DGB: Round 3

[rubber_duck]

You sound very angry about something. Wish I could help with that.

Yes, DGB was unique just like any snowflake is. The same can be said about each and every prospect, that they have a unique set of circumstances. But that wasn't the point.

The point is to improve our method of prospect analysis. To take a critical look at the successes and failures. To repeat the aspects of the successful evaluations, and to identify why the failures occurred. To create a repeatable system to sort the morass of data on a prospect and eliminate the noise that confuses the analysis. This sort of thing isn't for everyone.

[_yeti]

Isn't that what the NFL does for the NFL draft process? Some weekend warriors are going to do it better because they started the thread while the player is in college? What system would have identified anything differently about DGB than we already knew at draft time if more of us talked about it earlier? Please explain?

[rubber_duck]

Use of the NFL draft for player evaluation could be a thread, or a long formal study, in itself.

Taking the NFL draft results as a 1st pass sorting of player rankings is certainly a sound approach. However, the fantasy community consistently deviates from the NFL draft order when ranking rookies (e.g. Mixon in frequently ranked as the #2 or #3 RB prospect.) So we do implicitly understand that the "NFL draft process" can be improved upon for use in the fantasy world.

The NFL draft and all of the accompanying chatter (ESPN, blogs, vlogs, podcasts, etc) have some very good data and a lot of non-information that can cloud the analysis. The advanced metrics movement is trying to show that all of the soft information can be disregarded, and a complete analysis can be made strictly based on hard data. Count me as a skeptic of that, but there is some very good work being done in that area.

The true data that the NFL draft process provides can be gotten at in a layered approach. To start with, the first pass information available includes:
- Overall draft pick used to acquire player. For DGB the pick used was 2.08.
- Drafted rank within that player's position. For DGB, he was the 8th WR selected.
- Team (and front office) that selected the player. Tennessee.

Second Pass information:
- Teams (front offices) that selected WRs ahead of the player.
- Did the team (front office) trade up to select him?
- Total number of players at that position selected in the "relevant" rounds.

Getting Deep:
- Teams (front offices) that selected WRs after the player that had passed on him before, again "relevant" rounds apply.
- Teams that selected WRs after the player that had traded away any picks prior to the player being selected, again "relevant" rounds apply.
- Gap in draft picks from when the player was selected to when the next "few" players of the same position are selected.

When doing a deeper analysis it may also be possible to include the general competence of the front office. The weighting of this screening can be somewhat based on the amount of available information on the front office. In the case of DGB the Titan's front office had been in place since 2012. It had a short history of ineffective use of high draft picks for the offensive skill positions. In direct contrast, the Pittsburgh Steelers have a long history to draw off of.

Again, this could (and maybe should) be a thread of its own.

[themburns]

Yes, DGB was unique just like any snowflake is. The same can be said about each and every prospect, that they have a unique set of circumstances. But that wasn't the point.

The point is to improve our method of prospect analysis. To take a critical look at the successes and failures. To repeat the aspects of the successful evaluations, and to identify why the failures occurred. To create a repeatable system to sort the morass of data on a prospect and eliminate the noise that confuses the analysis. This sort of thing isn't for everyone.

How does one create a repeatable system to "eliminate the noise" when the questions our main questions with a prospect are motivational or behaviorally based? As you state, DGB is a unique prospect just like every other. His failure is his own. I don't feel there is any way with the tools and information we have to make any kind of informed decision in a systemic way from individual data points like this, without resorting to recency bias and the inherent prejudices that each of us have and to one degree or another and cannot separate ourselves from. We have to be cautious from taking too much information from a single case study or data point, especially from our role as observers in this process. The Titans not only interviewed DGB, but they vetted him too. They had a broader understanding of his character and still felt he was worth the risk. Just like some dynasty owners did.

I feel that analytic models can be crafted and honed to give us a line of best fit, but those individual points will always be scatterred.

