Best Sell-High Method?

General talk about Dynasty Leagues.
kaius
Practice Squad
Practice Squad
Posts: 122
Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2016 11:34 pm

Best Sell-High Method?

Postby kaius » Sat Mar 17, 2018 7:11 pm

You own a hot commodity and want to cash in while the value is high... what’s a good way to attract buyers? Publically announce this guy is “on the block” and wait for offers? Target other high value guys and make offers?

What are strategies you’ve had success with?
10-team PPR 30-man rosters QB WR (x3) RB (x2) TE W/R/T(x3) SuperFlex

QB: Wilson, Brady, Goff, Roethlisberger
WR: Green, Antonio, Julio, M. Thomas, Gordon, DT, Lockett, Godwin, Cole, Miller, Washington, C Williams, J Matthews, A Wilson, J Reynolds
RB: Gurley, Conner, L Miller, Lynch, Foreman, Martin, CJA, Kelly, Hill, McGuire, Warren
TE: Gronk, Hooper, Goedert, Paul, Gathers



12-team PPR 29-man rosters QB RB (x2) WR (x2) TE W/R/T (x3) K DEF

QB: Newton, Dalton
WR: Davis, Cooks, Lockett, Sanders, Godwin, C. Coleman, A. Miller, J. Matt, Reynolds, Darboh, Dorsett,J Watson, D. Moore
RB: Kamara, Mixon, Cook, RoJo, Yeldon, Barber, L. Murray, Walton, Scarbrough, Tavon
TE: Graham, Ebron, Goedert, Shaheen, Vannett, Gathers
K: Crosby
DEF: Denver, Carolina, Cincinnatti

StableOfRBs
Starter
Starter
Posts: 690
Joined: Wed May 03, 2017 4:29 am

Re: Best Sell-High Method?

Postby StableOfRBs » Sat Mar 17, 2018 7:48 pm

kaius wrote: Sat Mar 17, 2018 7:11 pm You own a hot commodity and want to cash in while the value is high... what’s a good way to attract buyers? Publically announce this guy is “on the block” and wait for offers? Target other high value guys and make offers?

What are strategies you’ve had success with?
I'd much rather target other high value players and make offers. Personally when a players stock rises, for whatever reason, and the owner now says they're on the block I immediately feel like they're trying to gouge me based on the player's newfound value and as such I'm way less likely to even bother making an offer for the player.
Greek Mythology League - Heracles - 2QB/3RB/4WR/2TE/2Flex/2DT/2DE/4LB/2CB/2S/1DFlex:
https://www54.myfantasyleague.com/2022/home/13740#1

Marvel vs. DC League - Lords of Order - 1QB/2RB/3WR/1TE/1SFlex/2Flex/1DT/2DE/3LB/1CB/2S/1DFlex:
https://www54.myfantasyleague.com/2022/home/58114#1

User avatar
moishetreats
Legend
Legend
Posts: 6572
Joined: Wed Feb 12, 2014 6:37 pm
Contact:

Re: Best Sell-High Method?

Postby moishetreats » Sat Mar 17, 2018 7:58 pm

I do both. Can't think of a reason not to.
10 tms 27 plrs PPR
Start: 2QB 2RB 3WR 2TE 2Flex / best ball

QB: Herbert, Love, Rodgers, G Smith, Stidham, T Taylor, Hall
RB: McCaffrey, Mixon, Pacheco, Montgomery, Z White, Allgeier, Dillon
WR: Hill, St. Brown, Kupp, Allen, Lockett, B Johnson
TE: Kelce, Kmet, Kraft, Okonkwo, Dulcich, Tremble

2024: 2.09, 3.07, 3.08, 3.10, 4.08
2025: 2nd (x2), 4th, 5th (x2)
2026: 1st, 2nd (x2), 3rd, 4th, 5th



12 tms 22 active plyrs. Salary Cap $300 PPR
Start: 1QB 2RB 3WR 1TE 1SF 1Flex / best ball

QB: Lawrence (contract through 2026), Love ('24), Rodgers ('24), Stidham ('25), Lock ('25)
RB: Bijan Robinson ('25), Pollard ('27), Dillon ('24), Rodriguez ('24), Spiller ('24)
WR: G Wilson ('26), AJ Brown ('26), DJ Montgomery ('25)
TE: --
2024 Cap Spent: $186

IR: --
TAXI SQUAD (4 max): --

TheRookiePro
Starter
Starter
Posts: 700
Joined: Thu Jun 08, 2017 10:43 pm

Re: Best Sell-High Method?

