1st Round TE's aren't what you think, and neither is Adam Shaheen.

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Re: 1st Round TE's aren't what you think, and neither is Adam Shaheen.

Postby hockeyBjj » Mon Feb 05, 2018 11:10 am

StableOfRBs wrote: Mon Feb 05, 2018 8:22 am
Only thing I'm curious about is how this would compare to other positions. In the 5 years since 2012 (the ridiculous 2014 class aside) there have only been 2 solid fantasy WRs, Cooper and Hopkins.

-Blackmon
-Floyd
-Wright
-Jenkins
-Austin
-Patterson
-White
-Parker
-Perriman
-Agholor
-Dorsett

None of those WRs has had more than 1 1000 yard season, the only two on the list that have had one are Kendall Wright and Michael Floyd. The 2016 class has done pretty poorly so far but I think it's still early for some of them, Fuller has had the most yards so far with 635 his rookie year and 423 this year. The 2017 trio has been dismal as well (although, again, still too early to call busts) with a combined 45 catches for 470 yards and 0 TDs this year. Cooper and Hopkins are 2 out of 13 first round WRs taken since 2012 and the only ones who have been even remotely productive on a consistent basis. Again, ignoring the 2014 grouping which has looked more and more like an outlier as the years go by.

If 1st round TEs hit more often than 1st round WRs and in general nobody has an issue with the WR classes from year to year then is TE really that bad of an issue? They honestly seem like a safer option in the 1st round than WRs, at least in the recent years (can't really compare RBs because the usage is way different than TEs and WRs who are 99% of the time strictly pass-catchers).
I am very, very close to hitting a point where I will trade my early firsts back to acquire a boat load of 2nds in any draft and use the shotgun approach to hitting a fantasy usable non-rb rookie. Posts like this only make me feel stronger that way

Or just saying screw it and trading my 1st away every year for an established player as at least then I get something for it.
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Re: 1st Round TE's aren't what you think, and neither is Adam Shaheen.

Postby Goddard » Mon Feb 05, 2018 11:34 am

hockeyBjj wrote: Mon Feb 05, 2018 11:10 am I am very, very close to hitting a point where I will trade my early firsts back to acquire a boat load of 2nds in any draft and use the shotgun approach to hitting a fantasy usable non-rb rookie. Posts like this only make me feel stronger that way

Or just saying screw it and trading my 1st away every year for an established player as at least then I get something for it.
This is actually something I'm always open to doing and something that works for a lot of smart owners. More people don't use this strategy because we fall in love with the "upside" of the rookie and hope/wish they become the next OBJ/Zeke/Kamara...and so on.

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Re: 1st Round TE's aren't what you think, and neither is Adam Shaheen.

Postby Mjvb5 » Mon Feb 05, 2018 11:56 am

Goddard wrote: Mon Feb 05, 2018 11:34 am
hockeyBjj wrote: Mon Feb 05, 2018 11:10 am I am very, very close to hitting a point where I will trade my early firsts back to acquire a boat load of 2nds in any draft and use the shotgun approach to hitting a fantasy usable non-rb rookie. Posts like this only make me feel stronger that way

Or just saying screw it and trading my 1st away every year for an established player as at least then I get something for it.
This is actually something I'm always open to doing and something that works for a lot of smart owners. More people don't use this strategy because we fall in love with the "upside" of the rookie and hope/wish they become the next OBJ/Zeke/Kamara...and so on.
Normally what I end up doing, other than in salary cap league since the upside of getting one of those guys is even higher because of just how dirt cheap the contract are

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Re: 1st Round TE's aren't what you think, and neither is Adam Shaheen.

Postby Dynasty DeLorean » Mon Feb 05, 2018 12:11 pm

dynastyninja wrote: Mon Feb 05, 2018 8:25 am
Pac_Eddy wrote: Mon Feb 05, 2018 5:37 am
Dynasty DeLorean wrote: Mon Feb 05, 2018 2:04 amWe've all heard the trope "1st round TE's never bust" or they "hold their value really well".
I don't think this is a thing, at least not that I've seen.
Yeah I've never seen that either
Whew, ok. I really thought it was a common saying but I stand corrected!

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Re: 1st Round TE's aren't what you think, and neither is Adam Shaheen.

Postby Goddard » Mon Feb 05, 2018 12:25 pm

Dynasty DeLorean wrote: Mon Feb 05, 2018 12:11 pm
dynastyninja wrote: Mon Feb 05, 2018 8:25 am
Pac_Eddy wrote: Mon Feb 05, 2018 5:37 am

I don't think this is a thing, at least not that I've seen.
Yeah I've never seen that either
Whew, ok. I really thought it was a common saying but I stand corrected!
Maybe back in the day when less TEs were drafted in the 1st? Have no idea, just pure speculation.