[Dynasty DeLorean]

I thought DGB was worth spending a late-1st/early-2nd on, but for educational purposes let's examine the false narratives about DGB;

- Was he really talented? No, he wasn't. He was bigger and faster than everyone else so he succeeded in college, but he never displayed any type of nuance to the position. Most if not all scouting reports confirm this notion.

- Was he an athletic freak? No, not really. DGB was big and fast, and by most standards that will qualify a person as being very athletic. However his agility was poor, his leaping ability was poor, and his SPARQx was poor. He's plenty athletic by any normal standard, but an athletic freak by NFL standards? Not even close. Not to mention he had short arms (32 1/2") and small hands (9") for his size (6'5").

- Was his head on straight? Apparently not. I remember people posting all these fluff pieces here about him turning his life around, swearing by them as concrete evidence DGB left his past completely behind. Of course we only know this via hindsight, however I think people either forget or don't realize that a person legitimately turning their life around is a very rare occurrence and isn't really something you should be betting on.

[themburns]

I thought DGB was worth spending a late-1st/early-2nd on, but for educational purposes let's examine the false narratives about DGB;

- Was he really talented? No, he wasn't. He was bigger and faster than everyone else so he succeeded in college, but he never displayed any type of nuance to the position. Most if not all scouting reports confirm this notion.

- Was he an athletic freak? No, not really. DGB was big and fast, and by most standards that will qualify a person as being very athletic. However his agility was poor, his leaping ability was poor, and his SPARQx was poor. He's plenty athletic by any normal standard, but an athletic freak by NFL standards? Not even close. Not to mention he had short arms (32 1/2") and small hands (9") for his size (6'5").

- Was his head on straight? Apparently not. I remember people posting all these fluff pieces here about him turning his life around, swearing by them as concrete evidence DGB left his past completely behind. Of course we only know this via hindsight, however I think people either forget or don't realize that a person legitimately turning their life around is a very rare occurrence and isn't really something you should be betting on.

It's revisionist and convenient to say he was never talented. I've never owned a share of him on any dynasty team but seriously. He put up 12 TDs in his age 20 season against SEC competition. Then he's thrown out of school and Oklahoma rolls out the red carpet for him, despite knowing he'd probably never play a down for them. That's the DGB scouts were looking at. One who, if he had put his mind to it, had the resources available at Oklahoma to learn some of those skills.

It's anathema to a front office's job security to take a player 40 overall one year and bail for practically nothing the next. So much so that, most administrations would rather keep them around for two years at least, just to make sure they're not moving on too quickly. But yet, not here. That suggests to me it was motivational, that they felt having him around was detrimental to team cohesion. The list of players with measurables less than DGB that were given all the chances in the world by both the NFL teams and dynasty communities is long. Here are the rookie years of three recent players. One is DGB.

32 catches/444 yards/13.9 yards per catch/3 TDs
32 catches/549 yards/17.2 yards per catch/4 TDs
45 catches/562 yards/12.5/ yards per catch/2 TDs

We're looking at Donte Moncrief, Dorial Green Beckham, and Michael Floyd's rookie years. You could pick players with better rookie years than the two I'm comparing him to here, but the point I'm trying to make is that there is more evidence pointing to the problem being DGB's work ethic and desire to succeed. It's evident that he doesn't care. So whatever you may think of his gifts, he's not going to be utilizing them.

[Dynasty DeLorean]

I thought DGB was worth spending a late-1st/early-2nd on, but for educational purposes let's examine the false narratives about DGB;

- Was he really talented? No, he wasn't. He was bigger and faster than everyone else so he succeeded in college, but he never displayed any type of nuance to the position. Most if not all scouting reports confirm this notion.

- Was he an athletic freak? No, not really. DGB was big and fast, and by most standards that will qualify a person as being very athletic. However his agility was poor, his leaping ability was poor, and his SPARQx was poor. He's plenty athletic by any normal standard, but an athletic freak by NFL standards? Not even close. Not to mention he had short arms (32 1/2") and small hands (9") for his size (6'5").

