Tarik Cohen is too small to be successful

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Re: Tarik Cohen is too small to be successful

Postby joeday » Mon Sep 11, 2017 11:06 am

If he put on 10lbs of muscle could he be a Sproles though? I mean to me that is his cap.
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Re: Tarik Cohen is too small to be successful

Postby Quint » Mon Sep 11, 2017 11:12 am

He's basically a Darren Sproles type player. Sproles came into NFL listed at 5'6", 187lb and ran a 4.46 at combine. Cohen is listed at 5'6", 179lb and ran a 4.42. Obviously depending on where you look, the weight will fluctuate a little. If Cohen is as productive as Sproles has been, that is a very useful RB in dynasty and especially PPR.

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Re: Tarik Cohen is too small to be successful

Postby Cleats » Mon Sep 11, 2017 11:26 am

It seems there may be some confusion between small and short.

Cohen is short. BMI isn't the best indicator for a RB but it's one i like to use in the overall.

Cohen has a BMI of 28.9 which is extremely close to AP at 28.6, even a bit higher.

Zeke has a BMI of 30.5
Mccoy has a BMI of 29.8

Just some quick examples, im sure there are many more that probably make this look better or worse than i describe and below:

DAT has a BMI of 25.3
Pumphrey BMI of 25.1

These guys I consider small.


Cohen has always been super talented, and electric playmaker, and played in 11, 11, 12, 12, games in college and handled 206, 222, 289, 249 touches per year without injury.

I think we probably saw his floor rushing the ball yesterday with 5-6 rushes a game, however we know he can handle more from college usage. We probably also saw his ceiling as far as targets go as well. But 12 is a good number. I highly doubt he'll ever have a top 12 season in points, however this guy has top 15 upside and will probably settle into the top 20 for a few years.

The time to get him is now, even after the big game. He's been giving the bears chunk plays since he stepped on the field day 1. They lack any kind of pass catchers that are playmakers right now, i suspect he'll get 7-8 targets a game at least and he knows what to do with them.

Don't leave him off your list because he's short. The kid can play, and will continue to see the field for the bears.

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Re: Tarik Cohen is too small to be successful

Postby JFever » Mon Sep 11, 2017 12:00 pm

Quality post Cleats. Well said.

Cohen certainly has a role in ppr. I don't think anyone is looking at him as a feature back. During bye weeks or when injuries pile up, Cohen certainly could provide some value and production. Not sure I'd break the bank for him in blind bidding dollars and I'm certainly not going to go out and offer a future 1st or 2nd after seeing one game's worth of play, but, I wouldn't dismiss him solely because he is vertically challenged.
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Re: Tarik Cohen is too small to be successful

Postby gausec » Mon Sep 11, 2017 12:27 pm

I liked what I saw yesterday, him going in the option makes me think the Bears are committing to him in some regards.
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Re: Tarik Cohen is too small to be successful

Postby ninotoreS » Mon Sep 11, 2017 1:10 pm

jeffster wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 7:35 am
Warrick Dunn is 3" taller, 187 pounds
Exactly, three inches taller. Mass spread out over a longer frame doesn't enhance durability. Did you get to my last paragraph before replying?
... and was drafted 20 years ago
Irrelevant. Players were huge and fast in the 90s, too. Show me the data proving otherwise.
Sproles seems like a better comp
Sproles is fine too. I bring up Dunn foremost because Dunn was actually a feature-back with several (good) seasons of 200+ carries.

I am of the opinion Sproles could have done what Dunn did if only a team had actually bothered to try and see if he could handle a heavy rushing load. The fact that he's 34 now and still in the league is testament to the mileage the NFL never got out of him earlier in his career. Woodhead too, incidentally; both players handled a huge load in college with aplomb, and I firmly believe could've handled 15-20 carries a week in the NFL when they were younger.

