Rookie Fever and Draft Questions

General talk about Dynasty Leagues.
Mephistopheles
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Re: Rookie Fever and Draft Questions

Postby Mephistopheles » Tue Jun 20, 2017 7:55 am

DLF3000 wrote: Sun Jun 18, 2017 8:35 am I know one team in my league is always collecting extra seconds, like they're gold, not realizing they're mostly worthless crap.

But every offseason without fail, he gives away proven players for said worthless crap. DeShaun Watson is the latest hilarious use of his new, shiny, extra 2nd. Now if I had Luck like he has, I'm pretty sure that'd be hard pass for me and 90% of the world!

So essentially... David Carr for Watson and a 3rd. It'd be more funny if it wasn't so horrible.

Maybe these GMs should not be allowed to own dynasty teams? :ewink:

I'll make that trade every day of the week and twice on Sundays.
If you mean "Derek" Carr...then not so much.
PSA - Haggling is NOT the same as negotiating.

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Re: Rookie Fever and Draft Questions

Postby IR1 » Tue Jun 20, 2017 8:25 am

Some of this comes down to league size, type(idp) and how your leaguemates draft. May not hit many studs, but probably a fair number tier 2 players can be had in the second round of a 10 team idp league. Recently got Mixon at 2.02, so you never know, try to get as many 2nds thrown in as I can
10Team PPR-QB/RB/WR/WR/TE/PK/flex-DT/DE/DE/LB/LB/LB/CB/CB/S/S/flex
QB- Herbert, Tua
RB- Barkley, Swift, Montgomery, Dobbins, Walker
WR-Adams, ARSB, JWilliams, Godwin, Metcalf, Allen, Kirk, Flowers
TE- Kelce, Goedert
PK
DT- Buckner, Simmons, QWilliams,
DE- Hunter, JBosa, Thibodeaux, JPHillips, Rousseau, Paye, Greenard
LB- Edmunds, Warner, E Kendricks, Wagner, De"Vondre Campbell, Asamoah, Sanders
CB- Moore, Howard, Reed
S- Dugger, Pitre, Thompson
IR Dobbins, Dulcich
Taxi- Kincaid, QJohnston

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seahawks506
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Re: Rookie Fever and Draft Questions

Postby seahawks506 » Tue Jun 20, 2017 8:37 am

schiewerma21 wrote: Sun Jun 18, 2017 8:00 am
My top 3 this year of fournette Mixon and Davis those three picks are all in my top 15 players overall before they step on the field.

They will be on everyone else's this time next year as well.
I really disagree with this. Even if they end up being very good players, you're already paying a premium for any upside/ceiling and ignoring the significant inherent risks of investing in a player who hasn't played a down. There's very little room for their values to increase at that point because you're already assuming they'll be studs. This is the definition of rookie fever.
orphan rebuild- 3 superflex, nerfed QB scoring 0.5/1/1.5 wr/rb/te PPR
QB: Hurts, Dobbs, Lance, Huntley, Bagent
RB: Swift, Kamara, Sanders, K. Mitchell, Foreman, CEH, Dowdle, Demercado
WR: Lamb, AJB, DK, Hollywood, Jakobi, Lazard, Boyd, Shaheed, Douglas
TE: Chig, Juwan, Conklin, Taysom, Smythe
Picks: 3 2024 2nds

rebuild 2: 1QB PPR
QB: Richardson, Pickett, Mayfield
RB: Achane, E Mitchell, Demercado
WR: Chase, Addison, QJ, J Palmer, Wan'Dale, Claypool, Douglas, Metchie
TE: Kittle, Mayer, Otton, Ferguson
Picks: 3 2024 1sts, 2 2024 2nds

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Re: Rookie Fever and Draft Questions

Postby DinoDynasty » Tue Jun 20, 2017 9:04 am

If you have built a team that should consistently be a contender, I also find it best to trade your 1st to teams willing to move an established asset for several lottery tickets, or move your current late 1sts to bottom teams that have a high chance or being a top 3 pick later in the year.