- Was his head on straight? Apparently not. I remember people posting all these fluff pieces here about him turning his life around, swearing by them as concrete evidence DGB left his past completely behind. Of course we only know this via hindsight, however I think people either forget or don't realize that a person legitimately turning their life around is a very rare occurrence and isn't really something you should be betting on.

It's revisionist and convenient to say he was never talented.

Lol no it's not, I posted as much on this very forum before he was drafted. Lance Zierleins scouting report said the same thing. Hes big, fast with decent hands that is bad in every other aspect of being a WR.

[thebeast]

Use of the NFL draft for player evaluation could be a thread, or a long formal study, in itself.

Taking the NFL draft results as a 1st pass sorting of player rankings is certainly a sound approach. However, the fantasy community consistently deviates from the NFL draft order when ranking rookies (e.g. Mixon in frequently ranked as the #2 or #3 RB prospect.) So we do implicitly understand that the "NFL draft process" can be improved upon for use in the fantasy world.

The NFL draft and all of the accompanying chatter (ESPN, blogs, vlogs, podcasts, etc) have some very good data and a lot of non-information that can cloud the analysis. The advanced metrics movement is trying to show that all of the soft information can be disregarded, and a complete analysis can be made strictly based on hard data. Count me as a skeptic of that, but there is some very good work being done in that area.

The true data that the NFL draft process provides can be gotten at in a layered approach. To start with, the first pass information available includes:
- Overall draft pick used to acquire player. For DGB the pick used was 2.08.
- Drafted rank within that player's position. For DGB, he was the 8th WR selected.
- Team (and front office) that selected the player. Tennessee.

Second Pass information:
- Teams (front offices) that selected WRs ahead of the player.
- Did the team (front office) trade up to select him?
- Total number of players at that position selected in the "relevant" rounds.

Getting Deep:
- Teams (front offices) that selected WRs after the player that had passed on him before, again "relevant" rounds apply.
- Teams that selected WRs after the player that had traded away any picks prior to the player being selected, again "relevant" rounds apply.
- Gap in draft picks from when the player was selected to when the next "few" players of the same position are selected.

When doing a deeper analysis it may also be possible to include the general competence of the front office. The weighting of this screening can be somewhat based on the amount of available information on the front office. In the case of DGB the Titan's front office had been in place since 2012. It had a short history of ineffective use of high draft picks for the offensive skill positions. In direct contrast, the Pittsburgh Steelers have a long history to draw off of.

Again, this could (and maybe should) be a thread of its own.

Nice post

[_yeti]

Use of the NFL draft for player evaluation could be a thread, or a long formal study, in itself.

Taking the NFL draft results as a 1st pass sorting of player rankings is certainly a sound approach. However, the fantasy community consistently deviates from the NFL draft order when ranking rookies (e.g. Mixon in frequently ranked as the #2 or #3 RB prospect.) So we do implicitly understand that the "NFL draft process" can be improved upon for use in the fantasy world.

The NFL draft and all of the accompanying chatter (ESPN, blogs, vlogs, podcasts, etc) have some very good data and a lot of non-information that can cloud the analysis. The advanced metrics movement is trying to show that all of the soft information can be disregarded, and a complete analysis can be made strictly based on hard data. Count me as a skeptic of that, but there is some very good work being done in that area.

The true data that the NFL draft process provides can be gotten at in a layered approach. To start with, the first pass information available includes:
- Overall draft pick used to acquire player. For DGB the pick used was 2.08.
- Drafted rank within that player's position. For DGB, he was the 8th WR selected.
- Team (and front office) that selected the player. Tennessee.

Second Pass information:
- Teams (front offices) that selected WRs ahead of the player.
- Did the team (front office) trade up to select him?
- Total number of players at that position selected in the "relevant" rounds.