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Re: 1st Round TE's aren't what you think, and neither is Adam Shaheen.

Postby Dynasty DeLorean » Mon Feb 05, 2018 12:38 pm

Goddard wrote: Mon Feb 05, 2018 11:04 am 6 of the 18 1st round TEs becoming studs doesn't seem that bad. I'd be curious what the percentage of RBs and WRs taken in the 1st round become studs at their position.
At best it's 33% which doesn't seem that great to me. It's really only 3 of 18 in my opinion but I added in the other 3 depending on how a person would define "stud". 16%-33% chance of getting a stud doesn't seem all that great to me. I think if you just asked ppl they'd probably say it's about a 50% chance at worst, or maybe that's just what I thought.

I would guess the percentage for other positions is about the same? I think the thing is I (apparently for no reason) thought the 1st round TE was a safer bet somehow.

I get that other players like Marcedes Lewis have had long careers but they weren't exactly difference makers at the position.

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Re: 1st Round TE's aren't what you think, and neither is Adam Shaheen.

Postby Goddard » Mon Feb 05, 2018 12:44 pm

Dynasty DeLorean wrote: Mon Feb 05, 2018 12:38 pm
Goddard wrote: Mon Feb 05, 2018 11:04 am 6 of the 18 1st round TEs becoming studs doesn't seem that bad. I'd be curious what the percentage of RBs and WRs taken in the 1st round become studs at their position.
At best it's 33% which doesn't seem that great to me. It's really only 3 of 18 in my opinion but I added in the other 3 depending on how a person would define "stud". 16%-33% chance of getting a stud doesn't seem all that great to me. I think if you just asked ppl they'd probably say it's about a 50% chance at worst, or maybe that's just what I thought.

I would guess the percentage for other positions is about the same? I think the thing is I (apparently for no reason) thought the 1st round TE was a safer bet somehow.

I get that other players like Marcedes Lewis have had long careers but they weren't exactly difference makers at the position.
I wouldn't consider him a stud either. I guess I'm just curious what the percentage of players who become "studs" at other positions are who are taken in the 1st. If it's close to 33%, then it makes some sense. If not, then TEs are more of an outlier. It's also probably difficult to really judge though with such a small sample size. Like in fantasy, NFL teams probably avoid taking TEs early because they know they can get one later in the draft or via free agency.

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Re: 1st Round TE's aren't what you think, and neither is Adam Shaheen.

Postby Dynasty DeLorean » Mon Feb 05, 2018 12:51 pm

Goddard wrote: Mon Feb 05, 2018 12:44 pm Like in fantasy, NFL teams probably avoid taking TEs early because they know they can get one later in the draft or via free agency.
Well we hear TE is such a hard position to learn/play, I think there just aren't many people in the world that are really good at it. Also from a teams perspective it's probably really hard to scout for because there's a lot of projection involved. I guess the position is a lot like the QB position in a way.

Also I think the 2017 1st round TE's will skew the percentages up a bit but that will take some time obviously.

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Re: 1st Round TE's aren't what you think, and neither is Adam Shaheen.

Postby stoneghost28 » Mon Feb 05, 2018 2:34 pm

Dynasty DeLorean wrote: Mon Feb 05, 2018 2:04 am I got the itch to do some research on other positions outside of RB and I tried to focus on TE. I saw some work done on how bench press and college production or whatever else appears to correlate with success. We've all heard the trope "1st round TE's never bust" or they "hold their value really well". I decided to look further into the subject for myself.

You have to go all the way back to 2007 to find a legitimate 1st round "stud/difference maker" TE (and I would define that as roughly 3+ years of around 800+ receiving yards). Greg Olsen in 2007. Vernon Davis in 2006. Kellen Winslow 2004. Todd Heap, Dallas Clark and Heath Miller are borderline. That's pretty much it since the year 2000. So prior to 2017, the 18 or so 1st round TE's since 2000 yielded 3-6 "studs" at best. That's... not good, right? In fantasy we're not looking for the TE's that get you 400-500 receiving yards every year (although they are nice to have for depth). What we really want is sustained high-level success... yearly difference makers. Studs. But we can't just assume every 1st round TE is going to be a stud... in fact, it seems the majority of them won't be. So now what do we do.

