Tarik Cohen is too small to be successful

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Re: Tarik Cohen is too small to be successful

Postby Oddball456 » Tue Sep 12, 2017 6:47 am

lukkynumber13 wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:17 am
If he can become Sproles or even Riddick, I'll be thrilled. Held him since training camp just in case, and now I think he may be my RB3!
I am playing Cohen as my RB2 this week ahead of Gore and Mixon. PPR + return yards. Will he have a long career in the NFL? I wouldn't bet on it. But the Bears made it a point to get him the ball early and often, so I will ride it out while it lasts! I do agree with what others have said, he did a good job avoiding big hits so far.

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Re: Tarik Cohen is too small to be successful

Postby Bot101 » Tue Sep 12, 2017 10:01 pm

captain howdy wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 6:17 am
jeffster wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:03 am
captain howdy wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 3:20 pm


What does he have to do, to be "successful"?
I'm not sure what counts as "successful"... He doesn't have similar measurements to Theo Riddick (5'9, 201), but maybe he could pull that off. I guess I would define a level of success I don't really think Cohen can achieve and/or sustain at Riddick's. Aside from not being physically similar, their game also isn't similar - Cohen is fast, Riddick isn't - but they're both role players who should make their living in space.

What would his advocates consider a reasonable expectation of success for Cohen? Sproles?
As an advocate, I think rb3/flex/bye week fill-in, is a success. Anything above is gravy. I dont want to start him on a contender or anything, but60 catches is not unreasonable, he gets return opportunities, and rushing opportunities. The Bears did well giving him the ball in space too. He also showed an aptitude, sans one crossing route, to get low before the tackle. He only took one big blow the whole game.
He took a couple monster hits. Plus he broke several arm tackles and plowed over Trufant (not that Trufant is huge but there is quite a size difference) for his TD.

I dont get why were having this discussion. If the guy can handle playing in the NFL we should be praising the crap out of him. Not making threads of the "oh hes too small" variety to bring him down.
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Re: Tarik Cohen is too small to be successful

Postby alewilliam789 » Tue Sep 12, 2017 11:53 pm

All this talk about BMI doesn't matter shows the argument is faulty. Your argument is that height alone will stop him from being a good NFL RB. Has no merit beyond statistical probabilities. Besides a ridiculous amount of reps on the bench from Sproles, Cohen and Sproles actually match up pretty well physically and stastistcally coming out of college. Sproles had a 45th percentile BMI, Cohen a 35th percentile. Cohen ran faster and was above the 90th percentile of 40 yard dashes for RBs in Player Profilers system (Sproles was 80+ %). Both ranked atrociously in Burst Score (Measure of lower body explosion;equally weights broad jump and vertical). Cohen had a 70% college dominator to Sproles like 77th and both had elite YPC. Is his stature limiting? Of course. He won't have the same power as a 6'0" 220 lb back, but that's not his role.

Also to say that cleats was comparing AP to Cohen is obviously faulty. Example was going to show that players with a similar build (BMI measures muscle distributed over ones entire stature and how well that particular frame can hold that weight) have come into the league and been successful. Also not how sure that BMI is still accurate anymore because AP is yolked, but if anything that again just shows that with a proper work ethic players can add muscle mass and increase BMI in order to increase the longevity of their career.
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Re: Tarik Cohen is too small to be successful

Postby jeffster » Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:22 am

alewilliam789 wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 11:53 pm
All this talk about BMI doesn't matter shows the argument is faulty. Your argument is that height alone will stop him from being a good NFL RB.
That was definitely not my argument.
alewilliam789 wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 11:53 pm
Has no merit beyond statistical probabilities.
Yes, that's what we're talking about. Probability of success.
alewilliam789 wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 11:53 pm
Also to say that cleats was comparing AP to Cohen is obviously faulty. Example was going to show that players with a similar build (BMI measures muscle distributed over ones entire stature and how well that particular frame can hold that weight) have come into the league and been successful.
That's a Cohen comparison to AP that you just did, too.

For what it's worth, the Bears, and especially Zach Miller, don't buy my argument either:

http://www.csnchicago.com/chicago-bears ... e-changing

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Re: Tarik Cohen is too small to be successful

Postby _yeti » Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:40 am

Bot101 wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 10:01 pm
He took a couple monster hits. Plus he broke several arm tackles and plowed over Trufant (not that Trufant is huge but there is quite a size difference) for his TD.

