So you're telling me there's a chance! Chris Carson Edition ***POLL***

[FantasyFreak]

One of the best things about football compared to other sports is it has always had a "next man up" philosophy. A 16 game season is way different a 82 game NBA season or a 160 or whatever baseball is... with their guaranteed contracts. And football has real violence and frequent injuries. Football has ALWAYS been a sport where no ones job is safe, including coaches and front office. It is crazy to me that people can't comprehend that a guy with a ton of physical upside and a year in the system might be outplaying a new draft pick and that draft capital only gets you in the door. You may get a longer leash and more opportunity the more capital spent, but if you are being outplayed the other guy will usually get a shot. I love how everyone here off of small conference college highlights and draft capital all are anointing Penny as being so head and shoulders better than Carson.

Contradictions:
Saying coaches should be fired if they take him in the first and then Carson starts over him, while ppl basing most of their valuation simply on that first round pedigree. It was the very end of the 1st btw. Also love how ppl are acting like Carroll hasn't had major success in Seattle and hasn't unearthed other looked over players before in creating playoff and super bowl teams. Sheesh. People literally just want THEIR THING in fantasy to work out and are building their narrative around it. Now this is getting Carroll canned? FOH lol

No, I agree with your statement, but if Seattle misses the playoffs again (and it plays out as stated earlier), it could very well be the end. He's getting old, and a lot of players he kind of lost from that SB team because he has a college coaching mentality, where guys hear it for 4 years, and then they are gone, but some of these guys were around longer, and they tired of it. I think Carroll will be gone if they miss the playoffs, and if he can't maximize the RB position (be it Penny, Carson, or Penny AND Carson), I think this will be one of the reasons. That's why your next man up thing makes sense. I just happen to think Penny is the better player (not just because of draft capital, but that is one reasons he was drafted in the first, is that he is talented IMO)

[Phaded]

Also just going to point out that even Alvin Kamara was the #3 back on his own team until a few weeks into year, then you could not justify keeping him off the field.

They did not spend a 1st round pick on Penny to let him sit behind Carson all year, but rookies still need to learn the system and earn their spot - especially with Pete Carroll.

[FantasyFreak]

Also just going to point out that even Alvin Kamara was the #3 back on his own team until a few weeks into year, then you could not justify keeping him off the field.

They did not spend a 1st round pick on Penny to let him sit behind Carson all year, but rookies still need to learn the system and earn their spot - especially with Pete Carroll.

Funny, I was thinking of Kamara while I typed my last comment, but it was getting kind of long as it was, so I left it out. I completely agree, and Carroll has always been one to create competition in camp.

[_yeti]

Seattle shouldn't favor players because of draft position, that's a losing proposition

A losing proposition is spending early picks on players who don't start immediately at a position that hardly requires that much "development time". Why wouldn't Seattle continue to trade down and select a Guice or Royce Freeman later on if there was/is such an infatuation with Carson and his games against Green Bay, San Fran, Tennessee and Indy lol??

The defense lost Richard Sherman, Cliff Avril, Michael Bennett, Sheldon Richardson, and Kam Chancellor, and are in the middle of a contract dispute with Earl Thomas. Should LA continue on its upward trajectory and if San Fran takes a step forward, it's not far-fetched to see Seattle and or fans asking questions....and making potentially, dumba$$ draft selections won't help.

You're looking at it like you're us and not the organization as far as it being just about Carson's game from last year and trading back in regards to Penny. The games are like 1% of the season. They didn't know how Carson would come back from injury, and you are neglecting the fact they had never suited Penny up with NFL players. Why is it impossible that they could have been high on him with the information they had going into the draft but then when on the field next to a healthy Carson with a year in the system they still feel Carson is ahead of him and can offer more. Regardless of that I think Carson always will have more to offer between the tackles.

Another observation on top of that, I like McKinnon as a ppr play this year and tons of ppl say he will fail and point to him not being particularly stout between the tackles as evidence why (I don't think he needs to be to produce stats). Then I say I like Carson to lead carries because he has that over Penny and people can't fathom it. How do both of those opinions exist simultaneously? Do people think Penny is stronger between the tackles than I do or something?

[Phaded]

Another observation on top of that, I like McKinnon as a ppr play this year and tons of ppl say he will fail and point to him not being particularly stout between the tackles as evidence why (I don't think he needs to be to produce stats). Then I say I like Carson to lead carries because he has that over Penny and people can't fathom it. How do both of those opinions exist simultaneously? Do people think Penny is stronger between the tackles than I do or something?

I'm not really sure how these two things relate at all or what you are trying to get at? Also, are they the exact same people or are you just drawing general conclusions? If they aren't the same people specifically, it is literally a completely irrelevant point.

Also - it's not really fair to compare McKinnon and Penny. McKinnon has four years of NFL tape for people to draw any conclusion they wish, where Penny has none.

