To add onto this, Engram was getting roughly the same amount of targets per game even before OBJ got hurt. The narrative that he was only involved because he was the only guy healthy pretty clearly isn't true.jtd1387 wrote: ↑Fri May 18, 2018 4:50 amJust curious, which efficiency numbers are you referring to? IIRC, Shepard had similar criticism, so maybe it's something to do with Eli? Also, I'd kinda expect less than great efficiency with him getting more volunteer then just about any rookie TE in memory.Vcize wrote: ↑Thu May 17, 2018 11:54 am While I agree Gesicki is underrated, I think there is a misnomer in thinking that Engram developed faster or was "ready to contribute" last year. He was forced to contribute last year because everyone else on the team got hurt. He certainly wasn't ready and the oft overlooked thing with him is that his efficiency numbers for a TE were dreadfully awful. Eric Ebron is about the only TE that had a worse rookie season from an efficiency standpoint in recent history.
Plus in Miami, it seems very possible Gesicki is the last guy standing at some point when Amendola and Parker are his main competition.
Who is going too late?
- CharlieKelly
- Starter
- Posts: 507
- Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2016 7:03 pm
Re: Who is going too late?
-
- GOAT
- Posts: 27198
- Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2014 1:03 am
Re: Who is going too late?
Yikes. I apologize on that. I had him where he stands now. That must have been pre-combine, right?
"You're a creep. You got caught.." -Dan Patrick
Re: Who is going too late?
No that was for April going of Mizelles work. Think people had him grouped in with Kerryon JohnsonFantasyFreak wrote: ↑Fri May 18, 2018 6:58 amYikes. I apologize on that. I had him where he stands now. That must have been pre-combine, right?
-
- GOAT
- Posts: 27198
- Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2014 1:03 am
Re: Who is going too late?
Wow. That's insane with that YPC and athleticism score.knut45 wrote: ↑Fri May 18, 2018 7:15 amNo that was for April going of Mizelles work. Think people had him grouped in with Kerryon JohnsonFantasyFreak wrote: ↑Fri May 18, 2018 6:58 amYikes. I apologize on that. I had him where he stands now. That must have been pre-combine, right?
"You're a creep. You got caught.." -Dan Patrick
Re: Who is going too late?
DLF HOF League 16 team PPR
QB: Brees, Bradford, Lock(3.07)
RB: David Johnson, Penny, Sanders(1.07), Montgomery(1.06), Love(2.07) Bernard, MLynch, Morris, TJLogan, Joe Williams, Shaun Wilson
WR: Jeffery,Cooper, Josh Gordon, Dede Westbrook, Cam Meredith, Brice Butler, Chester Rogers, Lockett, Switzer, Malone, Cain (IR)
TE: Gronk, Swaim, Maxx Williams
QB: Brees, Bradford, Lock(3.07)
RB: David Johnson, Penny, Sanders(1.07), Montgomery(1.06), Love(2.07) Bernard, MLynch, Morris, TJLogan, Joe Williams, Shaun Wilson
WR: Jeffery,Cooper, Josh Gordon, Dede Westbrook, Cam Meredith, Brice Butler, Chester Rogers, Lockett, Switzer, Malone, Cain (IR)
TE: Gronk, Swaim, Maxx Williams
- playa_hata
- All Pro
- Posts: 1638
- Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2018 8:21 pm
Re: Who is going too late?
x2Vcize wrote: ↑Wed May 16, 2018 10:38 pm Dante Pettis.
I have no idea why there's a narrative that he's just a role player. When I watch his tape I see a legit WR. The way he sucks the ball in reminds me a lot of Hopkins, who had similar measurables. He was drafted in the early 2nd round by probably the 2nd best spot for a WR to go behind Green Bay, to a team with a hot young QB that needs a long-term WR1, yet he's available in the late 2nd round.
12 team PPR SuperFlex start 9 (Same for each team)
TM1
QB: Rodgers, Rivers, Dak, Dalton, Smith
RB: Zeke, CMC, Jacobs, Chubb, Gore, Dearnest
WR: Davante Adams, Tyreek, Fuller, Aj Brown, AB, MVS, Fulgham, Ward, Fitz, Beasley, amendola, zaccheus
TE: Ertz, Engram, Fells
TM2
QB: Rodgers, Baker, Stafford, Bridgewater
RB:Kamara, Chubb, Hunt, Singletary
WR:M Evans,D Adams,Kupp, AJ brown, lockett, sanders,miller, Patrick, Robinson, Hamilton, Lasley, D.Robinson, Trey Quinn, Scantling, agholor
TE: Kelce, Rudolph, Irv smith, gronk, Burton
TM1
QB: Rodgers, Rivers, Dak, Dalton, Smith
RB: Zeke, CMC, Jacobs, Chubb, Gore, Dearnest
WR: Davante Adams, Tyreek, Fuller, Aj Brown, AB, MVS, Fulgham, Ward, Fitz, Beasley, amendola, zaccheus
TE: Ertz, Engram, Fells
TM2
QB: Rodgers, Baker, Stafford, Bridgewater
RB:Kamara, Chubb, Hunt, Singletary
WR:M Evans,D Adams,Kupp, AJ brown, lockett, sanders,miller, Patrick, Robinson, Hamilton, Lasley, D.Robinson, Trey Quinn, Scantling, agholor
TE: Kelce, Rudolph, Irv smith, gronk, Burton
Re: Who is going too late?