Getting Deep:
- Teams (front offices) that selected WRs after the player that had passed on him before, again "relevant" rounds apply.
- Teams that selected WRs after the player that had traded away any picks prior to the player being selected, again "relevant" rounds apply.
- Gap in draft picks from when the player was selected to when the next "few" players of the same position are selected.

When doing a deeper analysis it may also be possible to include the general competence of the front office. The weighting of this screening can be somewhat based on the amount of available information on the front office. In the case of DGB the Titan's front office had been in place since 2012. It had a short history of ineffective use of high draft picks for the offensive skill positions. In direct contrast, the Pittsburgh Steelers have a long history to draw off of.

Again, this could (and maybe should) be a thread of its own.

Good post, but do we not already do this? Many of us have done this very thing about DGB at different stages and many other players, seriously look at the old threads.

Also, many of us take this stuff into consideration constantly with more information or less on certain players or franchises in most cases. We also edit ourselves because if every post goes that far in depth it is now an article and no one is reading if every post is that long.

Not that it isn't good stuff to do, it's just we already do it and it wasn't going to turn up anything pre-draft not already known about DGB.

[_yeti]

I thought DGB was worth spending a late-1st/early-2nd on, but for educational purposes let's examine the false narratives about DGB;

- Was he really talented? No, he wasn't. He was bigger and faster than everyone else so he succeeded in college, but he never displayed any type of nuance to the position. Most if not all scouting reports confirm this notion.

- Was he an athletic freak? No, not really. DGB was big and fast, and by most standards that will qualify a person as being very athletic. However his agility was poor, his leaping ability was poor, and his SPARQx was poor. He's plenty athletic by any normal standard, but an athletic freak by NFL standards? Not even close. Not to mention he had short arms (32 1/2") and small hands (9") for his size (6'5").

- Was his head on straight? Apparently not. I remember people posting all these fluff pieces here about him turning his life around, swearing by them as concrete evidence DGB left his past completely behind. Of course we only know this via hindsight, however I think people either forget or don't realize that a person legitimately turning their life around is a very rare occurrence and isn't really something you should be betting on.

It's revisionist and convenient to say he was never talented.

Lol no it's not, I posted as much on this very forum before he was drafted. Lance Zierleins scouting report said the same thing. Hes big, fast with decent hands that is bad in every other aspect of being a WR.

Yes it is, sometimes the things we or Zierlein thinks are right and sometimes they are off and sometimes they are way off.

Look at this rundown,
"He missed the final 10 games of 2009 for lying to an NCAA investigator and his ability to control and handle the off-field issues that could come up have to be in question. He is extremely competitive to the ball when he is the target but sometimes shows a lackadaisical attitude when on the back side of plays or when asked to block. He needs to be more precise on his route running and not round off his breaks on the hard cuts. He could easily be the first receiver taken off the board if he can impress the personnel people in interviews."

That's Dez Bryant. Anyone who KNEW without a doubt on DGB is full of crap. We try to make predictions. There is so much self-congratulatory hindsight with some people and DGB. Why? The people who don't buy draw a hard line, sell a hard line, and then can't wait to pull out the I told you so's if they're right. If not, and he succeeded, how easy to move on and forget how guaranteed he was not to work out in some's eyes. It becomes well yea he is 6'5, he did have the metrics, he did get a 2nd round pick still spent on him.

Give me the failsafe predictions for 2017 players like the one's people claim to have had for DGB please! You would be a multi-millionaire if that was true.

[Dynasty DeLorean]

It's revisionist and convenient to say he was never talented.

Lol no it's not, I posted as much on this very forum before he was drafted. Lance Zierleins scouting report said the same thing. Hes big, fast with decent hands that is bad in every other aspect of being a WR.

Yes it is, sometimes the things we or Zierlein thinks are right and sometimes they are off and sometimes they are way off.

