Cooper Kupp - Value Up?

[Valhalla]

Randy was stuck in Oakland for a stretch and played with a lot of garbage qbs aside from Brady and Culpepper's good stretch (made a lot better by just bombing it to Randy).
Rice went from Montana to Young to Garcia to Gannon...right?

It's easy to stay committed when your significant other is a 9-10. Randy and his career QB rotation would be like putting a guy in a speed dating room while a bunch of heavily...flawed for lack of a better word...girls keep sitting down in front of him for a quick get to know you, and then they get up and leave and another one takes their seat. There are a couple beauties in the room but as soon as the guy gets into a comfortable swing with them they are shuffled down to the next table and a new girl takes their place. Then you ask: "Why couldn't this guy show as much commitment as the guy with long term-relationships with awesome girls?"
The glaring flaw with this argument is...Randy was FORCED to date those heavily flawed ones. A lot of them.

[Valhalla]

None of this really matters, of course, because Cooper Kupp WILL BE the goat.
Just trying to get things back on the proper subject. My fault, Kupp fans

[Friction]

That Rice/Moss convo reminds me too much of the MJ/Lebronze arguments, eerily similar. I need to login to ESPNTMZ so i can read about politics and racial issues to clear my head now. As far as Kupp goes, LA will be an interesting wr situation as usual. I just dont believe in woods being any more than who he is, at best, and Sammy will flash his teasing glimpses of greatness. Tavon will tavon, so that at least leaves some opportunity besides the TEs one would think. I really want to buy in to Kupp is a solid WR2 in the future, i do. LA has just damaged the fantasy world in recent years that it is hard to look past.

[Shoreline Steamers]

That Rice/Moss convo reminds me too much of the MJ/Lebronze arguments, eerily similar. I need to login to ESPNTMZ so i can read about politics and racial issues to clear my head now. As far as Kupp goes, LA will be an interesting wr situation as usual. I just dont believe in woods being any more than who he is, at best, and Sammy will flash his teasing glimpses of greatness. Tavon will tavon, so that at least leaves some opportunity besides the TEs one would think. I really want to buy in to Kupp is a solid WR2 in the future, i do. LA has just damaged the fantasy world in recent years that it is hard to look past.

And I think you nailed an important part of the equation. As I said earlier, Kupp is very good at playing football, even though he doesn't check all the boxes for the metrics crowd. And he's small-school.

If he was doing this, and playing for New England (or insert winning franchise of your choice) he'd be getting more love than he is. Kupp will be a guy people will be thumping their chest about in a few months saying, "Look at that WR steal I made in the 3rd-round of my draft!"

[ninotoreS]

Moss had a cheat-code. Like Calvin Johnson and Julio Jones.

But Rice was elite for nearly 20 straight years, with a 92-1211-7 line in his 18th friggin' season. In Oakland. Following a 83-1139-9 line in his 17th season. In Oakland. So don't claim Rice's greatness was dependent on situation. Of course we know Montana and Young were amazing, but Rice kept destroying the league in the weeks with luminaries like Jeff Kemp and Elvis Grbac throwing him the ball, and those last two seasons in Oakland were with Rich Gannon. Besides... how do we know Montana and Young don't owe their careers to Rice just as much as Rice owes his to theirs?

Don't claim he benefited from his era, because back in the 80s-90s NFL offenses ran the ball more than they do now (Montana never had even one 4k passing yardage season, Young only had two, the only one Gannon ever got was with Rice as his #1), and also don't claim Rice beat less athletic cornerbacks, considering the lines he put up in games against Deion Sanders. Anyone really believe Primetime wouldn't be the league's best cover corner today if he were 25?

[Nanananananana]

White Rice had 6 for 70 not bad.

That's a very Landry/ Crowder line.

[Valhalla]

White Rice had 6 for 70 not bad.

That's a very Landry/ Crowder line.

In the first half, though, right?

So that puts him on a pace for 12 receptions, 140 yards and 2 TDs for the game. That's 192 receptions for 2,240 yards and 32 TDs across 16 games. Say he plays 20 years (he is white Rice right?) and he's in for a career of 3,840 receptions for 44,800 yards and 640 TDs. Keep in mind this isn't factoring in the likelihood that he improves from his rookie numbers.

[Valhalla]

Moss had a cheat-code. Like Calvin Johnson and Julio Jones.

But Rice was elite for nearly 20 straight years, with a 92-1211-7 line in his 18th friggin' season. In Oakland. Following a 83-1139-9 line in his 17th season. In Oakland. So don't claim Rice's greatness was dependent on situation.

Rice was great. He would be great today. He was unbelievable, in fact. I just think Moss was better. Also, that Oakland was an entirely different Oakland than the one Randy stepped into. A very bad Collins (53% completion rate!?!?), Marques Tuiasosopo (even worse), Andrew Walter (ugh) and Aaron Brooks (come ON). Walter and Brooks combined for 6 TDs and 21 interceptions in 2006. Brooks was arguably his best QB with 8 starts, 3 TDs, 8 INTs and a team high (for the Randy years) 57.3% completion rate. That's the BEST QB performance they could muster. But yeah, Rice did better with the Raiders, so...

