Josh Gordon Thread: Reinstatement (Deja Vu)

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TheOracle
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Re: Josh Gordon

Postby TheOracle » Mon Aug 27, 2012 4:49 pm

I'd appreciate it if a mod would politely verify that Water Buffalo is not my alternate account. :cheers:

By the way, I'd agree with you. I'd say WR2 upside, but WR3 projection.
12 team//24 Man Roster//1QB,2RB,4WR,1TE,1RB/WR/TE/1K/1DST//0.5 point PPR//$350 Salary Cap (Salary per year/Years)
QB= Stafford (19/3), Luck (10/1), Locker (1/1),
RB= Forte (39/3), Murray (11/3), Mathews (34/3), Martin (10/1), Tate (11/3), Hunter (6/1), F. Jones (3/1)
WR= Green (21/3), Harvin (27/3), Maclin (33/3), Bowe (23/1) Thomas (11/3), Quick (5/1), Hill (10/1)
TE= Hernandez (19/1), Rudolph (8/1)

12 Team, non-PPR, All TDs 6, QB, 2 RB, 4 WR, TE, RB/WR/TE, DEF, K, 20 man rosters, cut to 14 for Rookie/FA Draft
QB: RG3, Newton, Wilson
RB: Richardson, Martin, Spiller, Charles, L. Miller, L. James,
WR: AJ Green, Julio Jones, Cruz, Marshall, Fitzgerald, Alexander, Hankerson,
TE: Gronk,

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Re: Josh Gordon

Postby Chris_R » Mon Aug 27, 2012 5:02 pm

I'm pretty sure people are using the term "WR1" for different meanings from what I gathered.


When I say "this guy will be a WR1" I mean overall in terms of fantasy, you can't find 12 better WR's then him, so he would be your cog in your WR core. WR2 is the next step down, guys who just miss that level, and obviously WR3 is a guy to fill out your WR position who may provide some consistency or upside from time to time. I don't call a guy a WR1 because he's the best WR on the team, I'm only referring to fantasy teams when I use it to gauge how productive they will be as a whole compared to everyone else.


That said, I'm not sure if people were arguing his value this year alone, or his upside at it's best. He literally has no chance what so ever to be a WR1 in fantasy this year and it's not even close. Overall though, he certainly has that type of ability in him and I'm not expecting him to reach it in a hurry. He has restrictions with that offense, QB, system, and how raw he is. The QB thing isn't a big deal because for a team who will be picking top 5 every year most likely they can get a new QB that's actually a franchise QB and it could happen by the time Gordon hits his prime.


For this year he might provide some WR3 appeal but I'm not holding my breath for that. Greg Little probably wasn't a bad WR3 option in ppr leagues but he had to be a target monster for that to happen. He's still there now so two guys are going to get those targets on top of the monster workload T Rich should have as he's 100%. This year, not seeing why anyone would be looking forward to starting him in any format but longterm, I definately see him as a guy who has WR1 upside, which is why I would have easily taken him over guys like Sanu, who was/is nothing but a #2 WR projection and a supposed safe pick who hasn't looked very good thus far anyway.
12 Team ppr Dynasty IDP Superflex
1 QB, 1 QB/RB, 1 RB, 1 WR, RB/WR, WR/TE, 1 TE, 2 DL, 2 LB, 2 DB, 2 DL/LB/DB

QB: Dak Prescott/Kyler Murray
RB: Jonathan Taylor/James Robinson/D'Onta Foreman/Chris Hubbard/Keontay Ingram
WR: Jamar Chase/Diontae Johnson/Amron St Brown/Courtland Sutton/Rondale Moore/Donovan Peoples-Jones/Christian Watson
TE: Dalton Schultz/Gerald Everett/Greg Dulcich/Jeremy Ruckert

DL: Joey Bosa/Khalil Mack
LB: Leighton Vander Esch/Tremaine Edmunds/Blake Martinez/Telvin Smith/Sean Lee
DB: Earl Thomas/Keanu Neal/Minkah Fitzpatrick/John Johnson