This year I moved Tyreek, 1.9, and a 2018 1st for M Thomas. I'm not on the Hill wagon, and the chances that anyone at 1.9 will carve out a significant role to start on my team is minimum and I expect the 2018 1st to be in the same range.
2017 Champ, 2018 Runner-up, 2019 Champ, 2020 Champ, 2021 Runner-up
12 Team PPR
Stairway to Evans
QB: Hurts, Kirk, Bridgewater, Jimmy G
RB: CMC, Pollard, Foreman,
Sanders, Hill
WR: Kupp, Evans, Ridley, Dell, Josh Palmer, Hodgins, Osborn, Parker, MVS
TE: Kelce, Musgrave, Otton, Gray, Woods
DEF: Chicago Ravens
2024 2nd, 3rd, 4th

12 Team .5 PPR
Fields of Dreams
QB - Fields, Cousins, Wilson
RB - Taylor, Swift, Mixon, Pollard, Singelary, McLaughlin
WR - Olave, Tyreek, Tank Dell, Higgins, Gabriel Davis, E Moore, Mingo, Douglas
TE - Ferguson, Gray, Otton
DEF - 49ers, Pats
Picks 2024 2x1st, 3, 4

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Re: Rookie Fever and Draft Questions

Postby Goddard » Tue Jun 20, 2017 9:12 am

I like to trade for picks early in the year and then sell them in the offseason when their value goes up like crazy. I think investing in picks is a good thing, if you know how to utilize them correctly.

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Re: Rookie Fever and Draft Questions

Postby James McGhee » Tue Jun 20, 2017 9:22 am

seahawks506 wrote: Tue Jun 20, 2017 8:37 am
schiewerma21 wrote: Sun Jun 18, 2017 8:00 am
My top 3 this year of fournette Mixon and Davis those three picks are all in my top 15 players overall before they step on the field.

They will be on everyone else's this time next year as well.
I really disagree with this. Even if they end up being very good players, you're already paying a premium for any upside/ceiling and ignoring the significant inherent risks of investing in a player who hasn't played a down. There's very little room for their values to increase at that point because you're already assuming they'll be studs. This is the definition of rookie fever.
If the pick you use to draft one of them is earned, and wasn't purchased with multiple other picks, then hitting on them provides a 3 to 1 plus return on investment as studs are generally defined as worth 3+ random 1st round picks. You only had to use 1 to draft them.

Guy in my league earned the 2016 1.01 and selected Zeke with that draft pick. Zeke is now worth much, much more than the 1.01.
12 team league; 15 man roster; .5 pt PPR;
QB/RB/2 WR/TE/2 FLX/K/DEF

Tom Brady, Cam Newton
Mark Ingram, Kerryon Johnson, Rashaad Penny, Ronald Jones
AJ Green, Keenan Allen, Michael Thomas, Marvin Jones, Golden Tate, Keelan Cole
Rob Gronkowski
Will Lutz
Minnesota Defense

12 team league; 30-man roster; full PPR
QB/2 RB/2 WR/TE/3 FLX

Rodgers, Goff, Carr
Bell, J. Stewart, Foreman, Perine
Hopkins, K. Allen, Cooks, Hurns, Kupp, Lee, C. Samuel, Patterson, Taywan Taylor
Howard, Hooper, S. Anderson

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seahawks506
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Re: Rookie Fever and Draft Questions

Postby seahawks506 » Tue Jun 20, 2017 9:37 am

James McGhee wrote: Tue Jun 20, 2017 9:22 am
seahawks506 wrote: Tue Jun 20, 2017 8:37 am
schiewerma21 wrote: Sun Jun 18, 2017 8:00 am
My top 3 this year of fournette Mixon and Davis those three picks are all in my top 15 players overall before they step on the field.

They will be on everyone else's this time next year as well.
I really disagree with this. Even if they end up being very good players, you're already paying a premium for any upside/ceiling and ignoring the significant inherent risks of investing in a player who hasn't played a down. There's very little room for their values to increase at that point because you're already assuming they'll be studs. This is the definition of rookie fever.
If the pick you use to draft one of them is earned, and wasn't purchased with multiple other picks, then hitting on them provides a 3 to 1 plus return on investment as studs are generally defined as worth 3+ random 1st round picks. You only had to use 1 to draft them.