Of course we know Montana and Young were amazing, but Rice kept destroying the league in the weeks with luminaries like Jeff Kemp and Elvis Grbac throwing him the ball

You're right. Rice could dominate (and did) without needing a great QB. So could (and did) Moss. Jeff George, Spergeon Wynn, Todd Bouman, etc. Moss did well with these guys. Heck he had over 1000 with 53% completion Collins. All I'm saying is this isn't really a point that Rice holds over Moss.

and those last two seasons in Oakland were with Rich Gannon.

Yeah those last two seasons were impressive, no doubt. I remembered Gannon having a very good year in Oakland so I had to go look into it.
Gannon was throwing to Jerry Rice, Tim Brown, Jerry Porter and had Charlie Garner to hand off to/dump many passes to. That must have been pretty fun for him, and explains his huge season, I suppose. Still, Gannon played very well that year and you have to give him some credit for being a capable QB. That's the worst starter Rice had to deal with, and it was pretty damn good. Moss' worst? Who to pick?

Besides... how do we know Montana and Young don't owe their careers to Rice just as much as Rice owes his to theirs?

They do, absolutely. Culpepper owes his career to Moss and it's not nearly as true the other way around.

Don't claim he benefited from his era, because back in the 80s-90s NFL offenses ran the ball more than they do now (Montana never had even one 4k passing yardage season, Young only had two, the only one Gannon ever got was with Rice as his #1)

Actually, one CAN argue that he benefited from his era. It's very simplistic to say "they ran more back then, so that made it harder on the WRs."
True, back in the 80s and 90s, the average NFL team ran more than they do now. They also didn't spread the ball around as much in the passing game, so the passing yards were often much more heavily funneled to the top couple WRs, with RBs and TEs getting on average less for targets. There were less targets and yards to go around per team, sure. Less targets and yards for a top WR on a good passing team? Not so sure.
What this heavy running style across the league also did was create a league with defenses dedicated to stopping the running backs. Team defenses weren't designed for stopping Montana to Rice. Those defenses were designed to stop Roger Craig (a phenom himself).
Just a memory of how a division rival attempted to immediately compensate for Moss: in 1999 (the offseason after Moss' rookie year) the Packers spent their first, second and third round picks on 3 new CBs. Did teams or defenses put as much into shutting down Jerry Rice? I honestly don't know.

and also don't claim Rice beat less athletic cornerbacks, considering the lines he put up in games against Deion Sanders. Anyone really believe Primetime wouldn't be the league's best cover corner today if he were 25?

Was Primetime shadowing Rice? If so, and getting consistently burned, that's impressive. He faced Primetime twice a year. Does that mean the average DBs he was facing were as good as the average DBs Moss faced 15-20 years later? I don't know. Moss was burning the top DBs in the league, as well.


I really do think you have a good argument on Rice. He was obviously a remarkable WR. Most would side with you. I'm just responding to all of your points not to refute you, but just to say it's not "Rice, case closed" as you presented your argument. I think there are very valid arguments to be had for either one being the more talented WR. I'd take Moss.

[M-Dub]

Speaking as a guy who's been a Cowboys fan since Danny White was handling punting duties, yes, it's Jerry Rice, and yes, it's not close.

Randy Moss was a superior athlete to Rice in every measurable way, no doubt, but production is what really counts, and produce is pretty much all Jerry Rice did for two decades. Honestly, I think this is one of the few positional debates that's just not close at all. We could have a lively, multi-page debate about the best QB or RB of all time, but when it comes to WR, it really just comes down to who you think is second-best. As much as I hated watching every down he played, Rice was, and still is, the GOAT.

That is, until Cooper Kupp came along...

[Valhalla]

Speaking as a guy who's been a Cowboys fan since Danny White was handling punting duties, yes, it's Jerry Rice, and yes, it's not close.

Randy Moss was a superior athlete to Rice in every measurable way, no doubt, but production is what really counts, and produce is pretty much all Jerry Rice did for two decades. Honestly, I think this is one of the few positional debates that's just not close at all. We could have a lively, multi-page debate about the best QB or RB of all time, but when it comes to WR, it really just comes down to who you think is second-best. As much as I hated watching every down he played, Rice was, and still is, the GOAT.

That is, until Cooper Kupp came along...

If production is all that really counts, then Emmitt Smith must be your GOAT RB. Nothing wrong with that, but keep it consistent.
Statistical production is, for lack of a better word, the PRODUCT of drive, health, era, self-talent, surrounding/supporting talent, etc. Probably some other stuff that's not coming to mind right now as well.

Drive - Rice probably had more drive to succeed than Moss, but we can't really know that. Also, drive can be heavily influenced by the situation(s) you are thrown into. Think of your own life. Would you have the same drive in a work environment you struggle with as one you thrive in? What if your coworkers were dragging you down? Is your drive just as high? What if your coworkers are helping you be a rockstar? Does that help your drive?

Health - Off the top of my head...they were both relatively stable guys. Rice lasted longer, though. I feel like Moss could have kept playing for years beyond his retirement, but we can't know that, so we clearly have to give the health/longevity to Rice.

