DGB: Round 3

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Re: DGB: Round 3

Postby Dynasty DeLorean » Tue Jul 04, 2017 5:06 am

Tsunami wrote: Tue Jul 04, 2017 2:38 am I'm still a DGBeliever. It has only been two years (in two offences) which is too early to give up on a raw rookie prospect. These days some of you are so used to the instant gratification of your rookie prospect going to the Pro Bowl year 1 that you forget what this game used to be like. It is possible that it takes time to get good.
There's a difference between it taking time and being jettisoned from two teams in the first 2 years.

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Re: DGB: Round 3

Postby FiremanEd » Tue Jul 04, 2017 5:45 am

ajmyk wrote: Sun Jul 02, 2017 1:44 pm
FiremanEd wrote: Fri Jun 30, 2017 10:51 am DGB was always high risk, high reward. The issue was that a lot of people significantly underplayed the risk variable. It was astonishing seeing some of the capital invested in this guy. He had not shown nearly enough to warrant the status he was receiving either. Can't say I'm surprised at all at where he's ended up. He will get another shot though. Wouldn't surprise me if the Jets tried to give it to him. He could actually get playing time too.
Now that's not fair.
Yes, the guy was an huge risk players, and a lot of dynasty owners were cautious with him, but his failure didn't mean they were right.

He was high risk because of his off-field issues in college, and as far as we know he managed to stay away from off-field issue since the draft. His failure has nothing to do with that, it's another matter totally. I don't remember anyone refraining from drafting him as a rookie because of his low football IQ.

You may think there is a correlation between low IQ and off-field problems, but Bell and Elliott had each more off-field issues than DGB the last 2 years but they're still performed as studs and are drafted early in start up.
There was on field risk too though that people ignored. It isn't just the off field I was referring to. Everyone sees prospects differently, but I never saw what the believers did, and felt it was something of a leap of faith given what he had actually done on the field. Add in the time he was away from it, his history, and his off field risk, and regardless of how people spin it, many were taking the high ceiling view and weighing the chance of success far too high for my liking. Measurables and top HS prospect is what people saw.

In the big picture, it may not have been THAT wrong given the other options available in the range he often went, but for those taking him top 5, it was a leap of faith I wasn't comfortable with. I personally passed late 1st. I also took Kevin White...but I'm willing to classify injury impacts differently than the path DGB has taken. Outcome could well be the same though and in the end I suppose it won't matter for fantasy teams anyway.

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Re: DGB: Round 3

Postby _yeti » Tue Jul 04, 2017 8:15 am

FiremanEd wrote: Tue Jul 04, 2017 5:45 am
ajmyk wrote: Sun Jul 02, 2017 1:44 pm
FiremanEd wrote: Fri Jun 30, 2017 10:51 am DGB was always high risk, high reward. The issue was that a lot of people significantly underplayed the risk variable. It was astonishing seeing some of the capital invested in this guy. He had not shown nearly enough to warrant the status he was receiving either. Can't say I'm surprised at all at where he's ended up. He will get another shot though. Wouldn't surprise me if the Jets tried to give it to him. He could actually get playing time too.
Now that's not fair.
Yes, the guy was an huge risk players, and a lot of dynasty owners were cautious with him, but his failure didn't mean they were right.

He was high risk because of his off-field issues in college, and as far as we know he managed to stay away from off-field issue since the draft. His failure has nothing to do with that, it's another matter totally. I don't remember anyone refraining from drafting him as a rookie because of his low football IQ.

You may think there is a correlation between low IQ and off-field problems, but Bell and Elliott had each more off-field issues than DGB the last 2 years but they're still performed as studs and are drafted early in start up.
There was on field risk too though that people ignored. It isn't just the off field I was referring to. Everyone sees prospects differently, but I never saw what the believers did, and felt it was something of a leap of faith given what he had actually done on the field. Add in the time he was away from it, his history, and his off field risk, and regardless of how people spin it, many were taking the high ceiling view and weighing the chance of success far too high for my liking. Measurables and top HS prospect is what people saw.

