer.

[ArrylT]

Previously the biggest buy in on Carson I had seen was Marshawn Lynch and a 3rd for Carson.

[_yeti]

I thought Carson looked good. The 12 yard run was all on the OL, but the one he had where he made a guy miss and was able to get the first down was a nice run. There were a few runs Penny had that Carson isn't making, though, in terms of gettinng to the edge. Penny had nowhere to go on two of the runs he got hit in the backfield, and the other one was at the end of the half, so he SHOULDN'T be fighting for yards. As a matter of fact, they shouldn't have run the ball at all. I think the most important thing to observe is that Penny and Carson were alternating with the ones, and that Penny was out there all the time on third down passing situations. It seems they were using a 1/2 punch type, thing, and I expected that, at least for now. The Ingram/Kamara situation would be the ideal comp, but the Hawks moved the ball well with the first team using both of them, and the Seahawks don't care about FF, so I'm going to say it will be a committee to start the year, but I think Penny get the bulk of the passing down work, I have my doubts Prosise is going to be relevant.

I am talking about their run styles not necessarily saying the 12 yard run is the most important or anything. Play time is not distributed by outcomes, it's what you do that gives you the best chance to get the outcomes. Yes, the 12 yard gain had a huge hole, I am saying he is decisively getting downhill to it and then running through contact. Penny isn't letting off the gas or trying not to play physical bc it is preseason, no way. He is in his first NFL action, he has been running BEHIND Carson, not alternating. He is out there with something to prove. And I am not saying they should be stupid, stand up and refuse to ever go down fighting for yards and take unneccessary hits. I am talking about ability to run through contact and by going hard in football you actually help protect yourself from injury (better to be the hammer than the nail). To me, I see Penny as a guy who wants to dance, wants to break it outside, and when the contact comes he goes down.

Also, shouldn't have run at all because of time? Preseason means nothing if not to evaluate players. Actual score is a major afterthought as it is more of a scrimmage. I said earlier this offseason I see Penny being in passing situations, being in a committee, being exciting in space as he was. To me, if you get that role and the other guy gets more carries and early down carries than that is a committee and the early down back leads the committee.

The runs were confirmation to me of what I said about Penny's college tape. He isn't a physical runner. Yes, he was hit in the backfield and I don't expect him to break out of that or anything. I was just saying when he was hit in the backfield what did he do, second one especially he stopped his feet and tried to dance. When I was younger I was a huge fan of Barry Sanders and all runners like that and it took many years for me to come around to valuing running backs who get north-south and pick up positive yardage. Look at Carson's first run where he is hit at the line of scrimmage and how it still ends up a 4 yard gain. Teams are going to ride that because what it does is make it 2nd and 6 as opposed to Penny getting hit at the line and dropping and having a 2nd and 10 or 2nd and 9. Fact is, Carson is a huge dude and he is just better suited between the tackles than Penny. Also, he knows they drafted a 1st rounder, that Carroll has been on him to play physical, I don't see Penny outplaying him in that role. He knows he is there to bang, so he is bringing it.

The reason DJ, Zeke, Leveon, etc. are on the field on early downs while still being home run hitters and passing down backs, is that they are the best back on the team for those early downs. I see Carson as much bigger and more physical and better in that role than Penny. If there was a guy that was better than Zeke for early downs, they would roll him out but the fact is those backs don't come off the field because they offer so much more than anyone else on the roster, you are giving up too much not having the ball in their hands. Oppositely, I think that giving Carson the ball up the middle and then rotating in Penny gives the Seahawks a better look than running Penny all three, where he takes more hits, gains less up the middle, has less in the tank for those passing situations he ends up in. I think they want a committee.

Also, as Carroll has said, Carson can also catch so it doesn't only telegraph run. For that reason also he stays in front of Penny. It has nothing to do with draft capital. They want wins, they want to get back to how they were, that isn't going to take a backseat to just trying to play out that the draft capital was spent right.

[Shoreline Steamers]

Also, as Carroll has said, Carson can also catch so it doesn't only telegraph run. For that reason also he stays in front of Penny. It has nothing to do with draft capital. They want wins, they want to get back to how they were, that isn't going to take a backseat to just trying to play out that the draft capital was spent right.

I've been on this RBBC train during the offseason. And surprisingly there are those that have argued that if Carroll doesn't play Penny over Carson then this will be his last season coaching the Seahawks because Schneider will fire him for not properly using the shiny new toy properly. And wasting draft capital.

Agree completely Yeti. Carroll and the rest of the team want to win. He will play the players that give him the best chance to do so. It's how coaches stay employed. He lost the locker room to some extent last season when he played Fat Eddie and "I'm running up your backside" Rawls ahead of Carson, even though Carson was the the best RB in camp in 2017 and the players knew it.