Guy in my league earned the 2016 1.01 and selected Zeke with that draft pick. Zeke is now worth much, much more than the 1.01.
That's not my point. My point is rookies are systemically overvalued relative to their risk. If you're already valuing a rookie in the top-15 which I assume to be startup ADP, that upside is largely cooked into the price already. There's little advantage to be had by investing at that point. To entertain your example of Zeke and the 1.1, the 1.1 is already extremely expensive, especially when a blue chip prospect like Zeke comes out. It's already taken for granted they'll be a stud. Then people get all confused when it turns out to be a Kevin White or T-Rich instead and that ROI is negative instead. We get lucky with stud rookies and conveniently forget the strikeouts. Then we keep chasing rookies.
orphan rebuild- 3 superflex, nerfed QB scoring 0.5/1/1.5 wr/rb/te PPR
QB: Hurts, Dobbs, Lance, Huntley, Bagent
RB: Swift, Kamara, Sanders, K. Mitchell, Foreman, CEH, Dowdle, Demercado
WR: Lamb, AJB, DK, Hollywood, Jakobi, Lazard, Boyd, Shaheed, Douglas
TE: Chig, Juwan, Conklin, Taysom, Smythe
Picks: 3 2024 2nds

rebuild 2: 1QB PPR
QB: Richardson, Pickett, Mayfield
RB: Achane, E Mitchell, Demercado
WR: Chase, Addison, QJ, J Palmer, Wan'Dale, Claypool, Douglas, Metchie
TE: Kittle, Mayer, Otton, Ferguson
Picks: 3 2024 1sts, 2 2024 2nds

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Re: Rookie Fever and Draft Questions

Postby James McGhee » Tue Jun 20, 2017 11:50 am

According to DLF's ADP page
https://dynastyleaguefootball.com/adp/dynasty-adp.php
Davis - 16
Fournette - 18
Mixon - 27

I do see your point. I think there is a bit of upward wiggle room for value to improve but I concede that it has less room to travel upwards than it does downwards.
12 team league; 15 man roster; .5 pt PPR;
QB/RB/2 WR/TE/2 FLX/K/DEF

Tom Brady, Cam Newton
Mark Ingram, Kerryon Johnson, Rashaad Penny, Ronald Jones
AJ Green, Keenan Allen, Michael Thomas, Marvin Jones, Golden Tate, Keelan Cole
Rob Gronkowski
Will Lutz
Minnesota Defense

12 team league; 30-man roster; full PPR
QB/2 RB/2 WR/TE/3 FLX

Rodgers, Goff, Carr
Bell, J. Stewart, Foreman, Perine
Hopkins, K. Allen, Cooks, Hurns, Kupp, Lee, C. Samuel, Patterson, Taywan Taylor
Howard, Hooper, S. Anderson

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Re: Rookie Fever and Draft Questions

Postby Chris_R » Tue Jun 20, 2017 4:05 pm

Hahaclintondix wrote: Sat Jun 17, 2017 7:27 pm Rookie fever is a thing. We all know it. Every year we chase the new shiny toys in hopes we find the next Beckham or Zeke, but we're let down more often than not. I know there are studies and articles out there about hit rates, percentages for each pick and all that jazz. What I would like to know is how it effected your league.

1) How often have you found that acquiring multiple first round picks actually works out?
2) In general, would you rather use your rookie pick to try and hit on a player, or would you rather trade it for current production knowing you might give up the next big thing?
3) How have teams in your league faired that have adopted the "rookie picks are better assets to trade then actually use" strategy?
4) How have teams in your league faired that blew it up and tried to rebuild through the draft?

Any insight is appreciated. Answer as many or few as you'd like.

1. There is no magic recipe or formula here other then more 1st round picks increases your odds but every year is completely different where some are better then others to hord picks so my advice would be to learn about the draft and understand all drafts for skill position players are not created equal. Are some drafts deep, weak, strong, what positions? Is there a sweet spot? Some years 2 late 1st beats one top 3 pick, others you'd prefer one elite pick. Some years the 2nd round is loaded.