I started looking at some common traits that most successful stud TE's share. I ran the numbers and to minimal surprise, several players from the 2013 and 2017 TE classes popped up very favorably. But we already kind of knew that, right? Well I think what really surprised me is that Adam Shaheen literally checks every box. Admittedly he was already on my radar from other models I've seen but I suppose I didn't realize just how well he fits the stud TE mold. He was an after-thought in most rookie drafts last year and his lack of usage this year probably hasn't moved the needle much for most (although he did haul in 12 of 12 catchable targets). The Bears new Head Coach is coming from spending 5 years in Kansas City where they heavily utilized Travis Kelce (whom coincidentally profiles very similarly to Shaheen). The Bears (right now at least) have limited receiving options and a young QB that could look to lean on his TE.

Only about 13 of 262 TE's met the requirements, so it's a very select group. Full disclosure, Rob Housler is the one major outlier that checks every box but was a total dud (it's remarkable just how bad he's been given his NFL draft resume). Other TE's whose fate have yet to be determined such as ASJ also passed with flying colors. So i'm not saying to go crazy acquiring Shaheen at any cost, but I do believe he makes for a worthwhile investment if you can get him cheaply.
I'm curious how you looked at the TE's. Not all these TE's were taken for their pass catching prowess. The Jets were notorious for angering their fan base on draft day, and one of the reasons was the frequency with which they used top draft picks on blocking TE's. It used to be quite common to do that. A couple of examples of guys like that include Anthony Becht, Heath Miller, Marcedes Lewis, Brandon Pettigrew, and to some extent Jerramy Stevens who a lot was expected of in the passing game, but hadn't actually done anything in college as a prospect worthy of note. There are an unusual amount of busts, and if we look at the 2nd/3rd round we'll see even more guys that were drafted as much or more for in line blocking as for pass catching skills.

I am the very happy owner of Shaheen in nearly all of my leagues, even in one or two where people inexplicably dropped him during the season (did they expect him to go 50-750-6 w/no talent anywhere in that offense?!?! and as a rookie TE too? with no QB?), I made a point of going hard after TE's in all of my rookie drafts prioritzing them 1. Njoku 2. Howard 3. Engram 4.Everett 5. Jonnu Smith and 6. G. Kittle. I believe I own at least 2 shares of all of them save Howard, and in most cases I own 3-4 shares across my 8 dynasty teams, and there isn't a single dynasty team that has fewer than 2 of those 6 guys. I just LOVED those prospects, and while I absolutely detested using up roster space on players who might not be usable until late '18 or even later, the TE position is such an abject disaster that I felt it would be a much better use of resources to pick up a couple of these guys, then trade a ton of assets, or use a very very high draft pick on a top 3-4 TE back when Gronk, Kelce, Reed, and Olsen cost so much and all had issues in place. Much better to me to take a couple of shot at guys like them, and then pick up one competent vet, and wait.

I'm pretty happy with that strategy at this point because other than Everett, 5 of those 6 guys showed me enough in 2017 to suggest that as full time starters getting tons of snaps, they'd probably become hugely productive, and with Everett, I think they're just sorting out that offense on the run (of the pass catching weapons on the offense, virtually all of them were newly acquired: Woods, Watson, Kupp, Everett. I imagine as Everett learns the system he could evolve into a legit weapon, as he was drafted to be the Rams Jordan Reed.

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Re: 1st Round TE's aren't what you think, and neither is Adam Shaheen.

Postby Vcize » Mon Feb 05, 2018 7:47 pm

Dynasty DeLorean wrote: Mon Feb 05, 2018 12:38 pm
Goddard wrote: Mon Feb 05, 2018 11:04 am 6 of the 18 1st round TEs becoming studs doesn't seem that bad. I'd be curious what the percentage of RBs and WRs taken in the 1st round become studs at their position.
At best it's 33% which doesn't seem that great to me. It's really only 3 of 18 in my opinion but I added in the other 3 depending on how a person would define "stud". 16%-33% chance of getting a stud doesn't seem all that great to me. I think if you just asked ppl they'd probably say it's about a 50% chance at worst, or maybe that's just what I thought.

I would guess the percentage for other positions is about the same? I think the thing is I (apparently for no reason) thought the 1st round TE was a safer bet somehow.

I get that other players like Marcedes Lewis have had long careers but they weren't exactly difference makers at the position.
33% is an incredibly good hit rate for studs. It gets even better when you consider that these guys are all going mid or late 1st in rookie drafts. The hit rate on getting a stud in that range overall is way way less than 33%, so if you can get 33% by choosing 1st round TEs that's a massive improvement.

