What is the standard for vetoing a trade?

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sugbear65
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Re: What is the standard for vetoing a trade?

Postby sugbear65 » Fri Oct 13, 2017 4:37 am

Bad owners ruin leagues, not bad trades. Veto only for collusion is my mantra as well.

And Tsunami, cmon man. It totally IS your job to make offers on a player if you want them. Because the guy was trading AB, he went to a team and got an offer he liked. And honestly it wasn't even a bad value deal like you make it out to be. But he's not obliged to go to every owner and say "do u want player x before I trade them". He went and got a deal he liked. U could have inquired about AB more recently(obviously something's changed from the preseason if he's selling now), but to get upset because another owner got him stinks of jealousy.

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Re: What is the standard for vetoing a trade?

Postby dlf_jaronf » Fri Oct 13, 2017 7:37 am

FYI - Ryan McDowell and Scott Fish are discussing this topic on their next Commission Impossible podcast

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Re: What is the standard for vetoing a trade?

Postby Tsunami » Fri Oct 13, 2017 7:42 am

clarion contrarion wrote: Fri Oct 13, 2017 3:57 am Benjamin Franklin once said: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."


this is that in a nutshell ^^^^ , vetoes are rooted in 100% self interest and jealousy. They are a hallmark of a weak league and weak owners ! The veto lovers scream about the sanctity of the league but what it is in reality is just they want to win and think the other owners should get permission to run their own teams the way they see fit. They are so deluded and arrogant as to think they are the only ones who know value and the "right" way to win .

The above post about hogan /cooper is a perfect example as would have been a trade I made a few years back when I traded keenan allen straight up for leveon bell after their rookies seasons , nearly unanimously the league laughed and agreed my steeler homerism had gotten me destroyed and the mocking started but how has that turned out since? If not for bell's injuries and suspensions that deal would be so lopsided in my favor thus far that it is nearly 180 degrees from the consensus opinion. The point being I had a feeling about bell and turned out I was right but in a veto league if some other owners disagreed I miss on bell's big time # and end up waiting years for allen just now getting back to where he was in 2015 after scoring once in the chargers last 29 games.

you think you know but you just don't know .
LOL I'm a libertarian. Giving up freedom for safety is an argument for gun rights and against drug laws, but not relevant in a competitive game. A rule against collusion is giving up liberty, but who would play without that rule? Because without a rule against collusion it becomes a different game. To me this is the same issue.

Two teams are involved in every trade. Why do you assume a veto is jealousy against the winner and not sympathy for the loser? Because you're a contrarian, is the answer. But once again you're projecting your attitude onto everyone else. If you're playing with assholes who will veto every trade they aren't involved in then it doesn't work for your league, but that isn't true for most of us. There are more people who don't know how to play than there are narcissists who don't understand the concept of fair play. A veto isn't for weak owners, it's protection against weak owners.

February 2014 DLF ADP: Keenan Allen 16.67, Le'Veon Bell 17.67. I've already pointed out why the end results don't matter, but you need to check on these things before you post them.
sugbear65 wrote: Fri Oct 13, 2017 4:37 am Bad owners ruin leagues, not bad trades. Veto only for collusion is my mantra as well.

And Tsunami, cmon man. It totally IS your job to make offers on a player if you want them. Because the guy was trading AB, he went to a team and got an offer he liked. And honestly it wasn't even a bad value deal like you make it out to be. But he's not obliged to go to every owner and say "do u want player x before I trade them". He went and got a deal he liked. U could have inquired about AB more recently(obviously something's changed from the preseason if he's selling now), but to get upset because another owner got him stinks of jealousy.
How do bad owners ruin bad leagues? With bad trades. A veto is a protection against a bad owner ruining a good league.

I don't see why you think it's about jealousy. I don't want to win because some idiot gave me Antonio Brown for free any more than I want to lose because they were given to a competitor. I quit a league this year because it was too easy, I've already decided to quit another because of trades like this. Playing Monopoly with children isn't fun, it removes all the strategy, the concept of the game only works when everyone has a decent understanding of the values. The same is true for fantasy football.

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Re: What is the standard for vetoing a trade?