I remember that 2014 draft class I knew that the 2nd round was a sweet spot for WRs unlike I can remember. Martavis Bryant, Kelvin Benjamin, Allen Robinson, Marqise Lee, Davante Adams, Jarvis Landry, Donte Moncrief, John Brown, were all 2nd round picks that year in fantasy give or take. Now granted the 1st round was stacked too, but that was incredible value on 2nd round players who had immense upside. Learn info like that prior so you can turn a 1.10 pick into maybe a 2.3 and 2.6, or 1.10 into 2.6 and a future 1st. Every year rookie fever is put of control but that year offered value for potential #1 WRs at a discount. Even at the time it was clear the upside of a guy like Robinson would be a mid to late 1st any other year. Just realize 2014 is an anomaly so trading for a ton of picks every year won't render these same results.


2. Every year is different. Some years I am fine with trading it away, others I want it. It's never set in stone for a method to go with. Also what situation is your team in? That matters. Do you need a starter or can you build depth behind a 31 year old starter. My best advice is to always seek out options and don't put yourself into a box. I always look into trade ups, trade downs, trade outs for a vet, just to see because you never know until you shop around. I've seen a ton of people trade away a late 1st for a current 2nd and a 1st next year. Those type of deals if done enough really put your team ahead by being patient if you aren't in love with any options. Also, always explore young studs who haven't broken out yet but have potential to. Davante Parker is my favorite "trade a 1st for him" player. You skip right past all the developmental years of solid play that someone let him simmer for, and you have seen him on film against NFL players before. Why is John Ross a better pick because he's a rookie? Melvin Gordon last off season, he had 600 rushing yards and a 3.5ypc with a big fat zero rushing TDs. How many people would have been ready to jump ship for another first and a new shiny toy at TH? Now he's easily a top 10 RB, a feature back who had 1400 yards, 41 catches, and 12 TDs. At LEAST look into these players because not every rookie comes out like a pro bowler and you can often get discounts on guys who are just as talented as the incoming rookies.


3. Not sure because everyone is different and learning your league mates personalities will better suit you. Some guys love youth and picks, some love vets and factor proven and winning, some love to trade, some love draft picks, etc. Nobody I know uses this method 100%, but there will never be a set answer because it changes based off the draft. The guy who horses picks for WRs in 2014 cleaned up, that exact same method another year blows up. I like to balance it between both. My ideal method is try to find young starters with a window of 4 years I can start every season and be competitive and not need to replace anyone, so my picks are all bonus. If you have a 34 year old TE, or a 32 year old WR, or a 29 year old RB you really need to hit on those. I like to manage it so if I miss it doesn't matter as much and I still have my core. Obviously it doesn't always work, as I'm not trading Lesean McCoy for a 3rd just to be young but that's still my objective.


4. Again subjective based on the year they did it. I took over one team this year that I blew up and my WRs I'm starting will be Devante Parker, Josh Doctson, and Martavis Bryant. I have three 1st and three 2nds next year. I won't know if I'll use all those next year until it gets here but I'll be open to packaging them for 1 stud, moving them out to 2019, or trading for a player. I'm doing a disservice to my team being tunnel focused. Sometimes I put my pick on the clock up for trade and see what I get and who will throw me something. No way Of be locked in to pick a rookie with every pick because odds are if I took 6 rookies there 2 might end up valuable starters. When it was Julio and AJG up top I paid and packaged everything to get one. Those guys don't come alone often though.
12 Team ppr Dynasty IDP Superflex
1 QB, 1 QB/RB, 1 RB, 1 WR, RB/WR, WR/TE, 1 TE, 2 DL, 2 LB, 2 DB, 2 DL/LB/DB

QB: Dak Prescott/Kyler Murray
RB: Jonathan Taylor/James Robinson/D'Onta Foreman/Chris Hubbard/Keontay Ingram
WR: Jamar Chase/Diontae Johnson/Amron St Brown/Courtland Sutton/Rondale Moore/Donovan Peoples-Jones/Christian Watson
TE: Dalton Schultz/Gerald Everett/Greg Dulcich/Jeremy Ruckert

