Josh Gordon Thread: Reinstatement (Deja Vu)

[jamesorr1]

How do we know he has questionable work ethic again? I'm starting to think maybe I'm missing something about Gordon this off-season that I need to be filled in on. If somebody can be out of college football for over a year(keep in mind when you aren't in the program it's incredibly hard to stay in shape, which is why guys like Dez, Mathieu, Big Mike Williams and others were out of shape by their pro days), miss all of OTA's and mini camps as a rookie, come in around Training Camp time, ascend up the depth chart and produce 50/805/5 as a 21 year old rookie, he would probably have to be one of the most physically talented players in the entire NFL. I mean come on, think about that for a minute.


So maybe someone could just explain that to me. A guy with a poor work ethic gets kicked out of school and becomes fat, lazy, slow, and out of shape. Especially for that length of time. He doesn't do what Gordon did at his age in that amount of time. I don't need any rumors or sources to put the pieces to that puzzle together.

This. I bought, at a reasonable price, and am anticipating a possible low floor only including further suspension etc, but as far as ceiling and ability, top 10. This kid is super young, and again, missed a whole year of work/exp in college, and still came out and produced in a crappy offense with a rookie, albeit older, Qb.

To me the question is not work ethic on the field, lots of wrs especially have the diva mentality and let natural ability carry them, though that's not optimal of course, some guys really can just make it happen, but the question of staying out of trouble, as he is...21 years old. I think most of us can't say we were the model of perfect behavior at 21, and we dont have his money and celebrity to warp even further.

So if he can keep his head on it will only get better from here, if we extrapolate last season. This is risk/reward incarnate.

[ccj]

Barring the ability to hang out with the guy or be at every practice, I rely on the messages sent from the team, scouts, analysts, beat writers, etc.

Per Rotoworld

Browns CEO Joe Banner suggested suspended WR Josh Gordon has had on-field issues in addition to his off-field woes.
The supremely talented Gordon had no issues between the lines as a rookie, leading the Browns in yards (805) and receiving touchdowns (5). He reportedly did a lot of offseason partying, and Browns brass took notice. "He understands he's going to be held accountable, and he gets the rope that's left isn't long," Banner said. "(The coaches) need to see that commitment, that work ethic." We're optimistic Gordon will get the wakeup call and fly out of the gate in Week 3. Jul 25 - 9:21 AM

I don't begrudge him offseason partying, but I'd rather have a guy who eschewed partying for working out, watching tape, perfecting his diet, etc. Also Banner comments on his work ethic. So take those as you will, but we work with what info we've got and those are things that weigh in the negative column for a dynasty asset. You can decide how much they weigh, but I don't think you could argue them into the positive column

[KMA]

Yeah. Basically, I feel I overpaid to get him. If I'm giving up a guy like Fitz, I really don't want to hear stories about not giving 100% or being the last one on the field. I know it sounds ridiculous but I appreciate the effort that Fitz puts in. Take Tannehill, reports state that this guy has put in countless hours bettering himself this offseason. That's what I expected from Gordon. There is no way to predict the future but in trading a great I was expecting this kid to at least aspire to be great. Maybe he turns things around and matures in a few years. Who knows. But I'm salty about losing Fitz for a "possibility". I never heard reports of Dez dogging it in practice. I don't believe his coaches EVER had to talk to him about effort. Maturity yes. (Maybe I'm wrong?) I wasn't in love with him to begin with and probably shouldn't have made the trade but I thought the value was decent. It remains to be seen...

[Hjorimir]

Gordon has all the talent in the world. And that's the problem. He has so much talent that he doesn't really think he need to work very hard. Hopefully they can get him turned around.

The Cleveland Brown WR that HAS been working hard is Greg Little, who I think the fantasy community has been a tad too quick to write off.

[Lumps]

Gordon has all the talent in the world. And that's the problem. He has so much talent that he doesn't really think he need to work very hard. Hopefully they can get him turned around.