Postby palevermilion » Fri Oct 13, 2017 8:21 am

Tsunami wrote: Fri Oct 13, 2017 7:42 am How do bad owners ruin bad leagues? With bad trades. A veto is a protection against a bad owner ruining a good league.
But what happens when bad owners veto? A veto doesn't protect the league. It protects the vetoer's best interests. Period. Everybody who is casting a veto vote is 100% biased. If there is a bad owner in your league, vetoing his trades doesn't make the league a good league. The bad owner is still in the league. If you have an owner in your league who is so bad he's going to ruin the league with his trades, replace that owner.

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Re: What is the standard for vetoing a trade?

Postby Tsunami » Fri Oct 13, 2017 8:35 am

UnitedLoon wrote: Fri Oct 13, 2017 8:21 am
Tsunami wrote: Fri Oct 13, 2017 7:42 am How do bad owners ruin bad leagues? With bad trades. A veto is a protection against a bad owner ruining a good league.
But what happens when bad owners veto? A veto doesn't protect the league. It protects the vetoer's best interests. Period. Everybody who is casting a veto vote is 100% biased. If there is a bad owner in your league, vetoing his trades doesn't make the league a good league. The bad owner is still in the league. If you have an owner in your league who is so bad he's going to ruin the league with his trades, replace that owner.
I said the same thing, replace the owner unless maybe they are new and show they've learned something. But you can't only replace the owner, you also have to veto the trade. I took over a team last year that had made a bad trade two days before the owner quit, and they wouldn't reverse it, and I didn't understand why they wanted the other owner to have an advantage and me to have a big hole to dig out of. I'm okay with it because I like a challenge but it doesn't make any sense.

I have voted to veto my own trade. I don't think people always vote in their own best interest. And nobody is saying that vetos have to be done by league voting, a commish with good judgment who doesn't only vote in his own best interest is the ideal way.

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Re: What is the standard for vetoing a trade?

Postby clarion contrarion » Fri Oct 13, 2017 8:58 am

UnitedLoon wrote: Fri Oct 13, 2017 8:21 am
Tsunami wrote: Fri Oct 13, 2017 7:42 am How do bad owners ruin bad leagues? With bad trades. A veto is a protection against a bad owner ruining a good league.
But what happens when bad owners veto? A veto doesn't protect the league. It protects the vetoer's best interests. Period. Everybody who is casting a veto vote is 100% biased. If there is a bad owner in your league, vetoing his trades doesn't make the league a good league. The bad owner is still in the league. If you have an owner in your league who is so bad he's going to ruin the league with his trades, replace that owner.
exactly ^^ as someone mentioned and I forget who so I cannot pass on the credit in the last veto thread a veto is the other owners colluding against the 2 trading owners .



voting to veto your own trade :crazy: is called buyers remorse and illustrates to everyone what we are dealing with so thanks for the clarification.
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Re: What is the standard for vetoing a trade?

Postby Goirish374 » Fri Oct 13, 2017 10:23 am

Good grief.

Competitive disadvantage? Are you serious?

Every trade anyone has ever made has done two things:

1) created a competitive advantage or disadvantage for someone.
2) changed the “balance of the league”

It is, not to put too fine a point on it, the whole, exact and specific point of making trades.

Good freaking grief what an absurd argument to make.

How do bad owners ruin leagues?

By bringing leagues to their knees mired in endless threads and posts about “the good of the league” and “league equality.”

That is what sours tastes. That is what drives people from leagues. That is what kills leagues.

It should be bronzed and tacked to the head of the forum: Whiny owners have killed far more leagues than so-called bad trades.
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Re: What is the standard for vetoing a trade?

Postby WhatWouldDitkaDo » Fri Oct 13, 2017 12:18 pm

Tsunami wrote: Thu Oct 12, 2017 11:43 pm
WhatWouldDitkaDo wrote: Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:38 am
Tsunami wrote: Thu Oct 12, 2017 7:45 amSomeone in my league just traded Antonio Brown for two late 1sts (16 team league), a late 2nd, and Edelman. I would have given way more, and the team that got Brown is already stacked. But I didn't get an opportunity. So how do I compete with this? It makes the league unenjoyable and unfair.
100% false. How does that make a league unenjoyable and unfair? You had every opportunity to send trade offers for Antonio Brown. You're just mad because you didn't, and someone else got him instead for a reasonably fair price instead of an overpay. In theory then you would veto Amari Cooper for Chris Hogan. What if a contender wants Hogan for a title run now? Yes market value might suggest Cooper is worth more, but it's worth it to the contending team to win a title now and who cares if Cooper rebounds and is a WR1 for the next 10 years?