DL: Joey Bosa/Khalil Mack
LB: Leighton Vander Esch/Tremaine Edmunds/Blake Martinez/Telvin Smith/Sean Lee
DB: Earl Thomas/Keanu Neal/Minkah Fitzpatrick/John Johnson


Picks: 2023(three)

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Re: Rookie Fever and Draft Questions

Postby maxhyde » Wed Jun 21, 2017 8:44 am

James McGhee wrote: Tue Jun 20, 2017 9:22 am
seahawks506 wrote: Tue Jun 20, 2017 8:37 am
schiewerma21 wrote: Sun Jun 18, 2017 8:00 am
My top 3 this year of fournette Mixon and Davis those three picks are all in my top 15 players overall before they step on the field.

They will be on everyone else's this time next year as well.
I really disagree with this. Even if they end up being very good players, you're already paying a premium for any upside/ceiling and ignoring the significant inherent risks of investing in a player who hasn't played a down. There's very little room for their values to increase at that point because you're already assuming they'll be studs. This is the definition of rookie fever.
If the pick you use to draft one of them is earned, and wasn't purchased with multiple other picks, then hitting on them provides a 3 to 1 plus return on investment as studs are generally defined as worth 3+ random 1st round picks. You only had to use 1 to draft them.

Guy in my league earned the 2016 1.01 and selected Zeke with that draft pick. Zeke is now worth much, much more than the 1.01.
Well sure he is worth more than the 1.01...and the ADP of the 1.01. So were Cooper and Gurley the year before...now you can get Gurley+ for the 1.01 while Cooper has leveled off beyond 1.01. However probably the only 2 rooks from last years 1st round worth more are Elliott and Thomas so that means 10 players stayed even or lost value and probably didn't help you win many games.
Landing elite players is a game of patience and recognizing when a bad season is a just a bad season and not an indictment of the player or looking for a reason to drop their overall value. Saw lots of cheap ARob/Hopkins deals this year too compared to their values last year.
Be patient and good players experience lulls in value...OBJ is the only guy I can remember not really having a value depression
DLF HOF League 16 team PPR
QB: Brees, Bradford, Lock(3.07)
RB: David Johnson, Penny, Sanders(1.07), Montgomery(1.06), Love(2.07) Bernard, MLynch, Morris, TJLogan, Joe Williams, Shaun Wilson
WR: Jeffery,Cooper, Josh Gordon, Dede Westbrook, Cam Meredith, Brice Butler, Chester Rogers, Lockett, Switzer, Malone, Cain (IR)
TE: Gronk, Swaim, Maxx Williams

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Re: Rookie Fever and Draft Questions

Postby Dynasty DeLorean » Wed Jun 21, 2017 12:58 pm

Hahaclintondix wrote: Sat Jun 17, 2017 7:27 pm Rookie fever is a thing. We all know it. Every year we chase the new shiny toys in hopes we find the next Beckham or Zeke, but we're let down more often than not. I know there are studies and articles out there about hit rates, percentages for each pick and all that jazz. What I would like to know is how it effected your league.

1) How often have you found that acquiring multiple first round picks actually works out?
2) In general, would you rather use your rookie pick to try and hit on a player, or would you rather trade it for current production knowing you might give up the next big thing?
3) How have teams in your league faired that have adopted the "rookie picks are better assets to trade then actually use" strategy?
4) How have teams in your league faired that blew it up and tried to rebuild through the draft?

Any insight is appreciated. Answer as many or few as you'd like.
All of this is on a case-by-case basis. How does your league value rookie picks? How good are you at drafting? How strong is the rookie class? Where are the tier breaks, and how do those relate to the picks you hold or are looking to acquire?

Every situation (league, team, owner, draft class, and rookie pick slot) is different. For example, in a rebuild I had acquired 5 2017 1sts. I used 2 to draft rookies. I traded 2 for an established player. I also traded 1 for a future 1st. You don't have confine yourself to any one path.


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