Postby TheRookiePro » Sat Mar 17, 2018 8:05 pm

Last season was hugely disappointing for my team. Wont go into the details, but the one saving grace was the fact that I made two great trades:
Week 3 had just ended. DeMarco Murray had a 75-yard TD run against the Seahawks, and rushing for a total of 115 yards. I targeted an owner who had Lamar Miller as his RB1 and Blount as his RB2. His record was 2-1, definitely on the bubble and made up of older talent.
Gave: DeMarco and 2019 3rd Round Pick
Got: 2019 1st Round Pick


Week 11 had just ended. Jay Ajayi finished his 2nd game as an Eagle* and scored 11.1 in a game in which he only received 7 carries but was still able to get 91 rushing yards. I put Ajayi on the trade block the next day. That game was on November 19th, three days later I traded him to the eventual champion on the week of the trade deadline:
Gave: Jay Ajayi
Got 2018 2nd, 2019 1st, and 2020 3rd

*I live outside of Philadelphia. Most of the league is filled with Eagles fans, so they were hopeful that Ajayi was going to be a star. This also coincides with the hate they had for DeMarco after his horrible 2015 season in Philly. DeMarco was the hardest player I've ever tried to trade.

So my advice would be:
-Know your trade partners needs and be aware of their playoff chances and future outlook.
-Wait until your asset has a good/great performance
-Use the media noise to your advantage. DeMarco was supposed to be the lead guy after week 3. Ajayi was going to be a bell cow for Philly
10 Team PPR, 25 man roster(1st and 2nd year player PS option for $20), QB, 2 RB, 3WR, TE, FLEX (RB,WR,TE), K, DEF.

QB-Luck, A. Smith, Fitzpatrick
RB-Gurley, M. Gordon, Jeff Wilson, Tevin Coleman,T. Montgomery, John Kelly, Justin Davis
WR-K. Allen, T. Hill, Josh Gordon, Golladay, Fitzgerald, S. Watkins, J. Reynolds, Enunwa,
TE-Burton, Ebron, Walker
K-Gostkowski
Defense-Vikings, Jaguars, Ravens

millworkguy
Captain
Captain
Posts: 765
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2016 6:09 pm
Location: Right here

Re: Best Sell-High Method?

Postby millworkguy » Sun Mar 18, 2018 6:24 am

I'd sent out 4-5 trade offers to Teams that could use him. Often targeting draft picks/ ts prospects that would be starting on weaker rosters, and see what happens. Often I am prepared to accept a little less to make the deal now, rather than an ongoing conversation. Esp if I'm getting a player I've targeted for a while.
PPR IDP Contract Cap:
ConF (16 Team)
DAF (16 team)
DW2- Co-Commish (16 Team)

PPR IDP Salary Cap:
Hardcore - LAC (32 team)
T1 - Commish (12 team)
T2 - Commish (16 Team)

hockeyBjj
Hall of Fame
Hall of Fame
Posts: 4535
Joined: Wed Dec 21, 2016 7:05 am

Re: Best Sell-High Method?

Postby hockeyBjj » Sun Mar 18, 2018 7:35 am

Target rosters that could use the RB/WR you're trying to sell and send an actual offer

Player A gets traded to a good team, competition gets traded away, or starts a season and immediately over produces his pre-existing value and an owner says "Player A for sale" I know he's just trying to value gouge and I'm not interested unless I'm super high on him
Team 1- 10 team ppr, 1QB, 2RB, 3WR, 1TE, 2Flx, 1D, 1K
2022: 1-8
Finishes: 6th, 6th, 1st, 5th, 6th, 9th
QB: Lamar Jackson, Purdy
RB: Bijan, Dobbins, Achane, Charbonnet, Algier, McBride, waiver trash
WR: JSN, QJ, Addison, Dotson, Skyy Moore, Jameson Williams, Hyatt, T Dell, Boutte, Skowronek, Quez Watkins, Greg Dortch, waiver trash
TE: Hockenson, F Monroe, Juwan, Musgrave
D/K: Patriots, Vikings, Saints, Dicker