Picks: 2023(three)

TheOracle
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Re: Josh Gordon

Postby TheOracle » Mon Aug 27, 2012 5:59 pm

I think here's where a lot of you guys are differing from me- there are maybe three or four guys I'd call future #1s, even though there always have to be 10-12 #1s. That's just a reflection of the fact that even though there are 10-12 #1s, guys like 2010 Brandon Lloyd and 2011 Victor Cruz/Jordy Nelson can have huge years out of absolutely nowhere. Yes, anybody, including Josh Gordon, Brian Quick, or Louis Murphy could somehow become a #1 receiver. Acknowledging doesn't get us anywhere as fantasy owners; we need to focus on what guys can realistically be expected to achieve.

My list of future WR1s looks like AJG, Julio, Nicks (even though he's already been there), Harvin (ditto), and Dez Bryant. (I'd also consider D. Thomas or maybe Blackmon after seeing a little more.) Am I saying that list is perfect, or even correct? No. Good chance I'm wrong on more than one of those guys. Having said that, there's no way you can reasonably put Josh Gordon into that tier.

Now, if you want to say WR1 upside includes Josh Gordon, fine, but in doing so I'd suggest that you're broadening that definition to the point that it's not even useful. If that works for you though, obviously that's fine.
12 team//24 Man Roster//1QB,2RB,4WR,1TE,1RB/WR/TE/1K/1DST//0.5 point PPR//$350 Salary Cap (Salary per year/Years)
QB= Stafford (19/3), Luck (10/1), Locker (1/1),
RB= Forte (39/3), Murray (11/3), Mathews (34/3), Martin (10/1), Tate (11/3), Hunter (6/1), F. Jones (3/1)
WR= Green (21/3), Harvin (27/3), Maclin (33/3), Bowe (23/1) Thomas (11/3), Quick (5/1), Hill (10/1)
TE= Hernandez (19/1), Rudolph (8/1)

12 Team, non-PPR, All TDs 6, QB, 2 RB, 4 WR, TE, RB/WR/TE, DEF, K, 20 man rosters, cut to 14 for Rookie/FA Draft
QB: RG3, Newton, Wilson
RB: Richardson, Martin, Spiller, Charles, L. Miller, L. James,
WR: AJ Green, Julio Jones, Cruz, Marshall, Fitzgerald, Alexander, Hankerson,
TE: Gronk,

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Re: Josh Gordon

Postby knuckles50 » Mon Aug 27, 2012 6:07 pm

Gordon is a nice prospect who has had "potential WR1" comments by some influential people. That means it is a HUGE stretch to think he is a wr1 or wr2 this year. People are saying he might become that years down the line. If you have any sort of talent on your team he needs to be your wr5 at highest. Just look at my team 1, not stacked with studs yet Gordon is a prospect. Let's keep some perspective here guys. If you need Gordon to be your WR1 or WR2 this year, you are probably not making the playoffs this year.
Team 1
12 team, 1/2 ppr 1 qb, 2 rbs, 3 wr, 1 flex, 1 te
QBs-Brees,Luck,Bridgewater
RBs- LeVeon,Ingram,R. Freeman,Thompson,Riddick,Conner,Walton,J. Jackson,Dixon
WRs- Evans,A Rob,Parker,Hurns,Sutton,Pettis,Moncrief,Treadwell,Sanu,Tavon,Dorsett,Carroo
TEs- Gronk,Kittle,Butt

Team 2
12 team 1 qb, 2rbs,v 3wrs, 1te
Qbs- Brees,Cam,Cousins,Jackson
Rbs- Gurley,Zeke,Kamara,McCaffery,Hunt,Shady
Wrs-A. Brown,Evans,C. Davis,Watkins,Goodwin,Woods,Washington,Treadwell,Jordy
Te- Gronk,Kittle,ASJ

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Re: Josh Gordon

Postby WZA » Tue Aug 28, 2012 8:07 am

I don't think anyone is saying Gordon is a WR1 this year. My comments and the comments from others supporting Gordon say he has the potential (based on prior college performance, scouting reports, size, etc.) .