I dont get why were having this discussion. If the guy can handle playing in the NFL we should be praising the crap out of him. Not making threads of the "oh hes too small" variety to bring him down.
I think it's important to note the context he "plowed over Trufant" in. It was on the goalline alone in the flat. Cohen chopped his feet to prepare to juke, which would be the expected move from a player like him. With Trufant having to stop him right there with no room for error, he also broke down in order to be a able to move laterally left or right to match Cohen. Cohen then dropped his shoulder into Trufant who now had no forward drive and just grabbed on.

It's not a bad play and it still shows he can play with strength but it isn't like they hit each other with matching momentum. Trufant was screwed in the open field with a little guy like that and knew that if he cut hard either way he likely couldn't stop him from getting one yard.

Also, the thread isn't to denigrate him, it's to debate how much of an impact someone so small can have over a long time. It's the dynasty discussion thread, this is exactly the kind of debate it's here for. Even people who say his size will be limiting note that he is an impressive football player.
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Re: Tarik Cohen is too small to be successful

Postby jeffster » Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:52 am

_yeti wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:40 am
Bot101 wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 10:01 pm
He took a couple monster hits. Plus he broke several arm tackles and plowed over Trufant (not that Trufant is huge but there is quite a size difference) for his TD.

I dont get why were having this discussion. If the guy can handle playing in the NFL we should be praising the crap out of him. Not making threads of the "oh hes too small" variety to bring him down.
I think it's important to note the context he "plowed over Trufant" in. It was on the goalline alone in the flat. Cohen chopped his feet to prepare to juke, which would be the expected move from a player like him. With Trufant having to stop him right there with no room for error, he also broke down in order to be a able to move laterally left or right to match Cohen. Cohen then dropped his shoulder into Trufant who now had no forward drive and just grabbed on.

It's not a bad play and it still shows he can play with strength but it isn't like they hit each other with matching momentum. Trufant was screwed in the open field with a little guy like that and knew that if he cut hard either way he likely couldn't stop him from getting one yard.

Also, the thread isn't to denigrate him, it's to debate how much of an impact someone so small can have over a long time. It's the dynasty discussion thread, this is exactly the kind of debate it's here for. Even people who say his size will be limiting note that he is an impressive football player.
Thanks, yeah. It would actually be super exciting if this tiny guy could excell in today's NFL. I would like to see it.

I just think we're unlikely to.

One article I read even suggested that Chicago deliberately didn't throw to Cohen in preseason so other teams didn't get advanced tape on what to look out for. That seems like a red flag, like his game was depending on not being schemed against. Well, they have tape now.

Granted, teams hide stuff all the time. But not usually to the extent of keeping a rookie out of preseason action.

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Re: Tarik Cohen is too small to be successful

Postby Reljac » Wed Sep 13, 2017 6:08 am

Bot101 wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 10:01 pm
He took a couple monster hits. Plus he broke several arm tackles and plowed over Trufant (not that Trufant is huge but there is quite a size difference) for his TD.
I don't call this a monster hit. He was able to see it coming and squared his shoulder. it was a hard hit, but very clean hit where the pads take the brunt of the impact. Hardly the type of hit that results in an injury and more likely a standard hit in the NFL.
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Re: Tarik Cohen is too small to be successful

Postby Phaded » Wed Sep 13, 2017 6:28 am

Reljac wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 6:08 am
Bot101 wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 10:01 pm
He took a couple monster hits. Plus he broke several arm tackles and plowed over Trufant (not that Trufant is huge but there is quite a size difference) for his TD.
I don't call this a monster hit. He was able to see it coming and squared his shoulder. it was a hard hit, but very clean hit where the pads take the brunt of the impact. Hardly the type of hit that results in an injury and more likely a standard hit in the NFL.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qaf5Ez9mHnU
But at the same time - it bodes well for him that he knows how to position himself and use his pads to take an incoming hit.
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Re: Tarik Cohen is too small to be successful

Postby dynastyninja » Wed Sep 13, 2017 6:36 am

Cohen passes the eye test. He likely won't ever be one of the most valuable dynasty backs, but he is clearly good enough to have a role. Some of the negativity in this thread surprises me.
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Re: Tarik Cohen is too small to be successful

Postby kybourbon » Wed Sep 13, 2017 6:59 am

How much of a $1000/season allowance would you bid on him?