picks-
2024- 1,1,1,1,2,2,2,3,3,4,5,5
2025 1,1,1,2,3,4,5

team 2- 12 team SF, .5PPR, .5TE boost, 1QB, 1SF, 2 RB, 3WR, 1TE, 2Flex
2022: 8-1
Finishes: 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd :wall:
QB: Ljax, GenoD Jones, Minshew, Dobbs
RB: CMC, Stevenson, A Jones, Chubb, A Mattison, D cook, Perine, Mckinnon,
WR:Tyreek, Diggs, C Kupp, D Adams, Keenan Allen, Lockett, Gallup, A Lazard, Hodgins
TE: Kelce, LaPorta, Irv Smith,
No picks until 2026 5th rounder lol

sloth8u
Degenerate
Degenerate
Posts: 8586
Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2012 1:18 pm

Re: Best Sell-High Method?

Postby sloth8u » Sun Mar 18, 2018 7:52 am

kaius wrote: Sat Mar 17, 2018 7:11 pm You own a hot commodity and want to cash in while the value is high... what’s a good way to attract buyers? Publically announce this guy is “on the block” and wait for offers? Target other high value guys and make offers?

What are strategies you’ve had success with?
the most important thing is to recognize a sell high...and then get a deal done. there are sell highs in all markets. most of us want to keep pressing for more on a valued/highly valued asset, sometimes we're left holding only to see the value fall.

i like to go out and pursue the guys that i want if im looking to sell someone. i trade in all markets so its difficult to give an example....but in general im looking for production or top 5 picks. I'm looking for guys that may have an opportunity in the future if I'm dealing in lesser markets. i like to realize that qb's fall in rookie drafts, if i need a qb and have lamar miller....i may trade him for an early-mid 2nd, while my trade partner was looking for some hopeful immediate rb help for cheap.

as to your question...it really depends. it doesnt hurt to announce that someone is available, but you have to expect low ball offers. (why i pursue my own trades). if you play at mfl, be sure that your league uses the trade bait....that can help the entire league with player movement.

we could really help with what could be expected in return if you wanted to list a few guys that your looking to sell.

User avatar
ArrylT
Degenerate
Degenerate
Posts: 9543
Joined: Sun Feb 01, 2015 9:32 pm
Location: Canada

Re: Best Sell-High Method?

Postby ArrylT » Sun Mar 18, 2018 7:55 am

Different strategies work in different leagues and a lot depends on your mindset and that of your fellow owners - so best thing to do is figure out which strategies work best for your style of dynasty. If you are more reactive than proactive then using trade bait & announcing players available likely is a route to take - but if you're more proactive, then doing cold calls might be the way to go.
Please speak to clarion contrarion before considering the use of vetos..

kaius
Practice Squad
Practice Squad
Posts: 122
Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2016 11:34 pm

Re: Best Sell-High Method?

Postby kaius » Mon Mar 19, 2018 3:30 pm

StableOfRBs wrote: Sat Mar 17, 2018 7:48 pm
I'd much rather target other high value players and make offers. Personally when a players stock rises, for whatever reason, and the owner now says they're on the block I immediately feel like they're trying to gouge me based on the player's newfound value and as such I'm way less likely to even bother making an offer for the player.
This is what worries me most about just putting a guy on the block, or announcing he is available. I'm not an aggressive seller, so it's not natural for me anyway, but I've been worrying that maybe I'm missing out on a very useful tool.
10-team PPR 30-man rosters QB WR (x3) RB (x2) TE W/R/T(x3) SuperFlex

QB: Wilson, Brady, Goff, Roethlisberger
WR: Green, Antonio, Julio, M. Thomas, Gordon, DT, Lockett, Godwin, Cole, Miller, Washington, C Williams, J Matthews, A Wilson, J Reynolds
RB: Gurley, Conner, L Miller, Lynch, Foreman, Martin, CJA, Kelly, Hill, McGuire, Warren
TE: Gronk, Hooper, Goedert, Paul, Gathers



12-team PPR 29-man rosters QB RB (x2) WR (x2) TE W/R/T (x3) K DEF

QB: Newton, Dalton
WR: Davis, Cooks, Lockett, Sanders, Godwin, C. Coleman, A. Miller, J. Matt, Reynolds, Darboh, Dorsett,J Watson, D. Moore
RB: Kamara, Mixon, Cook, RoJo, Yeldon, Barber, L. Murray, Walton, Scarbrough, Tavon
TE: Graham, Ebron, Goedert, Shaheen, Vannett, Gathers
K: Crosby
DEF: Denver, Carolina, Cincinnatti

kaius
Practice Squad
Practice Squad
Posts: 122
Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2016 11:34 pm

Re: Best Sell-High Method?