(for the record: I believe that any strong pass catching back has top 10 PPR potential on a year to year basis and I agree with you on McKinnon).

I do not buy into Carson not because I believe in Penny but because I don't believe in Carson, speaking for myself.

[FantasyFreak]

Seattle shouldn't favor players because of draft position, that's a losing proposition

A losing proposition is spending early picks on players who don't start immediately at a position that hardly requires that much "development time". Why wouldn't Seattle continue to trade down and select a Guice or Royce Freeman later on if there was/is such an infatuation with Carson and his games against Green Bay, San Fran, Tennessee and Indy lol??

The defense lost Richard Sherman, Cliff Avril, Michael Bennett, Sheldon Richardson, and Kam Chancellor, and are in the middle of a contract dispute with Earl Thomas. Should LA continue on its upward trajectory and if San Fran takes a step forward, it's not far-fetched to see Seattle and or fans asking questions....and making potentially, dumba$$ draft selections won't help.

You're looking at it like you're us and not the organization as far as it being just about Carson's game from last year and trading back in regards to Penny. The games are like 1% of the season. They didn't know how Carson would come back from injury, and you are neglecting the fact they had never suited Penny up with NFL players. Why is it impossible that they could have been high on him with the information they had going into the draft but then when on the field next to a healthy Carson with a year in the system they still feel Carson is ahead of him and can offer more. Regardless of that I think Carson always will have more to offer between the tackles.

Another observation on top of that, I like McKinnon as a ppr play this year and tons of ppl say he will fail and point to him not being particularly stout between the tackles as evidence why (I don't think he needs to be to produce stats). Then I say I like Carson to lead carries because he has that over Penny and people can't fathom it. How do both of those opinions exist simultaneously? Do people think Penny is stronger between the tackles than I do or something?

Maybe that and you are higher on Carson between the tackles, and lower on Penny in that area, a little of both. I think with such a small sample size of Carson, it's too early to tell on him as being better than Penny between the tackles, (as you said) who has NO sample size between the tackles in the NFL. I would say that we are just too early in the process to tell. The idea that they didn't know how Carson would come back from a broken leg (which usually isn't ever an issue) doesn't mean they had to spend a first on a RB. From what the Seahawks actually said, they viewed Penny as a 3 down back that could do it all, and they were really high on him, to the point of being willing to take him at 18, if they couldn't find a trade partner to move back.

I agree with you about the McKinnon thing, though. If Carson does show himself to be miles better than Penny, he's going to play, if he can be an early down thumper and Penny struggles, then it will happen. However, I think it's much too early in the process to say unequivocally, that Carson is much better between the tackles than Penny, when Penny hasn't had an opportunity to display himself there on an even playing field. For Rashaad, one of his best attributes is his vision, and finding the seam is necessary if you are to hit it, and I think he is a much more natural RB than Carson in this area. He sees the field well. I need to see more from Carson before I am convinced, as apart from a 4 game span where he played fairly well, he's never really done much, since High School, at least.

[Cult of Dionysus]

Guys, it's a few days of practice. We're talking about practice. We're talking about practice! We ain't talking about the game. When the games begin, and we see them play... Will see them play! They've been running around in shorts. We're not even talking about the game, the actual game, when it matters, we're talking about practice.

Seriously, many coaches like to humble rookies. Carroll is a great motivator. Why hand a guy the starting job when he can make him work for it and earn it. It's called taking the long-view. Grooming him to be a professional, work ethic, chip on his shoulder mentality. Penny should be better and stronger for it. Let's see how things look during the preseason and the first 6 - 8 weeks. Now, it's only... practice.

[_yeti]

Another observation on top of that, I like McKinnon as a ppr play this year and tons of ppl say he will fail and point to him not being particularly stout between the tackles as evidence why (I don't think he needs to be to produce stats). Then I say I like Carson to lead carries because he has that over Penny and people can't fathom it. How do both of those opinions exist simultaneously? Do people think Penny is stronger between the tackles than I do or something?

I'm not really sure how these two things relate at all or what you are trying to get at? Also, are they the exact same people or are you just drawing general conclusions? If they aren't the same people specifically, it is literally a completely irrelevant point.

Also - it's not really fair to compare McKinnon and Penny. McKinnon has four years of NFL tape for people to draw any conclusion they wish, where Penny has none.

(for the record: I believe that any strong pass catching back has top 10 PPR potential on a year to year basis and I agree with you on McKinnon).

I do not buy into Carson not because I believe in Penny but because I don't believe in Carson, speaking for myself.

Saying that people believe McKinnon will struggle bc he has been seen as light between the tackles. I think Penny is light between the tackles. I don't see the same skepticism (or hate) for Penny when he has a guy directly threatening him in that area on his team and the organization running the other person above him. But where the organization is saying "McKinnon is the guy 100%" people are treating him with more skepticism than Penny.