But it was never attempted, and so I put forward Dunn as the proven outlier precedent Cohen can best aspire to.
Being not-the-shortest-person-on-the-field seems like it matters quite a bit for receiving
'Quite a bit'? No. It helps the QB see the RB over the linemen running his route, but that's really it (catch-radius doesn't matter much considering how short the average depth-of-target is with RB routes). When you look at RBs that have had prolific seasons as receivers recently (70+ receptions), you get guys like Sproles (5'6"), Woodhead (5'8"), and Freeman (5'8"). Obviously height isn't a major issue for pass-catching RBs.
all else equal
Not equal at all. Haven't you ever noticed that RBs that are too tall usually don't succeed long-term in the NFL? In terms of pure ball-carrying, being short is only a benefit. The defense has more trouble seeing the RB at the line-of-scrimmage if he's short. If you read about the careers of guys like MJD and Rice, and now new guys like Freeman, a common refrain is that tacklers had/have trouble keeping them in sight at the first-level.
Obviously none of Cohen's handicaps are impossible to overcome on their own. But all three together is, as I pointed out, unprecedented.
Dunn was unprecedented. But you're wrong on the height being an actual handicap. Height in and of itself is a red herring. It's just the mass, dude. It's only the mass. Cohen gets up to near 190 (with muscle, ofc, not fat), and I firmly believe he'll have the mass at 5'6" necessary to start in the NFL. The play-strength would improve in parallel (this is what bench-reps are really trying to measure, btw).
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Re: Tarik Cohen is too small to be successful

Postby jeffster » Mon Sep 11, 2017 1:38 pm

On what grounds do you think BMI is an important stat, at all? I mean, cleats just suggested that Cohen and AP are similar. Shouldn't that raise a huge alarm?

He's historically small. The argument seems to be that he's light, but it's okay because he's short too? If that's the case, where are all the other RBs at 5'6, 179 pounds? Shouldn't there be more than I can count on my fingers in the last 18 years?

Would it be better if he was 5'5?

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Re: Tarik Cohen is too small to be successful

Postby Ryantacular » Mon Sep 11, 2017 2:11 pm

jeffster wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 1:38 pm
On what grounds do you think BMI is an important stat, at all? I mean, cleats just suggested that Cohen and AP are similar. Shouldn't that raise a huge alarm?

He's historically small. The argument seems to be that he's light, but it's okay because he's short too? If that's the case, where are all the other RBs at 5'6, 179 pounds? Shouldn't there be more than I can count on my fingers in the last 18 years?

Would it be better if he was 5'5?
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Re: Tarik Cohen is too small to be successful

Postby captain howdy » Mon Sep 11, 2017 3:20 pm

jeffster wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 1:38 pm
On what grounds do you think BMI is an important stat, at all? I mean, cleats just suggested that Cohen and AP are similar. Shouldn't that raise a huge alarm?

He's historically small. The argument seems to be that he's light, but it's okay because he's short too? If that's the case, where are all the other RBs at 5'6, 179 pounds? Shouldn't there be more than I can count on my fingers in the last 18 years?

Would it be better if he was 5'5?
What does he have to do, to be "successful"?

score ff points, right?

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Re: Tarik Cohen is too small to be successful

Postby cazzie33 » Mon Sep 11, 2017 3:52 pm

Ok Spartan slappy, we get it. You're a click baiter and nothing you could see would ever change your mind. MJD was a Fake, his measurables "proved" it would be impossible to have any prolonged success at his size. Historically nobody his size had ever done the volume he did. On the other end of the spectrum Calvin should've been a bust. Only Harold Carmichael had a highly successful career @ 6'5" or taller. Historically Calvin was too tall to be considered for sustainable success. There, I proved my point .

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Re: Tarik Cohen is too small to be successful

Postby jeffster » Mon Sep 11, 2017 11:21 pm

cazzie33 wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 3:52 pm
Ok Spartan slappy, we get it. You're a click baiter and nothing you could see would ever change your mind.
Huh?

Anyway, insults aside, I think one can easily argue that being "too small" isn't the same as being "too big" in the NFL.

And MJD weighed over 30 pounds more than Cohen, and was taller by a hair.