It's obviously clear this guy won't be a WR1 this year or next year, but the argument is that he has the POTENTIAL to be that guy a few years down the road. Look at Roddy White...took him until year 3 to explode (as with many WRs). I think people these days are spoiled with the instant success of guys like AJ Green, Julio, etc. And yes, Gordon is clearly not on the same level as AJ and Julio right now, but that doesn't mean he can't get there some day. Every player develops at different rates.

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Re: Josh Gordon

Postby Chris_R » Tue Aug 28, 2012 9:33 am

TheOracle wrote:My list of future WR1s looks like AJG, Julio, Nicks (even though he's already been there), Harvin (ditto), and Dez Bryant. (I'd also consider D. Thomas or maybe Blackmon after seeing a little more.) Am I saying that list is perfect, or even correct? No. Good chance I'm wrong on more than one of those guys. Having said that, there's no way you can reasonably put Josh Gordon into that tier.
.

Agree to disagree then, I guess I just don't know how your personally ranking these guys, or your use of the term WR1 is throwing me off. Since you can't technically have five WR1's(which you did say though so I get that). Also, are you trying to project Gordon this year, or long term? Because if it's this year, that's self explanatory how he won't reach that. If it's long term, he very much so could end up into that tier. But your trying to compare him to guys who have been in the league 2-4 years and have just about hit their prime in comparison to a guy who hasn't played football in forever and is a rookie. Of course you can't put a guy like Gordon into that tier right now, but I am 100% sure he has the potential to be just as good as every one of these guys listed. There would be no reason to put him into that tier right now anyway, but it still tells us nothing about Gordon longterm.


I'm just not sure how your trying to gauge his value or what your comparing him against. Nobody is starting Josh Gordon this year in any format at all. But we've got to give him this entire season, and a full off-season next year before we truly know what we'll have in Gordon longterm. Not only did he miss the last year of football but he missed some important OTA's and mini camp stuff.
12 Team ppr Dynasty IDP Superflex
1 QB, 1 QB/RB, 1 RB, 1 WR, RB/WR, WR/TE, 1 TE, 2 DL, 2 LB, 2 DB, 2 DL/LB/DB

QB: Dak Prescott/Kyler Murray
RB: Jonathan Taylor/James Robinson/D'Onta Foreman/Chris Hubbard/Keontay Ingram
WR: Jamar Chase/Diontae Johnson/Amron St Brown/Courtland Sutton/Rondale Moore/Donovan Peoples-Jones/Christian Watson
TE: Dalton Schultz/Gerald Everett/Greg Dulcich/Jeremy Ruckert

DL: Joey Bosa/Khalil Mack
LB: Leighton Vander Esch/Tremaine Edmunds/Blake Martinez/Telvin Smith/Sean Lee
DB: Earl Thomas/Keanu Neal/Minkah Fitzpatrick/John Johnson


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Re: Josh Gordon

Postby Water Buffalo » Tue Aug 28, 2012 9:57 am

WZA wrote:I don't think anyone is saying Gordon is a WR1 this year. My comments and the comments from others supporting Gordon say he has the potential (based on prior college performance, scouting reports, size, etc.) .

It's obviously clear this guy won't be a WR1 this year or next year, but the argument is that he has the POTENTIAL to be that guy a few years down the road. Look at Roddy White...took him until year 3 to explode (as with many WRs). I think people these days are spoiled with the instant success of guys like AJ Green, Julio, etc. And yes, Gordon is clearly not on the same level as AJ and Julio right now, but that doesn't mean he can't get there some day. Every player develops at different rates.
But this goes right back to exactly what TheOracle said a few posts back.
TheOracle wrote: Now, if you want to say WR1 upside includes Josh Gordon, fine, but in doing so I'd suggest that you're broadening that definition to the point that it's not even useful. If that works for you though, obviously that's fine.
At a certain point, what's the point in even saying that a guy has WR1 upside? Should I just list off 50 WRs in the NFL that have "WR1 upside" because they have good size, speed or were productive college players? It just seems like a futile endeavor to me. Hooray, all of our prospects have WR1 upside!!!