Look at this rundown,
"He missed the final 10 games of 2009 for lying to an NCAA investigator and his ability to control and handle the off-field issues that could come up have to be in question. He is extremely competitive to the ball when he is the target but sometimes shows a lackadaisical attitude when on the back side of plays or when asked to block. He needs to be more precise on his route running and not round off his breaks on the hard cuts. He could easily be the first receiver taken off the board if he can impress the personnel people in interviews."

That's Dez Bryant. Anyone who KNEW without a doubt on DGB is full of crap. We try to make predictions. There is so much self-congratulatory hindsight with some people and DGB. Why? The people who don't buy draw a hard line, sell a hard line, and then can't wait to pull out the I told you so's if they're right. If not, and he succeeded, how easy to move on and forget how guaranteed he was not to work out in some's eyes. It becomes well yea he is 6'5, he did have the metrics, he did get a 2nd round pick still spent on him.

Give me the failsafe predictions for 2017 players like the one's people claim to have had for DGB please! You would be a multi-millionaire if that was true.

I might be completely wasting my time with this response but here goes.

Firstly, I don't know who wrote that scouting report. I don't believe Zirlein was writing them at the time. Second, there are negatives for literally every prospect coming out of college. The fact that there are some negatives listed is meaningless. Third, there are also an absurd amount of strengths from the same scouting report you conveniently left out.

STRENGTHS Bryant has a really impressive combination of size and speed. Possesses the quickness and agility necessary to consistently gain separation as a route runner. Very good ball skills, catches the ball softly away from his body and is outstanding at high-pointing the jumpball and really fights for the football. Runs angry after the catch and is a load to bring down in the open field.

WEAKNESSES There are some questions surrounding Bryant's maturity level. Does not always show a high level of effort away from the ball. Was able to get open with pure athleticism in college but needs to run more precise routes at the next level.

The weaknesses have almost nothing to do with his game but his level of effort. I believe Dez's only on-the-field negative was route running, but that's written for nearly every NFL prospect and it was noted that his strength was gaining separation so he must have been running routes at an at least adequate level. There's no comparison to DGB's weaknesses as a player if we look at his scouting report;

WEAKNESSES Play strength is a major concern. Struggles to free himself from press coverage and can be taken completely out of his routes. Runs sloppy, rounded routes. Fails to set up his breaks and frequently leads cornerbacks to his destination. Slow to adjust routes and find open space against zone. Fails to create the separation that is potentially available for him at top of routes. Rarely looks to body up cornerbacks and keep them out of the throw. Suspect work ethic. Awareness of footwork near sideline an issue.

And here is my own little scouting report of him from May 2015 (so NOT in hindsight) essentially saying the same thing.

DGB - Every route was either a screen or a go route, so that's not too exciting. His "go-to" move was to shove the DB out of the way and then catch a touchdown... it worked but doesn't seem like the best way to go about things. Was criminally under-thrown by his QB on several plays which likely would have been long td's. Seemed to have nice acceleration and cuts on his slant routes. Plays to his poor vertical, which is to say he doesn't win a lot of contested balls because he can't get up the extra few inches. Lacks the savy moves with his hands to gain separation as Parker does. Not the best natural instincts, seems like a guy who succeeded because he was always fast and tall as hell and therefore didn't work on improving his game. He kind of looks like Josh Gordon the way he runs, a nightmare if you let him get up to top speed.

Saying DGB was "talented" was a lie then and it's a lie now. Nothing you say can change that fact unless it's your contention that big + fast + decent hands = really talented as a WR. Nobody KNEW DGB would turn out to be complete garbage, sometimes players work hard and improve in the NFL. Like I said, I was on board spending a late-1st or early-2nd on him although I was personally advocating for guys like Winston and David Johnson over him. In any event, the risk was worth the reward at that point. You can have real, legitimate concerns about a player without having to "know without a doubt" a player will be a total dud. Drafting is not about knowing with absolute certainty who will be good or bad, it's about knowing the odds.