Anthony Miller. Could turn out to be the best wr from this class and has the best opportunity imo. If he went anywhere else he'd be in the first round. A tier above Washington, Gallup and Pettis and for me it isn't close. He may be above Kirk as well if preseason shows us the that bears will be able to move the ball.
12 team/37 year contract cap ppr league/ Player (yrs left on team) --- Qb Rb Flex Flex Flex Flex (max 3 rbs, no req. TEs)
QB Josh Allen (1)
RB Nick Chubb (1) Miles Sanders (4) Chase Edmunds (1)
WR Kenny Golladay (2) Jerry Jeudy (4) Courtland Sutton (3) Allen Robinson (3) Marvin Jones (2) Nelson Agholor (1) Nkeal Harry (3)
K Josh Brown (1)
Dst Bears (1)
2021 1.04 Pick (waddle/pitts/williams)
QB Josh Allen (1)
RB Nick Chubb (1) Miles Sanders (4) Chase Edmunds (1)
WR Kenny Golladay (2) Jerry Jeudy (4) Courtland Sutton (3) Allen Robinson (3) Marvin Jones (2) Nelson Agholor (1) Nkeal Harry (3)
K Josh Brown (1)
Dst Bears (1)
2021 1.04 Pick (waddle/pitts/williams)
Re: Who is going too late?
really wish everyone would quit talking about #17 on the Bears... I love ADP steals...
I think some teams dropped him down their board after scouts saw him failing to earn consistent separation at the Senior Bowl practices (although he had some good plays there, despite that).
I have him as the WR6 of this class. 15th overall on my board, currently.
81st pick is more of a late-ish Day 2 pick.lukkynumber13 wrote: ↑Wed May 16, 2018 10:14 pm Michael Gallup is going TOO high. Late 1st, early 2nd. He was an early day-2 pick... people are too seduced by that depth chart.
I think some teams dropped him down their board after scouts saw him failing to earn consistent separation at the Senior Bowl practices (although he had some good plays there, despite that).
I have him as the WR6 of this class. 15th overall on my board, currently.
"I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. It’s the only way to be sure."
- Sun Tzu, 469 BCE
- Sun Tzu, 469 BCE
Re: Who is going too late?
Is it even possible to show that? Didn't the Bears look like the greatest show on grass last preseason? Obviously it didn't translate over to the regular season then..
12 Team FFPC TE Premium
QB: Herbert, Brady
RB: Barkley, Mixon, Jav Williams, Pierce, Drake
WR: Jefferson, AJ Brown, Metcalf, Hopkins, Peoples-Jones
TE: Kittle, Goedert
QB: Herbert, Brady
RB: Barkley, Mixon, Jav Williams, Pierce, Drake
WR: Jefferson, AJ Brown, Metcalf, Hopkins, Peoples-Jones
TE: Kittle, Goedert
Re: Who is going too late?
Courtland Sutton. Surprised I have not seen him on the list yet. Has everything you look for in a receiver. Solid college production with marginal QB. Strong size and athletic profile. He is the one WR in this class who has a good chance to be that dominant "X" receiver. Was right with Moore/Ridley for top receiver pre-draft and was 3rd WR drafted. I routinely see him fall behind WRs who profile more like complimentary/role players (Gallup, Kirk, Pettis, etc.) now. Seems situation is having too big of an effect here. DT/Sanders likely cap cuts next year. Great value dropping into 2nd round for some drafts.
-
- Practice Squad
- Posts: 123
- Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2015 9:01 am
Re: Who is going too late?