No veto ever unless there's clear collusion.
This is the point. I did ask about Antonio Brown in the preseason, but the person wasn't selling then. (Also, it's ridiculous to say that you should send an offer for every valuable player, and if you don't that it's your fault when they give them away. But I send out more than most people.)

At some point they lost a game or whatever and something clicked and they suddenly wanted to trade him no matter what, and they gave him away. I can't read minds, so I didn't know when that happened. The only way I could have reasonably competed with this other owner (who did nothing other than accept a gift) is if I had sent out unfair offers to every bad owner every week. And that isn't a game I want to play.

What is the practical difference between collusion and a bad trade? The motive doesn't matter, if someone gives Antonio Brown to a top team it hurts my chance of winning just as much if they do it randomly as if they do it intentionally.
Here's the thing though. 2 1sts plus a 2nd plus Edelman is a fair trade for Brown. Just because you would've given more does not make it unfair. Just because it hurts your team does not make the trade unfair. Under your train of thought, another contending team getting any asset to help them beat you is "unfair". The point of the game is to beat your team...
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Re: What is the standard for vetoing a trade?

Postby clarion contrarion » Fri Oct 13, 2017 1:23 pm

Under your train of thought, another contending team getting any asset to help them beat you is "unfair". The point of the game is to beat your team...




WWDD ^ from now on I send you my posts you carve through & synthesize my verbosity and boil it down to such a clear thought well done sir !
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K tucker DEF pittsburgh chicago
2012 , 2014 2015 2016 2017 & 2018 ACDL Champion 5 IN A ROW 6 in 7 years- now that is dynasty!
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Re: What is the standard for vetoing a trade?

Postby WhatWouldDitkaDo » Fri Oct 13, 2017 3:06 pm

clarion contrarion wrote: Fri Oct 13, 2017 1:23 pm Under your train of thought, another contending team getting any asset to help them beat you is "unfair". The point of the game is to beat your team...

WWDD ^ from now on I send you my posts. you carve through & synthesize my verbosity and boil it down to such a clear thought. well done sir!
Haha thanks. My conciseness is often due to laziness, but it works. :wink:
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WR: Tyreek Hill, Mike Evans, Cooper Kupp, Michael Gallup, Christian Kirk
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Re: What is the standard for vetoing a trade?

Postby Cult of Dionysus » Sat Oct 14, 2017 11:34 am

Without an admission, you really can't actually prove collusion, since your quantum of evidence is basically limited to the trade details. So I don't really understand how so many of you can be on that bandwagon.

The standard that I set forth earlier is a fairly high standard, and one that can be evaluated solely looking at the trade. No need to interview the trading parties, no need to hack their email accounts and view their social media posts, no need for lie-detectors. lol. If it's so unbalanced that no reasonable fantasy football manager would ever make that trade, and all non-trading parties believe it is so, then overturn the trade.

And to be clear, 90% of the bad trade threads that I see on this forum would not get a vote from me to overturn.

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Re: What is the standard for vetoing a trade?

Postby Ryantacular » Mon Oct 16, 2017 1:58 pm

Never Veto

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Re: What is the standard for vetoing a trade?

Postby ThatDude » Mon Oct 16, 2017 11:12 pm

Tsunami wrote: Fri Oct 13, 2017 7:42 am
clarion contrarion wrote: Fri Oct 13, 2017 3:57 am Benjamin Franklin once said: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."


this is that in a nutshell ^^^^ , vetoes are rooted in 100% self interest and jealousy. They are a hallmark of a weak league and weak owners ! The veto lovers scream about the sanctity of the league but what it is in reality is just they want to win and think the other owners should get permission to run their own teams the way they see fit. They are so deluded and arrogant as to think they are the only ones who know value and the "right" way to win .