[_yeti]

I don't know where to begin with that. I included a summary bottom line of Dez to show some of the same knocks, didn't "conveniently" leave out the strengths and weaknesses sections, that wasn't the point.

You have such an arbitrary definition of what is talented, in your opinion it sounds like someone who is small+slow+good agility+sharp cuts and routes is a "talented receiver." To answer your question, yes, big+fast+decent hands does equal talented. Being where he was and who he is even to this point is talented to me, it just isn't paying off to his hype or expectations. If he had completely dedicated himself 110% upon arrival to route running, conditioning, and the playbook, would he be talented then? Because that is saying that "talent" of all things can be learned, but speed and catching ability aren't talent

[Dynasty DeLorean]

I included a summary bottom line of Dez to show some of the same knocks

The only "same knocks" was the questions about work ethic and stuff. That's where the similarities began and ended.

You have such an arbitrary definition of what is talented, in your opinion it sounds like someone who is small+slow+good agility+sharp cuts and routes is a "talented receiver."

Yes, exactly. Tyler Boyd is exceptionally talented, but he doesn't seem to be a good enough athlete to be a difference maker at the NFL level. We'll see though.

To answer your question, yes, big+fast+decent hands does equal talented.

Well that makes zero sense to me. There are plenty of WR's entering the NFL like that and almost none of them succeed. Are you contending they're all cursed with DGB's off-the-field issues and terrible work ethic? If not, then I don't know how on earth you could equate that to "talented."

If he had completely dedicated himself 110% upon arrival to route running, conditioning, and the playbook, would he be talented then? Because that is saying that "talent" of all things can be learned, but speed and catching ability aren't talent

If someone is big and fast, generally most people say they are "physically gifted," not "talented." To me, talent (and we're of course speaking within the context of a WR) is generally referred to as a learned trait. Having the genetic makeup to become 6'5" does not make you a talented WR, that's quite an absurd statement. Of course DGB could do SOME things well, he had SOME level of talent, but he was bad in too many areas to be deemed "talented" imo. His skillset as a WR was severely limited, meaning he was not a very talented WR.


You can continue this absurd discussion about the definition of "talent", but if you're sincere about having an actual conversation and not just out to feel like you've won an argument on the internet you might want to focus your response towards the fact that DGB had a terrible skillset as a WR entering the NFL.

[_yeti]

I included a summary bottom line of Dez to show some of the same knocks

The only "same knocks" was the questions about work ethic and stuff. That's where the similarities began and ended.
And route running, which you promptly wrote off as afflicting almost every college WR and then left out.

You have such an arbitrary definition of what is talented, in your opinion it sounds like someone who is small+slow+good agility+sharp cuts and routes is a "talented receiver."

Yes, exactly. Tyler Boyd is exceptionally talented, but he doesn't seem to be a good enough athlete to be a difference maker at the NFL level. We'll see though.
Wow. Small guy bias much? The smaller guys as a population are always quicker and more agile, that's what makes players like DGB and Calvin Johnson rare. You probably only like shooting guards in bball too, huh? Height provides advantages in some areas and disadvantages in others. You seem to be writing off the advantages, maybe due to a ppr fantasy based approach to football, you are neglecting some of the real world benefit.

To answer your question, yes, big+fast+decent hands does equal talented.

Well that makes zero sense to me. There are plenty of WR's entering the NFL like that and almost none of them succeed. Are you contending they're all cursed with DGB's off-the-field issues and terrible work ethic? If not, then I don't know how on earth you could equate that to "talented."
I was using your limited rundown of a man into three simple traits, your question/definition of him. As to all these others, do they all earn #1 high school player in the nation, get welcomed into a second D1 after being kicked out for arrests, still dominate after layoff from football and a new offense, and then get drafted in the top of the 2nd round? Is that all of them? Or are many late rounders or UDFAs? It's like all paid scouts were wrong and only you were right and you know this to be a fact, especially when it has only been two NFL seasons!