The Cleveland Brown WR that HAS been working hard is Greg Little, who I think the fantasy community has been a tad too quick to write off.

If he's working on his stone hands.

For a guy that used to play RB I am thoroughly unimpressed with his run after the catch. I drafted him and regretted it ever since.

[jamesorr1]

Yeah. Basically, I feel I overpaid to get him. If I'm giving up a guy like Fitz, I really don't want to hear stories about not giving 100% or being the last one on the field. I know it sounds ridiculous but I appreciate the effort that Fitz puts in. Take Tannehill, reports state that this guy has put in countless hours bettering himself this offseason. That's what I expected from Gordon. There is no way to predict the future but in trading a great I was expecting this kid to at least aspire to be great. Maybe he turns things around and matures in a few years. Who knows. But I'm salty about losing Fitz for a "possibility". I never heard reports of Dez dogging it in practice. I don't believe his coaches EVER had to talk to him about effort. Maturity yes. (Maybe I'm wrong?) I wasn't in love with him to begin with and probably shouldn't have made the trade but I thought the value was decent. It remains to be seen...

Don't feel too bad, I gave up Fitz bc I felt he might start to have the 30+ age thing dogging him after the season, I traded him to a guy who's team was the worst in league by far for his 1st/2nd roudners, and then he goes and improves his team, so I traded the first rounder for Gordon/Sanu and 2 second rounders, so we'll see how it goes. Basically Fitz for gordon and 3 seconds.

[Chris_R]

Barring the ability to hang out with the guy or be at every practice, I rely on the messages sent from the team, scouts, analysts, beat writers, etc.

Per Rotoworld

Browns CEO Joe Banner suggested suspended WR Josh Gordon has had on-field issues in addition to his off-field woes.
The supremely talented Gordon had no issues between the lines as a rookie, leading the Browns in yards (805) and receiving touchdowns (5). He reportedly did a lot of offseason partying, and Browns brass took notice. "He understands he's going to be held accountable, and he gets the rope that's left isn't long," Banner said. "(The coaches) need to see that commitment, that work ethic." We're optimistic Gordon will get the wakeup call and fly out of the gate in Week 3. Jul 25 - 9:21 AM

I don't begrudge him offseason partying, but I'd rather have a guy who eschewed partying for working out, watching tape, perfecting his diet, etc. Also Banner comments on his work ethic. So take those as you will, but we work with what info we've got and those are things that weigh in the negative column for a dynasty asset. You can decide how much they weigh, but I don't think you could argue them into the positive column

I would expect them to say no less. He's young, probably feels like he "made it", is facing a lengthy suspension, you have to keep those guys honest. Remember this?

Jones weighed in on Dez Bryant and his recent trouble. “It’s very serious.” Jones said. “He’s gotta grow up.”

Jones said he talked to Bryant and he’s contrite. He thinks Bryant is a good person, but that’s not enough. Jones said he has to step up. And Jones said that he’s demanding Bryant gets his act together or they move on.

http://www.danpatrick.com/2012/08/01/je ... this-well/


So what's the difference here? Dez may have already been on the right track then, but it was absolutely the right thing to say. Now with that said, Gordon is a different case. Dez didn't have the substance abuse issues and suspensions, that is a concern for me and probably the team. I'm more discussing work ethic issues. Obviously the people around him know better then any of us, but I can say for a fact that people with work ethic issues don't do what Gordon did. People with work ethic issues get fat, show up at workouts out of shape, unconditioned, they don't pick up an offense quickly because they don't study a playbook, etc etc. The list goes on and on. I watched Dez very closely as an incoming rookie and it was widely documented he was out of shape at pro days, and training camp because he was kicked out of OK State.


In terms of game conditioning, he didn't even get that up to par until this last season, Gordon was ready to be "the guy" from the get go. It takes a good amount of work ethic to accomplish what he did, that to me is impressive. So knowing that quotes sometimes can be used as a message or a wake up call, I'm going to put more stock into his actions to show me he is a very hard worker, more so then those comments. I can't guarantee what type of season he'll have or that he won't have a sophmore slump, but he showed me all the signs of a very hard worker thus far and until proven otherwise that's what I'm going off of. I just have to hope he turned the corner with the substance stuff, it doesn't worry me enough to jump ship but enough that I don't want him as my WR1 or WR2 that I am relying on yet.