That said, I think you were generous in who you labeled "studs". Heath Miller is in no way a stud.

Still, even 16% is probably pretty good especially considering where they typically go in rookie drafts.
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Re: 1st Round TE's aren't what you think, and neither is Adam Shaheen.

Postby ArrylT » Mon Feb 05, 2018 9:54 pm

The 3 years Heath Miller got 90+ targets he put up TE1 seasons. The Average TE1 gets 80+ targets.

Take 2011 - Miller only got 74 of 537 targets (14%) - but that year they had AB & Wallace each put up 1100 yard seasons and account for 45% of targets. Ward & Sanders ate up another 100 targets.

2013 saw 578 Targets, but AB ate up 167, Bell got 66, Sanders 113, Crotchery 77 while Miller got 79. That year he was only 20points away from a TE1 season but for some reason only got 1 TD (4 TDs gives him pretty much a TE1 Season).

2007 Big Ben was not off his training wheels yet. ;) Only 435 targets to go around - Ward took 113, Holmes to 85, Miller got 14% again with 61.

It is hard to be a stud TE if you're not the focal point of the offense, or a primary safety valve? Maybe our resident Steelers expert in clarion contrarion can shed some further light on Heath Miller.
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Re: 1st Round TE's aren't what you think, and neither is Adam Shaheen.

Postby ArrylT » Mon Feb 05, 2018 10:01 pm

In comparison here are some of Jason Wittens target seasons

122
89
90
141
120
124
128
117
147
111
90
104
95

Basically Wittens lower seasons being targeted were Millers heights. Witten was drafted in the 3rd yet Miller was drafted in the 1st.
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Re: 1st Round TE's aren't what you think, and neither is Adam Shaheen.

Postby skip » Mon Feb 05, 2018 11:03 pm

I'll back you, DD, as this was definitely at one time a very common line of thinking in fantasy circles that if a TE was selected in the first round they were a lock for fantasy success.

Someone mentioned how they use their draft picks. I've pretty much always played the "bird in the hand" strategy and I either trade my picks outright or trade down. I've only once ever had the 1.01 and it was the only year I didn't trade my first away. Past the top couple of picks I find the value is better to trade it.
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Re: 1st Round TE's aren't what you think, and neither is Adam Shaheen.

Postby clarion contrarion » Tue Feb 06, 2018 2:34 am

ArrylT wrote: Mon Feb 05, 2018 9:54 pm The 3 years Heath Miller got 90+ targets he put up TE1 seasons. The Average TE1 gets 80+ targets.

Take 2011 - Miller only got 74 of 537 targets (14%) - but that year they had AB & Wallace each put up 1100 yard seasons and account for 45% of targets. Ward & Sanders ate up another 100 targets.

2013 saw 578 Targets, but AB ate up 167, Bell got 66, Sanders 113, Crotchery 77 while Miller got 79. That year he was only 20points away from a TE1 season but for some reason only got 1 TD (4 TDs gives him pretty much a TE1 Season).

2007 Big Ben was not off his training wheels yet. ;) Only 435 targets to go around - Ward took 113, Holmes to 85, Miller got 14% again with 61.

It is hard to be a stud TE if you're not the focal point of the offense, or a primary safety valve? Maybe our resident Steelers expert in clarion contrarion can shed some further light on Heath Miller.
heath miller while not a fantasy stud helped me win a ton of leagues as he was always cheap and was steady with an occasional big game - he was for the bulk of his career a real football stud and so much more complete than many of his fantasy peers, a true unsung superstar of some damned good football teams/ NEVER as issue with his contract or behavior wise . One of my all time favorite steelers.
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Re: 1st Round TE's aren't what you think, and neither is Adam Shaheen.

Postby charleschillffb » Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:26 am

The TE position is also very watered down. When you ask most "fantasy" players, they think Gronk, Kelce, Ertz, Olsen, etc...anyone NOT in that discussion isn't favorable. However, there are a few who have had solid careers...and even done what expected, but have not lived up to the unfair hype placed upon them from a fantasy standpoint.

Eric Ebron comes to mind. So does Jared Cook. These guys are very, very scheme dependent. Jermaine Gresham is another one who got stuck in a TE wasteland in Arizona and most would consider all of these guys busts. For fantasy, we either want elite upside or year to year reliability. Don't give either of those and most will cast a player off as useless.

Someone before mentioned Marcedes Lewis. Great example. Nobody in fantasy would come close to consider him a success, but from a real life TE perspective, the fast he's had a decade long career and still going is a rousing success.


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