In the big picture, it may not have been THAT wrong given the other options available in the range he often went, but for those taking him top 5, it was a leap of faith I wasn't comfortable with. I personally passed late 1st. I also took Kevin White...but I'm willing to classify injury impacts differently than the path DGB has taken. Outcome could well be the same though and in the end I suppose it won't matter for fantasy teams anyway.
I completely agree with this. I have been as big of a DGB advocate over the past couple years as anybody, but at the end of the day he is not getting it. He seems to lack the commitment and intelligence to make the transition at this point in his career. We all now as far as physical metrics go, he's got all of the goods. His bar is actually lower than most smaller guys for what he has to show and he isn't even hitting that.

I kind of have to agree with both of you because there were guys like Ed who did have football critiques, but others just jumped on the red flag bandwagon and took a hard pass without a lot of substance. I think he was a guy who could always out-run and out-jump the coverage and that was good enough at prior levels (as we all know, many athletic WRs come into the NFL with limited route trees and subpar route running ability).

He gets the hard wake-up call now that he isn't special enough to half-bleep the NFL. He has to go all-in or he's toast. This shot will make or break it. It could go either way still, though my expectations are very low and I would sell if there was any value left (there isn't right now so he's a hold).

I'll always gamble on the upside player over a safer but physically limited player if the price is right. Which, as Ed said, late first it was. Early first you can't gamble on that much uncertainty.
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Re: DGB: Round 3

Postby Cameron Giles » Tue Jul 04, 2017 4:24 pm

Tsunami wrote: Tue Jul 04, 2017 2:38 am I'm still a DGBeliever. It has only been two years (in two offences) which is too early to give up on a raw rookie prospect. These days some of you are so used to the instant gratification of your rookie prospect going to the Pro Bowl year 1 that you forget what this game used to be like. It is possible that it takes time to get good.

Terrelle Pryor had the athleticism and successfully made the transition to WR in a couple years. It took Kenny Britt 7 years to start to live up to his athleticism. People always look at the failures but I still feel it's more likely for an athletic freak like DGB to figure out the game than for someone slow like Funchess to magically become fast or someone short like Tavon Austin to magically become tall.

Where do I want him to land? The Raiders are open to giving Patterson a chance, and DGB could fill the Andre Holmes role and get a few red zone looks since they lack a receiving TE. Cleveland had a hand in Pryor's success, maybe someone there could work miracles on DGB. The easiest route to playing time might be on the Bills, Jets, Texans, Lions, Falcons, Panthers, Rams, 49ers. Out of those I would love to see him in Carolina.
You can name more WR's who bombed than late bloomers.

DGB has basically been released by two teams following OTA's. It has nothing to do with traditional WR development; he doesn't get it and never will.

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Re: DGB: Round 3

Postby Tsunami » Wed Jul 05, 2017 5:05 am

Cameron Giles wrote: Tue Jul 04, 2017 4:24 pm You can name more WR's who bombed than late bloomers.

DGB has basically been released by two teams following OTA's. It has nothing to do with traditional WR development; he doesn't get it and never will.
There is always a point with everyone who gets it when they didn't get it, that's called learning. So I don't know why popular opinion is that Josh Gordon and DGB and Johnny Manziel are worthless. Not having learned yet isn't proof that they're incapable of learning. Justin Blackmon has given up on trying, and maybe Manziel has too, and maybe Gordon and DGB aren't willing to try either, but it seems to me like they are. I still think it is more likely that they can change their attitude and learn to work than for someone without physical talents to suddenly become fast and tall. So I'll bet against never.