Kalen Ballage should be going in the first round of every draft
12 team dynasty/devy: (0.33 ppr RB) (0.66 ppr WR)
30 roster spots - Start: 1 QB, 1 RB, 3 WR, 1 TE, 2 SuperFLEX
QB - Aaron Rodgers, Tom Brady, Matt Ryan, Jimmy Garoppolo
RB - David Johnson, Leonard Fournette, Miles Sanders Adrian Peterson, Damien Harris CJ Prosise, Ty Montgomery, Darren Sproles, Kallen Ballage, Chase Edmonds, Wayne Gallman, Kapri Bibbs, Bo Scarbough
WR - Michael Thomas, Antonio Brown, Calvin Ridley, Robert Woods, Alshon Jeffrey, Tyrell Williams, Adam Humphries, Danny Amendola, Allen Hurns, Rishard Matthews
TE - Delanie Walker, Jared Cook, Maxx Williams
Devy Picks - Leonard Fournette, Calvin Ridley, Bo Scarbough (gross), Miles Sanders (yep)
30 roster spots - Start: 1 QB, 1 RB, 3 WR, 1 TE, 2 SuperFLEX
QB - Aaron Rodgers, Tom Brady, Matt Ryan, Jimmy Garoppolo
RB - David Johnson, Leonard Fournette, Miles Sanders Adrian Peterson, Damien Harris CJ Prosise, Ty Montgomery, Darren Sproles, Kallen Ballage, Chase Edmonds, Wayne Gallman, Kapri Bibbs, Bo Scarbough
WR - Michael Thomas, Antonio Brown, Calvin Ridley, Robert Woods, Alshon Jeffrey, Tyrell Williams, Adam Humphries, Danny Amendola, Allen Hurns, Rishard Matthews
TE - Delanie Walker, Jared Cook, Maxx Williams
Devy Picks - Leonard Fournette, Calvin Ridley, Bo Scarbough (gross), Miles Sanders (yep)
- lukkynumber13
- GOAT
- Posts: 13531
- Joined: Fri May 20, 2016 2:41 pm
Re: Who is going too late?
Mrs Ballage, is - is that you? Ma'm, congratulations on your son's success! I'm sorry to inform you that your son won't be long for the NFL, so hopefully he will have pre-paid the property tax on any mansions he may have bought you._stl_rams_fan_ wrote: ↑Sat May 19, 2018 12:58 am Kalen Ballage should be going in the first round of every draft
TEAM A - 12T (22 R/U, 20 R/U, 19 R/U, 18 Champ, 17 R/U)
HERBERT, Baker
BIJAN/KAMARA/MIXON, A Jones
HILL/AJB/DK/G WILSON/D Adams, Pittman, Z Flowers, Evans
KITTLE
/
TEAM B - 16T, SF, TEP (22 R/U)
HURTS/MINSHEW, Cousins, D Jones
JT/JACOBS, Mostert, Gus E
HILL/MCLAURIN/DEEBO
KELCE/KITTLE, LaPorta
/
TEAM C - 14T, SF (Joined in 22)
GENO
HENRY/A JONES, Gus E
HILL/DIGGS/K ALLEN
WALLER
/
TEAM D - 14T, 1QB (Joined in 22)
MAHOMES, Goff
BIJAN/BREECE/POLLARD
CHASE/DIGGS/G WILSON/AIYUK, DJM, Pittman
KITTLE, Goedert
/
TEAM E - 14T, SF, 2TE (Started in 22)
MAHOMES/T-LAW, Carr
BIJAN/CMC/SAQUON/POLLARD, Hall
HILL/AIYUK/EVANS/GODWIN, Hollywood, Thielen
MCBRIDE/ENGRAM, Goedert, Chig
/
TEAM F - 16T (Joined in 23)
R WILSON, Minshew
SAQUON/KAMARA/MIXON, Monty
DIGGS/GODWIN/AIYUK/EVANS, Thielen, A Cooper
KELCE, Schultz
/
TEAM G - 12T, SF & TEP (Joined in 23)
HERBERT/TUA, Kyler
BIJAN/MIXON, Spears, J Warren
JJ/G WILSON/WADDLE/OLAVE, Godwin, J Reed
LAPORTA
HERBERT, Baker
BIJAN/KAMARA/MIXON, A Jones
HILL/AJB/DK/G WILSON/D Adams, Pittman, Z Flowers, Evans
KITTLE
/
TEAM B - 16T, SF, TEP (22 R/U)
HURTS/MINSHEW, Cousins, D Jones
JT/JACOBS, Mostert, Gus E
HILL/MCLAURIN/DEEBO
KELCE/KITTLE, LaPorta
/
TEAM C - 14T, SF (Joined in 22)
GENO
HENRY/A JONES, Gus E
HILL/DIGGS/K ALLEN
WALLER
/
TEAM D - 14T, 1QB (Joined in 22)
MAHOMES, Goff
BIJAN/BREECE/POLLARD
CHASE/DIGGS/G WILSON/AIYUK, DJM, Pittman
KITTLE, Goedert
/
TEAM E - 14T, SF, 2TE (Started in 22)
MAHOMES/T-LAW, Carr
BIJAN/CMC/SAQUON/POLLARD, Hall
HILL/AIYUK/EVANS/GODWIN, Hollywood, Thielen
MCBRIDE/ENGRAM, Goedert, Chig
/
TEAM F - 16T (Joined in 23)
R WILSON, Minshew
SAQUON/KAMARA/MIXON, Monty
DIGGS/GODWIN/AIYUK/EVANS, Thielen, A Cooper
KELCE, Schultz
/
TEAM G - 12T, SF & TEP (Joined in 23)
HERBERT/TUA, Kyler
BIJAN/MIXON, Spears, J Warren
JJ/G WILSON/WADDLE/OLAVE, Godwin, J Reed
LAPORTA
Re: Who is going too late?