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Re: Tarik Cohen is too small to be successful

Postby jeffster » Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:03 am

captain howdy wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 3:20 pm
jeffster wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 1:38 pm
On what grounds do you think BMI is an important stat, at all? I mean, cleats just suggested that Cohen and AP are similar. Shouldn't that raise a huge alarm?

He's historically small. The argument seems to be that he's light, but it's okay because he's short too? If that's the case, where are all the other RBs at 5'6, 179 pounds? Shouldn't there be more than I can count on my fingers in the last 18 years?

Would it be better if he was 5'5?
What does he have to do, to be "successful"?
I'm not sure what counts as "successful"... He doesn't have similar measurements to Theo Riddick (5'9, 201), but maybe he could pull that off. I guess I would define a level of success I don't really think Cohen can achieve and/or sustain at Riddick's. Aside from not being physically similar, their game also isn't similar - Cohen is fast, Riddick isn't - but they're both role players who should make their living in space.

What would his advocates consider a reasonable expectation of success for Cohen? Sproles?

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Re: Tarik Cohen is too small to be successful

Postby lukkynumber13 » Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:17 am

If he can become Sproles or even Riddick, I'll be thrilled. Held him since training camp just in case, and now I think he may be my RB3!
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Re: Tarik Cohen is too small to be successful

Postby captain howdy » Tue Sep 12, 2017 6:17 am

jeffster wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:03 am
captain howdy wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 3:20 pm
jeffster wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 1:38 pm
On what grounds do you think BMI is an important stat, at all? I mean, cleats just suggested that Cohen and AP are similar. Shouldn't that raise a huge alarm?

He's historically small. The argument seems to be that he's light, but it's okay because he's short too? If that's the case, where are all the other RBs at 5'6, 179 pounds? Shouldn't there be more than I can count on my fingers in the last 18 years?

Would it be better if he was 5'5?
What does he have to do, to be "successful"?
I'm not sure what counts as "successful"... He doesn't have similar measurements to Theo Riddick (5'9, 201), but maybe he could pull that off. I guess I would define a level of success I don't really think Cohen can achieve and/or sustain at Riddick's. Aside from not being physically similar, their game also isn't similar - Cohen is fast, Riddick isn't - but they're both role players who should make their living in space.

What would his advocates consider a reasonable expectation of success for Cohen? Sproles?
As an advocate, I think rb3/flex/bye week fill-in, is a success. Anything above is gravy. I dont want to start him on a contender or anything, but60 catches is not unreasonable, he gets return opportunities, and rushing opportunities. The Bears did well giving him the ball in space too. He also showed an aptitude, sans one crossing route, to get low before the tackle. He only took one big blow the whole game.

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Re: Tarik Cohen is too small to be successful

Postby captain howdy » Tue Sep 12, 2017 6:17 am

jeffster wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:03 am
captain howdy wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 3:20 pm
jeffster wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 1:38 pm
On what grounds do you think BMI is an important stat, at all? I mean, cleats just suggested that Cohen and AP are similar. Shouldn't that raise a huge alarm?

He's historically small. The argument seems to be that he's light, but it's okay because he's short too? If that's the case, where are all the other RBs at 5'6, 179 pounds? Shouldn't there be more than I can count on my fingers in the last 18 years?

Would it be better if he was 5'5?
What does he have to do, to be "successful"?
I'm not sure what counts as "successful"... He doesn't have similar measurements to Theo Riddick (5'9, 201), but maybe he could pull that off. I guess I would define a level of success I don't really think Cohen can achieve and/or sustain at Riddick's. Aside from not being physically similar, their game also isn't similar - Cohen is fast, Riddick isn't - but they're both role players who should make their living in space.

What would his advocates consider a reasonable expectation of success for Cohen? Sproles?
As an advocate, I think rb3/flex/bye week fill-in, is a success. Anything above is gravy. I dont want to start him on a contender or anything, but60 catches is not unreasonable, he gets return opportunities, and rushing opportunities. The Bears did well giving him the ball in space too. He also showed an aptitude, sans one crossing route, to get low before the tackle. He only took one big blow the whole game.


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