Era - I argued this above and won't write it out again. Producing in different eras is very difficult to compare, but it's far too simplistic to say "less total passing equals disadvantage." Rice played in an era where defenses weren't as commonly designed to stop him. Moss played in an era where it was more common to throw more often. I don't really think you can say "this guy is better in part because he did it in this era" when there are just too many variables to compare the eras.

Self-talent - Just going on the eyeball test...but I have to say it's Moss. The guy was unreal. I'm usually the one pointing out that people don't give enough credence to the finer motions of athletics (it's not just track and field out there) and Rice had a ton of the non-track and field athleticism, like contorting his body in the air to make a tough catch, or hiding his tells/blatantly lying with his motions on the route he was about to run. He was a hell of an athlete. Moss had all that though as well, plus absurd track and field measurables. Moss could completely fool a guy with a route, make absurd adjustments in the air, and all those finer points of athleticism you want a WR to have. He could ALSO just put his hand up pre-snap signaling to EVERYONE that he wanted the QB to throw it deep, and he would be the one to zoom past and go up and get it, seemingly almost every time he raised that hand. Rice was an elite craftsman. As much as I credit the craftsmen as the superior athletes over the track and field stars, Moss was both. Also, Rice used stickum.

Surrounding/supporting talent - Rice easily got the bigger statistical boost here and it's not close. I don't think I need to lay an argument out.

[rubber_duck]

^^^ blah blah blah

Honestly, I think this is one of the few positional debates that's just not close at all. We could have a lively, multi-page debate about the best QB or RB of all time, but when it comes to WR, it really just comes down to who you think is second-best. As much as I hated watching every down he played, Rice was, and still is, the GOAT.

Yes, very well said.

[clarion contrarion]

^^^ blah blah blah

Honestly, I think this is one of the few positional debates that's just not close at all. We could have a lively, multi-page debate about the best QB or RB of all time, but when it comes to WR, it really just comes down to who you think is second-best. As much as I hated watching every down he played, Rice was, and still is, the GOAT.

Yes, very well said.

this pretty much !
you can argue all day about who the 2nd best wr ever is but much like sprint car racing there is only one greatest !
jerry rice is the steve kinser of wr - valhalla is a terrific poster but his icon belies his prejudice rice is so far in front of the rest of the wr class as to bury any comp - he did everything and moss while sensational was a one trick pony more or less .
In a day and age where fantasy managers are off loading julio or aj green because they are closing in on 30 and calvin johnson packed it in at age 30.

After age 30 jerry rice had 94 tds which is 5 more than aj green and julio have combined for thus far and would be 11th all time - 12622 yards good enough for 20th all time and more than brandon marshall thus far or hines ward & 939 catches 19th all time 1 less than art monk 2 less than brandon marshall and only 43 less than moss' career total .
You wanna argue that moss was 2nd best I can listen but saying he was better than rice ..... come on man GTFOH!

[Pancakes]

I just don't get it. Kupp is a slow slot receiver with decent hands on a LAR offense that wants run and play good defense. If they do pass, I'm not confident in Goff, and Watkins and the TEs are probably going to take most of the targets. Someone change my mind?

Anyone that did any homework on him at all 4 months ago isn't surprised. That includes people who didn't just look at his 40 time, 2nd round draft spot (I won't say "pedigree" here, very misused word) and the Rams situation and say "meh".

Asking for opinions is one thing - all the measurable Evidence of a strong prospect is a google search away.

[DJB]

Good speed. Excellent hands. Goff seems to like him and target him

[ninotoreS]

Goff seems to like him and target him

Reportedly, they've spent all offseason together. I think they have the same agent? Iirc, Goff and Kupp were practicing together before the Rams even drafted Cooper. So. Yeah. Rapport.

I just think Moss was better.

Rice had the better career and was the more dominant competitor. You just don't get to be the GOAT by putting natural talent before results. Scoreboard > potential. Otherwise Peyton Manning would be the GOAT at QB, and not Brady. Peyton as a QB did many things better than Tom Terrific and didn't need Bill Belichick to do it, but practically no one is even trying to argue him as the GOAT over Brady nowadays, because bottom-line, Brady has gotten results that Manning didn't.

We can play the what-if game endlessly, for anything. What if Moss had spent more of his career with elite teams. What if he hadn't been sent to purgatory in Oakland. What if he had been luckier with injuries and maintained his health as long as Rice did. What if, what if. If string-theory is true, I'm sure there are parallel universes where Moss is the one with fifteen 1k yard seasons and has the hand decked in Super Bowl rings. But in our universe, he isn't that guy.

Yeah those last two seasons were impressive, no doubt.

As you say, Oakland's offense that year was stacked, with Tim Brown opposite Rice. 4600 passing yards for Gannon was a pretty crazy number in the early 00s. Still, 18th season! It's mind-blowing. People were born and heading off to college in the interval between Rice's first 1k yard season and his last.

Was Primetime shadowing Rice? If so, and getting consistently burned, that's impressive.

To be fair, you're right, the Niners moved Rice all over the formation, as I recall. I don't think shutdown corners shadowed #1 WRs in those days (correct me if I'm wrong, someone).