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Re: DGB: Round 3

Postby sloth8u » Wed Jul 05, 2017 5:44 am

id just be happy with him seeing a steady diet of targets and playing time to be honest. that way i can form an opinion. i still believe in the skillset. i had him as a potential buy this offseason, but found owners were still fairly high on him. i havent bought a share yet. i do own him on a team (i overdrafted him to ensure i had atleast 1 copy), think i took him in the 4-6 range i believe. still own him because i havent drafted anyone better to stash.

if it ever does click for him....get this guy 120 targets and he's going to produce. the big question is...will he get/deserve the opportunity. the league is filled with guys like this. i view dgb as the high end prospect in this instance. they are replaceable, and sometimes being out of the league is all you need to replace them.

i find it hard to believe that the guy has a horrible football iq, he may not take football (his job) seriously, but this dude can play football imo. its obviously going to take some maturing on his behalf, and then someone to give him an opportunity. in theory, he's going to be reaching his prime in the next year or 2 and then play through it....if he lands somewhere and can get the opportunity... i'll wait the few months....if not..the guy is dispensible imo.

its been mentioned above that not all picks pan out. for those who wanted nothing to do with him.....you didnt take him. for those who did take him....it seems like a swing and a miss right now. its only yr3, things do not look positive...but how would we feel if philly didnt add alshon and torrey?...on top of that, trading mathews.... you get the idea here. he didnt fit what they were doing, and inevitably ended up being the odd man out. there are not going to be many "prime" landing spots. san fran and the rams come to mind....but are those organizations willing to gamble with the locker room trouble, that he appears to be?

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Re: DGB: Round 3

Postby dlf_jules » Wed Jul 05, 2017 7:27 am

mullmania wrote: Fri Jun 30, 2017 10:44 am Another reminder that the highest value of your rookie draft picks is often right after their rookie season.
Fixed that for you.
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Re: DGB: Round 3

Postby edfleming » Wed Jul 05, 2017 6:51 pm

Philly fan, watched plenty of games last year and everytime I saw DGB I said to myself this guy should be playing Cornerback. He's an athletic freak but can't catch the ball - I think that's the definition of an NFL cb. Won't happen but with philly having no CBs - wish it would have. He can't catch, so I think he's done.

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Re: DGB: Round 3

Postby thebeast » Wed Jul 05, 2017 7:14 pm

Tsunami wrote: Tue Jul 04, 2017 2:38 am I'm still a DGBeliever. It has only been two years (in two offences) which is too early to give up on a raw rookie prospect. These days some of you are so used to the instant gratification of your rookie prospect going to the Pro Bowl year 1 that you forget what this game used to be like. It is possible that it takes time to get good.

Terrelle Pryor had the athleticism and successfully made the transition to WR in a couple years. It took Kenny Britt 7 years to start to live up to his athleticism. People always look at the failures but I still feel it's more likely for an athletic freak like DGB to figure out the game than for someone slow like Funchess to magically become fast or someone short like Tavon Austin to magically become tall.

Where do I want him to land? The Raiders are open to giving Patterson a chance, and DGB could fill the Andre Holmes role and get a few red zone looks since they lack a receiving TE. Cleveland had a hand in Pryor's success, maybe someone there could work miracles on DGB. The easiest route to playing time might be on the Bills, Jets, Texans, Lions, Falcons, Panthers, Rams, 49ers. Out of those I would love to see him in Carolina.
Jonathan Baldwin, Stephen Hill...

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Re: DGB: Round 3

Postby ericanadian » Wed Jul 05, 2017 7:29 pm

He cleared waivers. Given his contract, that's not a great sign. He's going to need to fight his way up a depth chart. Given his attitude issues, I don't think he has that fight in him.
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Re: DGB: Round 3

Postby dm1129 » Wed Jul 05, 2017 7:57 pm

ericanadian wrote: Wed Jul 05, 2017 7:29 pm He cleared waivers. Given his contract, that's not a great sign. He's going to need to fight his way up a depth chart. Given his attitude issues, I don't think he has that fight in him.
Exactly. The reality is he never has been a very good WR and the entire NFL just confirmed that. Time to move on.

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Re: DGB: Round 3

Postby rubber_duck » Thu Jul 06, 2017 7:40 am

Parts of this thread reads like so many others on this forum; this player has all the physical tools, if he could just ...

The funny part of this DGB conversation is that this same forum had hashed through all of this long before most leagues had their 2015 rookie drafts. The "problem" is that the conversation was in a little read part of the forum: College/Prep Scouting.