The above post about hogan /cooper is a perfect example as would have been a trade I made a few years back when I traded keenan allen straight up for leveon bell after their rookies seasons , nearly unanimously the league laughed and agreed my steeler homerism had gotten me destroyed and the mocking started but how has that turned out since? If not for bell's injuries and suspensions that deal would be so lopsided in my favor thus far that it is nearly 180 degrees from the consensus opinion. The point being I had a feeling about bell and turned out I was right but in a veto league if some other owners disagreed I miss on bell's big time # and end up waiting years for allen just now getting back to where he was in 2015 after scoring once in the chargers last 29 games.

you think you know but you just don't know .
LOL I'm a libertarian. Giving up freedom for safety is an argument for gun rights and against drug laws, but not relevant in a competitive game. A rule against collusion is giving up liberty, but who would play without that rule? Because without a rule against collusion it becomes a different game. To me this is the same issue.

Two teams are involved in every trade. Why do you assume a veto is jealousy against the winner and not sympathy for the loser? Because you're a contrarian, is the answer. But once again you're projecting your attitude onto everyone else. If you're playing with assholes who will veto every trade they aren't involved in then it doesn't work for your league, but that isn't true for most of us. There are more people who don't know how to play than there are narcissists who don't understand the concept of fair play. A veto isn't for weak owners, it's protection against weak owners.

February 2014 DLF ADP: Keenan Allen 16.67, Le'Veon Bell 17.67. I've already pointed out why the end results don't matter, but you need to check on these things before you post them.
sugbear65 wrote: Fri Oct 13, 2017 4:37 am Bad owners ruin leagues, not bad trades. Veto only for collusion is my mantra as well.

And Tsunami, cmon man. It totally IS your job to make offers on a player if you want them. Because the guy was trading AB, he went to a team and got an offer he liked. And honestly it wasn't even a bad value deal like you make it out to be. But he's not obliged to go to every owner and say "do u want player x before I trade them". He went and got a deal he liked. U could have inquired about AB more recently(obviously something's changed from the preseason if he's selling now), but to get upset because another owner got him stinks of jealousy.
How do bad owners ruin bad leagues? With bad trades. A veto is a protection against a bad owner ruining a good league.

I don't see why you think it's about jealousy. I don't want to win because some idiot gave me Antonio Brown for free any more than I want to lose because they were given to a competitor. I quit a league this year because it was too easy, I've already decided to quit another because of trades like this. Playing Monopoly with children isn't fun, it removes all the strategy, the concept of the game only works when everyone has a decent understanding of the values. The same is true for fantasy football.
I find it very ironic that "I'm a libertatian" guy is also the guy arguing strongly in favor of trade vetos to protect bad owners from themselves and the league from unfair advantages. That's a rare Venn diagram.

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Re: What is the standard for vetoing a trade?

Postby Weeman » Mon Oct 16, 2017 11:31 pm

Your job as commissioner was to get competent owners. Why should anyone in the league suffer to see their unfair trades being vetoed? You let guys in & think the sharks aren't going to feast on them. It's FF the stats aren't at the bottom of a cereal box, you can find rankings & tips everywhere.

What poker table have you ever sat at where your competitors gave you tips on how to improve during hands? Or when someone won a pot because the guy didn't know he wasn't bluffing, they gave him his chips back.

Unreal...

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Re: What is the standard for vetoing a trade?

Postby Triton85 » Tue Oct 17, 2017 6:46 am

I'm dealing with a redraft keeper league in which the commissioner is the type to Veto any trade that makes a team in his division better regardless of future keeper value etc. It honestly has ruined the league to the point where multiple owners are discussing leaving it at the same time

Now in Dynasty I think its a little different, other than collusion - ie (5 superstars for 5 bottom dwellers type trades) i don't think vetoing is even a discussion. In our league trades are instant, and unless 8 players in the league protest (10 team league) it doesn't even get a 2nd look.

Earlier this year I traded Trubisky for Mahomes, while at the time people are looking at the trade as lopsided - Mahomes has yet to play and Trubisky seems to be doing decent in Chicago, so only time will tell


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