I have Ballage higher on my board than I think most do, but he still needs to learn how to play running-back. His tape is infuriating -- he does this pointless little stutter at the LoS on most of his carries, his footwork sucks, and he doesn't run with the power he should have with that frame of his. No instincts, indecisive, poor vision._stl_rams_fan_ wrote: ↑Sat May 19, 2018 12:58 am Kalen Ballage should be going in the first round of every draft
Very intriguing as a pass-catcher, though.
"I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. It’s the only way to be sure."
- Sun Tzu, 469 BCE
- Sun Tzu, 469 BCE
Re: Who is going too late?
Catch rate and yards per target, which are the ones PFF really focuses on as having relevance to the efficiency of a receiver.jtd1387 wrote: ↑Fri May 18, 2018 4:50 amJust curious, which efficiency numbers are you referring to? IIRC, Shepard had similar criticism, so maybe it's something to do with Eli? Also, I'd kinda expect less than great efficiency with him getting more volunteer then just about any rookie TE in memory.Vcize wrote: ↑Thu May 17, 2018 11:54 am While I agree Gesicki is underrated, I think there is a misnomer in thinking that Engram developed faster or was "ready to contribute" last year. He was forced to contribute last year because everyone else on the team got hurt. He certainly wasn't ready and the oft overlooked thing with him is that his efficiency numbers for a TE were dreadfully awful. Eric Ebron is about the only TE that had a worse rookie season from an efficiency standpoint in recent history.
Plus in Miami, it seems very possible Gesicki is the last guy standing at some point when Amendola and Parker are his main competition.
Engram
Catch Rate: 55.7%
YPT: 6.2
Gronk (rookie year)
Catch Rate: 71.2%
YPT: 9.25
Kelce (first year playing after sitting out rookie year with injury)
Catch Rate: 77.1%
YPT: 9.9
Ebron (rookie year)
Catch Rate: 53.2%
YPT: 5.3
As you can see, from an efficiency measure Engram was a lot more Eric Ebron than he was any of the guys that actually developed into top TEs.
You're not wrong that getting such high volume likely negatively impacted his efficiency relative to other TE prospects but the disparity is beyond large here. And even assuming that if we give him the benefit of the doubt, the narrative that he was really good as a rookie is still not really true. He was really highly targeted as a rookie is all we can say. In terms of ability we can't really say he's any better than NJoku or any of the guys ranked around him because he didn't actually perform any better than them.
In terms of guys in his tier, Hunter Henry is the real standout as having efficiency numbers similar to the other TEs that actually broke out and became top TEs, not Engram.
And just as an indicator of how poor that efficiency is, consider that in Gronk's second year when he put up probably the greatest TE season of all time with 90-1327-17, he had only 9 more targets than Engram had this year. Again I know there is a disparity in quality of target here, but holy cow it's hard to believe the difference in production there on the same number of targets.
Again, Engram could still develop into a top TE, but in terms of his actual quality of play he hasn't really shown any more signs of that than several other guys that are quite a bit cheaper to acquire.
12 Team FFPC TE Premium
QB: Herbert, Brady
RB: Barkley, Mixon, Jav Williams, Pierce, Drake
WR: Jefferson, AJ Brown, Metcalf, Hopkins, Peoples-Jones
TE: Kittle, Goedert
QB: Herbert, Brady
RB: Barkley, Mixon, Jav Williams, Pierce, Drake
WR: Jefferson, AJ Brown, Metcalf, Hopkins, Peoples-Jones
TE: Kittle, Goedert
-
- GOAT
- Posts: 27198
- Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2014 1:03 am
Re: Who is going too late?
By what logic? 4th round pick who wasn't a great producer at the college level. Curious as to why you feel this way?_stl_rams_fan_ wrote: ↑Sat May 19, 2018 12:58 am Kalen Ballage should be going in the first round of every draft
"You're a creep. You got caught.." -Dan Patrick
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: Ahrefs [Bot], Google [Bot] and 96 guests