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Re: Tarik Cohen is too small to be successful

Postby Reljac » Wed Sep 13, 2017 7:03 am

kybourbon wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 6:59 am
How much of a $1000/season allowance would you bid on him?
Depends on league build....... non-ppr, .5-ppr, and full ppr. The less ppr, the less his potential ceiling is.
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Re: Tarik Cohen is too small to be successful

Postby kybourbon » Wed Sep 13, 2017 7:47 am

Reljac wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 7:03 am
kybourbon wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 6:59 am
How much of a $1000/season allowance would you bid on him?
Depends on league build....... non-ppr, .5-ppr, and full ppr. The less ppr, the less his potential ceiling is.
Full PPR.

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Re: Tarik Cohen is too small to be successful

Postby Reljac » Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:02 am

My guess is you will have to Bid a large portion of that budget then. Very few backs will see 12 targets. If he gets anywhere close to that regularly he would be PPR gold and people will be willing to gamble on that, especially given the lack of WRs and playmakers on the Bears.
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Re: Tarik Cohen is too small to be successful

Postby Vcize » Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:04 am

Reljac wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 6:08 am
Bot101 wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 10:01 pm
He took a couple monster hits. Plus he broke several arm tackles and plowed over Trufant (not that Trufant is huge but there is quite a size difference) for his TD.
I don't call this a monster hit. He was able to see it coming and squared his shoulder. it was a hard hit, but very clean hit where the pads take the brunt of the impact. Hardly the type of hit that results in an injury and more likely a standard hit in the NFL.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qaf5Ez9mHnU
I'm pretty big on Cohen and have been sending offers out for him in all my leagues, but this is pretty silly. That's pretty much as big of a legal hit as you can take in the modern NFL.

Again, I like Cohen a lot, but the whole "he avoids big hits" take is pretty weird coming off a game where he took two pretty big hits on only 14 touches. That was probably the highest big hit to touch ratio in the entire league for RBs last week.
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Re: Tarik Cohen is too small to be successful

Postby jtd1387 » Wed Sep 13, 2017 6:12 pm

jeffster wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:52 am
_yeti wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:40 am
Bot101 wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 10:01 pm
He took a couple monster hits. Plus he broke several arm tackles and plowed over Trufant (not that Trufant is huge but there is quite a size difference) for his TD.

I dont get why were having this discussion. If the guy can handle playing in the NFL we should be praising the crap out of him. Not making threads of the "oh hes too small" variety to bring him down.
I think it's important to note the context he "plowed over Trufant" in. It was on the goalline alone in the flat. Cohen chopped his feet to prepare to juke, which would be the expected move from a player like him. With Trufant having to stop him right there with no room for error, he also broke down in order to be a able to move laterally left or right to match Cohen. Cohen then dropped his shoulder into Trufant who now had no forward drive and just grabbed on.

It's not a bad play and it still shows he can play with strength but it isn't like they hit each other with matching momentum. Trufant was screwed in the open field with a little guy like that and knew that if he cut hard either way he likely couldn't stop him from getting one yard.

Also, the thread isn't to denigrate him, it's to debate how much of an impact someone so small can have over a long time. It's the dynasty discussion thread, this is exactly the kind of debate it's here for. Even people who say his size will be limiting note that he is an impressive football player.
Thanks, yeah. It would actually be super exciting if this tiny guy could excell in today's NFL. I would like to see it.

I just think we're unlikely to.

One article I read even suggested that Chicago deliberately didn't throw to Cohen in preseason so other teams didn't get advanced tape on what to look out for. That seems like a red flag, like his game was depending on not being schemed against. Well, they have tape now.

Granted, teams hide stuff all the time. But not usually to the extent of keeping a rookie out of preseason action.
Preseason targets vs. production for a rookie is not something I have followed, but I remember the Cardinals saying they intentionally sat or didn't target (I don't remember which) Boldin as a rookie in the preseason.
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