Postby kaius » Mon Mar 19, 2018 3:31 pm

TheRookiePro wrote: Sat Mar 17, 2018 8:05 pm Last season was hugely disappointing for my team. Wont go into the details, but the one saving grace was the fact that I made two great trades:
Week 3 had just ended. DeMarco Murray had a 75-yard TD run against the Seahawks, and rushing for a total of 115 yards. I targeted an owner who had Lamar Miller as his RB1 and Blount as his RB2. His record was 2-1, definitely on the bubble and made up of older talent.
Gave: DeMarco and 2019 3rd Round Pick
Got: 2019 1st Round Pick


Week 11 had just ended. Jay Ajayi finished his 2nd game as an Eagle* and scored 11.1 in a game in which he only received 7 carries but was still able to get 91 rushing yards. I put Ajayi on the trade block the next day. That game was on November 19th, three days later I traded him to the eventual champion on the week of the trade deadline:
Gave: Jay Ajayi
Got 2018 2nd, 2019 1st, and 2020 3rd

*I live outside of Philadelphia. Most of the league is filled with Eagles fans, so they were hopeful that Ajayi was going to be a star. This also coincides with the hate they had for DeMarco after his horrible 2015 season in Philly. DeMarco was the hardest player I've ever tried to trade.

So my advice would be:
-Know your trade partners needs and be aware of their playoff chances and future outlook.
-Wait until your asset has a good/great performance
-Use the media noise to your advantage. DeMarco was supposed to be the lead guy after week 3. Ajayi was going to be a bell cow for Philly
Wow. Nice work on those trades. Thanks for the feedback also.
10-team PPR 30-man rosters QB WR (x3) RB (x2) TE W/R/T(x3) SuperFlex

QB: Wilson, Brady, Goff, Roethlisberger
WR: Green, Antonio, Julio, M. Thomas, Gordon, DT, Lockett, Godwin, Cole, Miller, Washington, C Williams, J Matthews, A Wilson, J Reynolds
RB: Gurley, Conner, L Miller, Lynch, Foreman, Martin, CJA, Kelly, Hill, McGuire, Warren
TE: Gronk, Hooper, Goedert, Paul, Gathers



12-team PPR 29-man rosters QB RB (x2) WR (x2) TE W/R/T (x3) K DEF

QB: Newton, Dalton
WR: Davis, Cooks, Lockett, Sanders, Godwin, C. Coleman, A. Miller, J. Matt, Reynolds, Darboh, Dorsett,J Watson, D. Moore
RB: Kamara, Mixon, Cook, RoJo, Yeldon, Barber, L. Murray, Walton, Scarbrough, Tavon
TE: Graham, Ebron, Goedert, Shaheen, Vannett, Gathers
K: Crosby
DEF: Denver, Carolina, Cincinnatti

kaius
Practice Squad
Practice Squad
Posts: 122
Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2016 11:34 pm

Re: Best Sell-High Method?

Postby kaius » Mon Mar 19, 2018 3:34 pm

millworkguy wrote: Sun Mar 18, 2018 6:24 am I'd sent out 4-5 trade offers to Teams that could use him. Often targeting draft picks/ ts prospects that would be starting on weaker rosters, and see what happens. Often I am prepared to accept a little less to make the deal now, rather than an ongoing conversation. Esp if I'm getting a player I've targeted for a while.
This seems like a good strategy for dealing lower tier guys that you don't have much invested in, but maybe not the best way to sell high on a premium player.
10-team PPR 30-man rosters QB WR (x3) RB (x2) TE W/R/T(x3) SuperFlex