If he had completely dedicated himself 110% upon arrival to route running, conditioning, and the playbook, would he be talented then? Because that is saying that "talent" of all things can be learned, but speed and catching ability aren't talent

If someone is big and fast, generally most people say they are "physically gifted," not "talented." To me, talent (and we're of course speaking within the context of a WR) is generally referred to as a learned trait. Having the genetic makeup to become 6'5" does not make you a talented WR, that's quite an absurd statement. Of course DGB could do SOME things well, he had SOME level of talent, but he was bad in too many areas to be deemed "talented" imo. His skillset as a WR was severely limited, meaning he was not a very talented WR.
So a guy who can put up 6 catches, 113 yards, and a TD AT New England as a rookie just has some limited talent at the position of WR, but Tyler Boyd is exceptionally talented. Also, being 6'5 did that entirely on its own. Oh, it was his physical gifts. Okay. What besides knowing the playbook and route running ISN'T a physical gift. Catching is talent based and the most important thing a receiver can and can't do. Also, earning and maintaining that speed isn't easy or done without work. In your language, Cuts=talent Speed=Gift.

You can continue this absurd discussion about the definition of "talent", but if you're sincere about having an actual conversation and not just out to feel like you've won an argument on the internet you might want to focus your response towards the fact that DGB had a terrible skillset as a WR entering the NFL.
Look at me, I can put everything you say in blocks, respond point-by-point, and then conclude by inferring that the other person is petty to respond to ensure the last word. That is definitely civil discourse, and I, myself, am having an actual conversation as opposed to you, who are just out to win some irrelevant sub-argument. I have proven DGB has a terrible skillset and a team releasing him is what proved all that I already knew to be true. Please.

I am not having a subargument on what "talent" is. I think he still has a chance. I think it is being vastly blown out of proportion how "bad" he was/is at actual football, at going and getting the ball when his number is called. And I think a lot of people who had much less substantive knocks on him (not all of which I agree with) couldn't wait to revel in hindsight simply because they didnt own him in fantasy football.

[themburns]

I thought DGB was worth spending a late-1st/early-2nd on, but for educational purposes let's examine the false narratives about DGB;

- Was he really talented? No, he wasn't. He was bigger and faster than everyone else so he succeeded in college, but he never displayed any type of nuance to the position. Most if not all scouting reports confirm this notion.

This is the part of the statement I found entirely unreasonable. Because there are plenty of sources to the contrary. Matt Waldman's RSP for example.
http://imgur.com/6b97E8d
http://imgur.com/pDt6htq

Or, how about these real NFL scouts talking to Bob Mcginn before the draft?

http://archive.jsonline.com/sports/pack ... 3621.html/

What, you might ask, is all this about Green-Beckham given that he finished a lowly seventh in the voting?

"He has the outstanding athletic package," an AFC personnel man said. "He may even be better than Cooper. Extremely talented."

That's a minority viewpoint among scouts, to be sure, but the AFC man isn't alone.

"Hard to cover downfield," said an another AFC scout. "Almost impossible to cover with a little corner. Super talented. He's a No. 1 for a team if he can control his demons."

Green-Beckham didn't even play in 2014 after being thrown out of Missouri 12 months ago for what several teams said were multiple failed drug tests and a domestic violence issue...........


Green-Beckham transferred to Oklahoma, where he practiced but was denied a waiver to play immediately.

"At Oklahoma they vouch for the kid," one scout said. "They loved the kid. His pro day was at Oklahoma (March 11), which kind of tells you what they thought of him. His receivers coach (Jay Norvell) was fired, and that was a big reason he decided to come out.

"At Missouri, everybody that I talked to loves the kid. From a football standpoint, they'd bring him back 100%. But from a university standpoint he had too many issues. The drugs, the weed. Then there was the altercation with a girlfriend. From the university standpoint, they had no choice but to dismiss him."

Feels like, the consensus at the time was talented. Good on you for avoiding him I guess, but that doesn't change what people thought at the time.