This isn't an "I told you so" thing. This is a push to get more activity on that part of the forum, especially scouting the high profile players during the season. Waiting to evaluate until the NFL draft process gets going means the conversation about a prospect gets clouded and confused. When a solid conversation gets started a year or more before the player is eligible for the draft, then there is a good chance for a calm and clear evaluation of the talent on & off the field.

We would all benefit from more solid threads on the current sophomores and juniors. We don't all have to be experts on every college player entering the draft. Wouldn't it be nice to have a detailed thread on many of the high profile prospects? One that was generated by a few forum members that delved deep into that particular prospect.

(stepping down from the box)

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Re: DGB: Round 3

Postby btv802 » Thu Jul 06, 2017 9:00 am

Still holding...but maybe not for long. When you have a crap roster and are in a deep-ish league, kinda becomes a thing of, "who else is really out there on waivers that's worth adding at this point in the offseason". I'm fine with DGB sitting at the end of my roster until next season when my 1st & 2nd round rookie picks will likely bump him off.
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Re: DGB: Round 3

Postby Kcarr » Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:03 pm

mullmania wrote: Fri Jun 30, 2017 10:44 am Another reminder that the highest value of your rookie draft picks is often on draft day.
He is actually proof to the contrary. His highest value was between the end of his first season and the trade to philly
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Re: DGB: Round 3

Postby _yeti » Fri Jul 07, 2017 5:42 am

rubber_duck wrote: Thu Jul 06, 2017 7:40 am Parts of this thread reads like so many others on this forum; this player has all the physical tools, if he could just ...

The funny part of this DGB conversation is that this same forum had hashed through all of this long before most leagues had their 2015 rookie drafts. The "problem" is that the conversation was in a little read part of the forum: College/Prep Scouting.

This isn't an "I told you so" thing. This is a push to get more activity on that part of the forum, especially scouting the high profile players during the season. Waiting to evaluate until the NFL draft process gets going means the conversation about a prospect gets clouded and confused. When a solid conversation gets started a year or more before the player is eligible for the draft, then there is a good chance for a calm and clear evaluation of the talent on & off the field.

We would all benefit from more solid threads on the current sophomores and juniors. We don't all have to be experts on every college player entering the draft. Wouldn't it be nice to have a detailed thread on many of the high profile prospects? One that was generated by a few forum members that delved deep into that particular prospect.

(stepping down from the box)
I found this to be a little self-righteous and off-base. DGB was an EXTREMELY unique situation where he was the #1 high school athlete, was kicked out school for arrests, and then still had college production and combine metrics along with the intangible of being 6'5. What would have more debate in a college thread have done?

People who say I told you so, I knew he couldn't make it are not truly able to say that with certainty ahead of time and are reveling in hindsight. He hasn't even fully failed yet. And I know you said your post isn't about 'I told you so,' 1) that's how it reads, and 2) many of us do not have the time to devote to being degenerates when it comes to college AND the pros. My wife would kill me. I love red flag prospects with size, metrics, and actual football ability. I was a beliver of DGB and Karlos Williams and after their 2015 seasons I was saying I told you so. Then the off-field component came back to bite me. This is the game we play. There was no certainty they would screw up again and they have shown they have the ability to produce in the NFL if given the chance.

TLDR: A long detailed thread on DGB as a prospect would be have yielded no insights we didn't repeat ad nauseum in this subforum.
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12 Team SF, PPR, TE Prem., DT prem., IDP Start 10, QB, 1SF, 2-4 RB, 2-5 WR, 1-3 TE, 2DL, 2LB, 2DB, 1 IDPflex
QB: J. Fields, B. Mayfield, G. Smith, M. Mariota, S. Darnold
RB: T. Etienne, T. Pollard, S. Barkley, J.Jacobs A. Jones, , A. Gibson, D. Harris, Z. Moss, E. Elliott
WR: G. Wilson, T. Higgins, T. McLaurin C. Kirk, D. Hopkins, K. Toney. K. Osborn, M. Hardman
TE: T.J. Hockenson, K. Pitts, H. Henry
DL: M. Parsons, Q. Williams, D. Buckner, R. Gary
LB: F. Oluokun, R. Smith, A. Anzalone. L. David
DB: B. Baker, J. Metellus, R. Grant


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