[Dynasty DeLorean]

The only "good" run Carson had was the last one, where he actually made some defenders miss. We saw Penny do the same thing though, the only difference being Penny has the speed to get to the edge whereas Carson has to turn it back inside and get tackled. I'm not trying to nitpick that's just the reality of the situation. He didn't really do anything above average on the other 3, which is fine... no rb makes spectacular plays on every run. But let's not fawn over them either. Let's just call it like it is, Carson is a solid RB. I still don't understand the need to try and prop this guy up into something he's not.

[_yeti]

The only "good" run Carson had was the last one, where he actually made some defenders miss. We saw Penny do the same thing though, the only difference being Penny has the speed to get to the edge whereas Carson has to turn it back inside and get tackled. I'm not trying to nitpick that's just the reality of the situation. He didn't really do anything above average on the other 3, which is fine... no rb makes spectacular plays on every run. But let's not fawn over them either. Let's just call it like it is, Carson is a solid RB. I still don't understand the need to try and prop this guy up into something he's not.

I think that is born out of the need for everything to be flashy to have value. No one anywhere in here says he's spectacular. Having value, leading the committee has it's own value. Penny did not look spectacular. I said he looks to have more utility for what they are trying to do and I think Penny was a mistake to draft when they already had him.

Funny, this was what ArrylT was talking about earlier, I wrote this in reply to his post on Carson vs. Jones.

Where is yeti when you need him?

On his behalf I'll say take Carson.

It's funny though, I don't want to come off as saying Carson is more than what he is. I just like finding someone I think is undervalued and then sticking to my guns.

[Dynasty DeLorean]

The only "good" run Carson had was the last one, where he actually made some defenders miss. We saw Penny do the same thing though, the only difference being Penny has the speed to get to the edge whereas Carson has to turn it back inside and get tackled. I'm not trying to nitpick that's just the reality of the situation. He didn't really do anything above average on the other 3, which is fine... no rb makes spectacular plays on every run. But let's not fawn over them either. Let's just call it like it is, Carson is a solid RB. I still don't understand the need to try and prop this guy up into something he's not.

I think that is born out of the need for everything to be flashy to have value. No one anywhere in here says he's spectacular. Having value, leading the committee has it's own value. Penny did not look spectacular. I said he looks to have more utility for what they are trying to do and I think Penny was a mistake to draft when they already had him.

Never said or gave any indication that I think Carson doesn't have value or that something needs to be flashy to have value. And hold the phone, a small school rookie didn't look spectacular in his first preseason game behind poor blocking? Stop the presses!!!

[ap28.allday]

Appearing on NFL Network, Ian Rapoport referred to Chris Carson as the Seahawks' "bellcow" back.

"He's probably going to be their starter," RapSheet reiterated. Rapoport also stated there is some concern Rashaad Penny's hand surgery could cost him 1-2 regular season games. It will certainly limit Penny's ability to practice and improve in pass protection, where he struggled at San Diego State and in Seattle's preseason opener. Carson is shaping up as a viable mid-round RB3/flex.

[FantasyFreak]

Appearing on NFL Network, Ian Rapoport referred to Chris Carson as the Seahawks' "bellcow" back.

"He's probably going to be their starter," RapSheet reiterated. Rapoport also stated there is some concern Rashaad Penny's hand surgery could cost him 1-2 regular season games. It will certainly limit Penny's ability to practice and improve in pass protection, where he struggled at San Diego State and in Seattle's preseason opener. Carson is shaping up as a viable mid-round RB3/flex.

Ian Rappaport is great for breaking trades, news of suspensions etc., but he doesn't have a clue how the Hawks will use their backs. Rappaport saying this doesn't make it so. From everything I have heard from the Hawks, it's 3-4 weeks, and he is expected to be ready week 1. They might ease Penny in after missing this time, but there is little credibility to think Carson will be a "bell cow" while Penny is on the active roster.

[ap28.allday]

Disagreeing with his opinion doesn't make it false. He is certainly educated and in the know on the situation. The carson hype train is in full effect! Choo Choo!!

[FantasyFreak]

Ian Rappaport is great for breaking trades, news of suspensions etc., but he doesn't have a clue how the Hawks will use their backs. Rappaport saying this doesn't make it so. From everything I have heard from the Hawks, it's 3-4 weeks, and he is expected to be ready week 1. They might ease Penny in after missing this time, but there is little credibility to think Carson will be a "bell cow" while Penny is on the active roster.
[/quote]
And you disagreeing with his opinion doesn't make it false. He is certainly educated and in the know on the situation. The carson hype train is in full effect! Choo Choo!!
[/quote]

No he isn't. Educated, in the know? You think Pete Carroll tells Ian Rappaport how they will deploy Carson a month from now? Like I said, if anyone thinks Carson is going to be the "bell cow" with a healthy Penny on the roster, they are borderline delusional.