QB: Wilson, Brady, Goff, Roethlisberger
WR: Green, Antonio, Julio, M. Thomas, Gordon, DT, Lockett, Godwin, Cole, Miller, Washington, C Williams, J Matthews, A Wilson, J Reynolds
RB: Gurley, Conner, L Miller, Lynch, Foreman, Martin, CJA, Kelly, Hill, McGuire, Warren
TE: Gronk, Hooper, Goedert, Paul, Gathers



12-team PPR 29-man rosters QB RB (x2) WR (x2) TE W/R/T (x3) K DEF

QB: Newton, Dalton
WR: Davis, Cooks, Lockett, Sanders, Godwin, C. Coleman, A. Miller, J. Matt, Reynolds, Darboh, Dorsett,J Watson, D. Moore
RB: Kamara, Mixon, Cook, RoJo, Yeldon, Barber, L. Murray, Walton, Scarbrough, Tavon
TE: Graham, Ebron, Goedert, Shaheen, Vannett, Gathers
K: Crosby
DEF: Denver, Carolina, Cincinnatti

kaius
Practice Squad
Practice Squad
Posts: 122
Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2016 11:34 pm

Re: Best Sell-High Method?

Postby kaius » Mon Mar 19, 2018 3:40 pm

hockeyBjj wrote: Sun Mar 18, 2018 7:35 am Target rosters that could use the RB/WR you're trying to sell and send an actual offer

Player A gets traded to a good team, competition gets traded away, or starts a season and immediately over produces his pre-existing value and an owner says "Player A for sale" I know he's just trying to value gouge and I'm not interested unless I'm super high on him
Definitely trying to avoid the perception of gouging, but I also want to feel as close to 100% confident about shipping a player that's on the upswing as possible.
10-team PPR 30-man rosters QB WR (x3) RB (x2) TE W/R/T(x3) SuperFlex

QB: Wilson, Brady, Goff, Roethlisberger
WR: Green, Antonio, Julio, M. Thomas, Gordon, DT, Lockett, Godwin, Cole, Miller, Washington, C Williams, J Matthews, A Wilson, J Reynolds
RB: Gurley, Conner, L Miller, Lynch, Foreman, Martin, CJA, Kelly, Hill, McGuire, Warren
TE: Gronk, Hooper, Goedert, Paul, Gathers



12-team PPR 29-man rosters QB RB (x2) WR (x2) TE W/R/T (x3) K DEF

QB: Newton, Dalton
WR: Davis, Cooks, Lockett, Sanders, Godwin, C. Coleman, A. Miller, J. Matt, Reynolds, Darboh, Dorsett,J Watson, D. Moore
RB: Kamara, Mixon, Cook, RoJo, Yeldon, Barber, L. Murray, Walton, Scarbrough, Tavon
TE: Graham, Ebron, Goedert, Shaheen, Vannett, Gathers
K: Crosby
DEF: Denver, Carolina, Cincinnatti

User avatar
Dynasty DeLorean
Degenerate
Degenerate
Posts: 8919
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2015 8:45 am

Re: Best Sell-High Method?

Postby Dynasty DeLorean » Mon Mar 19, 2018 3:48 pm

sloth8u wrote: Sun Mar 18, 2018 7:52 am
the most important thing is to recognize a sell high...and then get a deal done. there are sell highs in all markets. most of us want to keep pressing for more on a valued/highly valued asset, sometimes we're left holding only to see the value fall.
Exactly. Within reason, it doesn't matter what you get back as long as it's more than you think the player is worth. Everytime I have an opportunity to sell high on a player and I don't take it (Watkins, Karlos Williams, etc.), it bites me so hard.

kaius
Practice Squad
Practice Squad
Posts: 122
Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2016 11:34 pm

Re: Best Sell-High Method?