[Hjorimir]

Gordon has all the talent in the world. And that's the problem. He has so much talent that he doesn't really think he need to work very hard. Hopefully they can get him turned around.

The Cleveland Brown WR that HAS been working hard is Greg Little, who I think the fantasy community has been a tad too quick to write off.

If he's working on his stone hands.

For a guy that used to play RB I am thoroughly unimpressed with his run after the catch. I drafted him and regretted it ever since.

See for yourself: http://www.sportingcharts.com/nfl/playe ... d%20Passes

When sorted by frequency (http://www.sportingcharts.com/nfl/stats/drops/2012/), Greg Little ranks at 141, behind guys like Dez Bryant, Vernon Davis, T.Y. Hilton, Cecil Shorts, Demaryius Thomas, Rob Gronkowski, Shane Vereen, Victor Cruz, Jordy Nelson, Kendall Hunter, Randall Cobb, Ryan Broyles, and Jimmy Graham.

Greg Little's issue with drops is greatly, greatly exaggerated. He's put in the work and it shows, but people are still clinging to his 2011 season performance, which I will remind you was proceeded by a year out of football due to NCAA ineligibility at North Carolina.

[Chris_R]

Little is also a good point. I do think people overlooked him too quickly. He doesn't have top 10, WR1 upside but if you don't view him as such I think you'd be happy. He's going into year 3 which is the magical year for a bunch of WR's, he's worked tirelessly this off-season, and I think having Gordon around makes him all the better. I think he could be a pretty consistent 70/900/6 guy as his ceiling, which isn't bad at all. All things considered, his production his first 2 years wasn't bad at all, he's on a faster pace then some guys like Roddy White, and I think Dez as well, which shows how high our standards are sometimes for young developing players.


Stone hands is an issue, but he's better on short under neath routes to me anyway then a deep threat. Let him be the Anquan Boldin to Gordons' Fitzgerald style of play in that offense. I got Little very late in a start-up this year as my WR4 behind Dez, Nicks, & Broyles and I'm pretty happy about it.

[Water Buffalo]

Did I miss something? How are you upset about a trade in July? You don't even care to see the season play out then I guess? I just don't see any real reasons to be upset here, and if those reasons are all it took for you to regret it you probably shouldn't have traded all that for a player you didn't have much faith in.

I think he's reacting to news blurbs that keeps coming out such as this:

Cleveland Browns WR Josh Gordon (knee) was scolded during practice Monday, July 29, for not finishing plays or running after the catch. Gordon is battling patellar tendinitis, and perhaps was favoring his leg. However, he also has reportedly been the last receiver into position drills, and he has yet to work with QB Brandon Weeden and QB Greg Little after practice, despite the fact that Little and Weeden have worked on routes after every single session so far.

[Water Buffalo]

Name one fantasy stud that has routinely been labeled as having questionable work ethic.

"labeled as" not verified 100% as

Percy Harvin
Randy Moss
Brett Favre

I agree though. As a dynasty owner, I want guys who want to work. Take Dez vs Britt for example. Both have some weird brush ins with the law that make you question their maturity/decision making, but Dez is a workout warrior and Britt skipped at least one rehab (probably not the first), got fined, and then publicly complained about it.

Harvin has always actually been known for being a workout warrior and practicing extremely hard. There's always been a tiny bit of character concern with him, but I've never seen a report where he was dogging it at practice. I've heard on multiple occasions quotes from AP saying that he loved working out with Percy because Percy was the hardest working guy on the field. And I'm a Vikings fan, so I see all the local interviews and news blurbs surrounding the team.