There is more skepticism for a guy who got the biggest FA contract, has shown production with the touches he got at the NFL level, is committed to as the guy for his organization, than there is for a guy who played in a small conference in college, has not played in the league, and currently has a competing back who has been reported through OTAs and camp to have looked better, is bigger, and has had some small sample success in the league already. I think Penny should be treated with more skepticism than McKinnon at this point and I think it is funny that the same doubts people apply to McKinnon very well could be applied to Penny (maybe more deservingly) but he is getting the shiny new toy pass.

[_yeti]

As said before, I would love to own both and think they can carry a Ingram-Kamara 1-2 punch where both are fantasy relevant. It keeps defenses tired, gives different looks, keeps a fresher back in the backfield, and helps both stay healthy. Penny does not have the type of Zeke/Bell/Gurley/DJ upside that he is going to monopolize the backfield.

[Cult of Dionysus]

Correct, he's a guy with 250 point upside in a PPR league, not 350.

[FantasyFreak]

As said before, I would love to own both and think they can carry a Ingram-Kamara 1-2 punch where both are fantasy relevant. It keeps defenses tired, gives different looks, keeps a fresher back in the backfield, and helps both stay healthy. Penny does not have the type of Zeke/Bell/Gurley/DJ upside that he is going to monopolize the backfield.

I would argue Penny has the build to handle more than 8 carries a game. He's 5 11, 220, perfect size for a lead back. Bell didn't have Bell upside coming into the league. He reinvented his body year 2 and then became a different level of player. I don't know how we can say Penny can't be a top back yet. It may be unlikely, but how many people expected Kareem Hunt last year to do what he did? I think Carson definitely gets touches, I'm just more in the camp of him spelling Penny (at least once Penny has fully acclimated to the NFL game) rather than it being a 1-2 punch. There is something to be said about a RB getting into a groove, IMO.

[FantasyFreak]

Correct, he's a guy with 250 point upside in a PPR league, not 350.

That would have been good for RB 8 last year. I'll take that.

[DLF3000]

Also just going to point out that even Alvin Kamara was the #3 back on his own team until a few weeks into year, then you could not justify keeping him off the field.

They did not spend a 1st round pick on Penny to let him sit behind Carson all year, but rookies still need to learn the system and earn their spot - especially with Pete Carroll.

Yep, and even David Johnson took forever to start, and that was accelerated due to injuries ahead of him, as talented as he is.

Even Hunt wasn't slated to start either until Ware's injury - most people forget that. Ware's back, so who knows how that plays out.

Although neither Johnson or Hunt were 1st round picks like Penny. No pressure!

Point is, all sorts of chaos comes with predicting RB backfields, rookies very much included.

[_yeti]

Also just going to point out that even Alvin Kamara was the #3 back on his own team until a few weeks into year, then you could not justify keeping him off the field.

They did not spend a 1st round pick on Penny to let him sit behind Carson all year, but rookies still need to learn the system and earn their spot - especially with Pete Carroll.

Yep, and even David Johnson took forever to start, and that was accelerated due to injuries ahead of him, as talented as he is.

Even Hunt wasn't slated to start either until Ware's injury - most people forget that. Ware's back, so who knows how that plays out.

Although neither Johnson or Hunt were 1st round picks like Penny. No pressure!

Point is, all sorts of chaos comes with predicting RB backfields, rookies very much included.

The point is, like the stock market we are making bets. In my last startup Carson went 100 picks later than Penny, and that was with me jumping ADP by many rounds to grab Carson. Now if I can take a Guice instead of Penny and then my bet on Carson pays off in the form of him leading the backfield I potentially get two starting RBs as opposed to spending the startup capital on Penny. It is chaos but we are TRYING to predict it. Seattle has had one of the most volatile backfields and that has made it one of the most fun to speculate on.

Also, I watched soooo much tape of DJ and Jordan Howard respectively and kept going back and forth on them and ultimately bet wrong but when they were drafted they were the ones I watched again and again, ultimately betting wrong. Not always right and organizations aren't either, but just the amount of time I spent on them with other correct bets gives me confidence in my predictions. My hit rate on WR and TE is much more pedestrian than on RBs. I think the Seattle situation is more than motivation or a rookie just earning their spot. I think Carson is a late bloomer and Seattle realizes they lucked up in landing him.

[Phaded]

I have re-read your first post and to be honest, it's not very detailed nor does it do a good job of selling him. When I watch his tape, I walk away saying "meh".

Is there something more there that you like other than what you mentioned? I am legitimately curious.

Even on top of all this - with that offensive line I have a hard time buying that one RB could be all that productive, let alone two. I would not at all be surprised if Wilson leads them in rushing yards.