Postby kaius » Mon Mar 19, 2018 3:50 pm

sloth8u wrote: Sun Mar 18, 2018 7:52 am

the most important thing is to recognize a sell high...and then get a deal done. there are sell highs in all markets. most of us want to keep pressing for more on a valued/highly valued asset, sometimes we're left holding only to see the value fall.

i like to go out and pursue the guys that i want if im looking to sell someone. i trade in all markets so its difficult to give an example....but in general im looking for production or top 5 picks. I'm looking for guys that may have an opportunity in the future if I'm dealing in lesser markets. i like to realize that qb's fall in rookie drafts, if i need a qb and have lamar miller....i may trade him for an early-mid 2nd, while my trade partner was looking for some hopeful immediate rb help for cheap.

as to your question...it really depends. it doesnt hurt to announce that someone is available, but you have to expect low ball offers. (why i pursue my own trades). if you play at mfl, be sure that your league uses the trade bait....that can help the entire league with player movement.

we could really help with what could be expected in return if you wanted to list a few guys that your looking to sell.
I'd be glad to , but I honestly didn't want to make this thread solely about me or my teams. I know we have the trade advice threads. I was just thinking about this the other night and was curious how other fanatics thought about the subject.

For example, for a rebuilding team, is it wise to sell a guy like Kamara if you can get top 20 talent in return along with some additional buy-low targets? Or is a guy like that too young to sell-high on?
10-team PPR 30-man rosters QB WR (x3) RB (x2) TE W/R/T(x3) SuperFlex

QB: Wilson, Brady, Goff, Roethlisberger
WR: Green, Antonio, Julio, M. Thomas, Gordon, DT, Lockett, Godwin, Cole, Miller, Washington, C Williams, J Matthews, A Wilson, J Reynolds
RB: Gurley, Conner, L Miller, Lynch, Foreman, Martin, CJA, Kelly, Hill, McGuire, Warren
TE: Gronk, Hooper, Goedert, Paul, Gathers



12-team PPR 29-man rosters QB RB (x2) WR (x2) TE W/R/T (x3) K DEF

QB: Newton, Dalton
WR: Davis, Cooks, Lockett, Sanders, Godwin, C. Coleman, A. Miller, J. Matt, Reynolds, Darboh, Dorsett,J Watson, D. Moore
RB: Kamara, Mixon, Cook, RoJo, Yeldon, Barber, L. Murray, Walton, Scarbrough, Tavon
TE: Graham, Ebron, Goedert, Shaheen, Vannett, Gathers
K: Crosby
DEF: Denver, Carolina, Cincinnatti

kaius
Practice Squad
Practice Squad
Posts: 122
Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2016 11:34 pm

Re: Best Sell-High Method?

Postby kaius » Mon Mar 19, 2018 3:55 pm

ArrylT wrote: Sun Mar 18, 2018 7:55 am Different strategies work in different leagues and a lot depends on your mindset and that of your fellow owners - so best thing to do is figure out which strategies work best for your style of dynasty. If you are more reactive than proactive then using trade bait & announcing players available likely is a route to take - but if you're more proactive, then doing cold calls might be the way to go.
I like were your going with this. The selling philosophies behind it all.

Personally, I very much am a reactive player. Sure, sometimes I target guys and reach out to make a deal. And in those cases I usually do my very best to not low-ball anyone. Thus, if it gets rejected, there's no where else to go with the deal and it's just dead. Whereas when I get offers, they can come from all different angles, and I just react accordingly. This philosophy doesn't lend much room for turning profits, as it isn't very aggressive. I suppose I'm thinking about branching out of my comfort zone.
10-team PPR 30-man rosters QB WR (x3) RB (x2) TE W/R/T(x3) SuperFlex

QB: Wilson, Brady, Goff, Roethlisberger
WR: Green, Antonio, Julio, M. Thomas, Gordon, DT, Lockett, Godwin, Cole, Miller, Washington, C Williams, J Matthews, A Wilson, J Reynolds
RB: Gurley, Conner, L Miller, Lynch, Foreman, Martin, CJA, Kelly, Hill, McGuire, Warren
TE: Gronk, Hooper, Goedert, Paul, Gathers



12-team PPR 29-man rosters QB RB (x2) WR (x2) TE W/R/T (x3) K DEF

QB: Newton, Dalton
WR: Davis, Cooks, Lockett, Sanders, Godwin, C. Coleman, A. Miller, J. Matt, Reynolds, Darboh, Dorsett,J Watson, D. Moore
RB: Kamara, Mixon, Cook, RoJo, Yeldon, Barber, L. Murray, Walton, Scarbrough, Tavon
TE: Graham, Ebron, Goedert, Shaheen, Vannett, Gathers
K: Crosby
DEF: Denver, Carolina, Cincinnatti


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Pac_Eddy, topher and 45 guests