Moss and Favre might be better examples, but again, I don't really ever remember them having serious work ethic concerns. Favre always wanted to get out of training camp late in his career, but come on, the guy was almost 40 years old and almost a 20 year vet. His situation is a bit different than Gordon's. And the only times I can remember Moss having work ethic issues is when he was a Raider, where he basically stopped caring completely. That might not be the best example to help Gordon's case though, because when he DID stop caring completely as a Raider, he became an afterthought for fantasy purposes and wasn't even a WR3.

[Chris_R]

Did I miss something? How are you upset about a trade in July? You don't even care to see the season play out then I guess? I just don't see any real reasons to be upset here, and if those reasons are all it took for you to regret it you probably shouldn't have traded all that for a player you didn't have much faith in.

I think he's reacting to news blurbs that keeps coming out such as this:

Cleveland Browns WR Josh Gordon (knee) was scolded during practice Monday, July 29, for not finishing plays or running after the catch. Gordon is battling patellar tendinitis, and perhaps was favoring his leg. However, he also has reportedly been the last receiver into position drills, and he has yet to work with QB Brandon Weeden and QB Greg Little after practice, despite the fact that Little and Weeden have worked on routes after every single session so far.

Ahh ok, that's why I asked I hadn't seen any of those reports yet. Although patellar tendinitis isn't a concern, it's just "jumpers knee" which only needs a few days of consistent rest, if he doesn't get that it'll likely keep bothering him but still isn't a surgery or scope concern.

[mtux96]

Little is also a good point. I do think people overlooked him too quickly. He doesn't have top 10, WR1 upside but if you don't view him as such I think you'd be happy. He's going into year 3 which is the magical year for a bunch of WR's, he's worked tirelessly this off-season, and I think having Gordon around makes him all the better. I think he could be a pretty consistent 70/900/6 guy as his ceiling, which isn't bad at all. All things considered, his production his first 2 years wasn't bad at all, he's on a faster pace then some guys like Roddy White, and I think Dez as well, which shows how high our standards are sometimes for young developing players.


Stone hands is an issue, but he's better on short under neath routes to me anyway then a deep threat. Let him be the Anquan Boldin to Gordons' Fitzgerald style of play in that offense. I got Little very late in a start-up this year as my WR4 behind Dez, Nicks, & Broyles and I'm pretty happy about it.

I think people are writing him off too early as well. His drops issue was improved at the last half of last season after the Bolt Pose Twitter Fiasco. He was catching everything that came to him. But one poster is correct, what he does after the catch needs to be fixed. Little tends to catch the ball and then pauses to see where the hole is. He needs to start catching, running and then finding the hole to run through which has been closing while he waits to find it.

[Hjorimir]

Yes, he totally needs to work on his YAC, but I think *some* of that comes down to QB play. Hitting a WR in stride helps quite a bit and it seemed that Little was making a lot of his catches at a stand still.

Over the last 5 games of the 2012 season (roughly a third of the season), Little accounted for 23/293/2. If you extrapolate, that's 74/938/6.4, which puts him at about 206 fantasy points (standard PPR scoring). That's low-end WR2 or high-end WR3. If he builds upon that performance just a little (now under OC Turner), he's got WR2 potential written all over him. Given his current perceived value in fantasy circles, Little seems like a great buy target.

[sehon4]

All the promise in the world. Solid rookie season, perfect offensive system, running back to keep defenses honest, only 22 years old...enough to make me pay Fitz to acquire Gordon and a 2014 1st round pick. Now I'm looking back wondering if I made a HUGE mistake. I understand the season hasn't started but the suspension, knee tendinitis, and "supposed" poor work ethic SUCK. This is what happens during a long offseason. You do more than you need. Why? WIll this jack bleep figure it out?

First of all you don't trade a quality guy both off and on the field of play for someone like Gordon and an unknown. Fitz has at least 4-5 good years left. I would never do it. That is why only quality guys with on and off the field of play get onto my team. Not gambling with my key guys at all. Don't need them suspended for crap. I wll deal with an injury prone guy like DMac before I deal with a knucklehead.