No, it's not impossible for Gordon to some day become an elite WR. But doesn't it make more sense to be a bit more realistic?

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Re: Josh Gordon

Postby WZA » Tue Aug 28, 2012 10:10 am

Water Buffalo wrote:
WZA wrote:I don't think anyone is saying Gordon is a WR1 this year. My comments and the comments from others supporting Gordon say he has the potential (based on prior college performance, scouting reports, size, etc.) .

It's obviously clear this guy won't be a WR1 this year or next year, but the argument is that he has the POTENTIAL to be that guy a few years down the road. Look at Roddy White...took him until year 3 to explode (as with many WRs). I think people these days are spoiled with the instant success of guys like AJ Green, Julio, etc. And yes, Gordon is clearly not on the same level as AJ and Julio right now, but that doesn't mean he can't get there some day. Every player develops at different rates.
But this goes right back to exactly what TheOracle said a few posts back.
TheOracle wrote: Now, if you want to say WR1 upside includes Josh Gordon, fine, but in doing so I'd suggest that you're broadening that definition to the point that it's not even useful. If that works for you though, obviously that's fine.
At a certain point, what's the point in even saying that a guy has WR1 upside? Should I just list off 50 WRs in the NFL that have "WR1 upside" because they have good size, speed or were productive college players? It just seems like a futile endeavor to me. Hooray, all of our prospects have WR1 upside!!!

No, it's not impossible for Gordon to some day become an elite WR. But doesn't it make more sense to be a bit more realistic?
This thread is about Gordon, not any of the 50 WRs you may think has WR1 potential. Come on...try to keep up.

As far as pointing out the fact that what I said was basically what TheOracle said...congratulations...you just confirmed my point. It's the same point everyone has been making, except TheOracle seemed to be trying to disprove the very point he was actually making. The thread is about Gordon having potential to be a WR1 some day....period. I can't understand what is so difficult to understand. If you would like to talk about one of your 50 potential WR1s, then by all means, start a thread about one of those guys.

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Re: Josh Gordon

Postby WZA » Tue Aug 28, 2012 10:13 am

TheOracle wrote:I'd appreciate it if a mod would politely verify that Water Buffalo is not my alternate account. :cheers:

LOL...nice...It's starting to appear that way.

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Re: Josh Gordon

Postby Captainzach1 » Tue Aug 28, 2012 10:15 am

Once again until we see him in games that count, with legit play calling. It's all a guessing game. Also he's so young and raw you won't be able to judge him off this year alone. Part of dynasty league is patience, it seems patience is being practiced less and less and less.
12 team dynasty ppr salary
1 Qb, 2 RB, 3 wr, 1 te, 1 flex, 3 dl, 3 lb, 3 DB
qb- Andrew Luck
rb- Foster, McCoy, Tate, Ryan Mathews, Bryce Brown, Jstew
wr-Roddy, Steve Johnson, TY Hilton, Doug Baldwin, Josh Gordon, Brazil, Devier Posey, Benjamin, Jon Baldwin, Joe Morgan
te- Greg Olsen, Chandler
Dl- Morgan, JPP,Jordan, McClellin, Groves
lb- DJ smith,Burfict, Weatherspoon, Bishop, Kendricks, Carter
db- Brown, McClain, Jenkins
1.05, 1.09, 3.07, 5.08

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Re: Josh Gordon

Postby Water Buffalo » Tue Aug 28, 2012 10:28 am

WZA wrote:
TheOracle wrote:I'd appreciate it if a mod would politely verify that Water Buffalo is not my alternate account. :cheers:

LOL...nice...It's starting to appear that way.
Actually, he's just been the only one in this thread to make any logical arguments rather than a stupid (and completely useless) blanket statement such as "Gordon has WR1 potential because he's big".

It's been driving me nuts to see people completely ignore or not comprehend logical thought and well laid out arguments and come back with "anything can happen, we're hoping and praying looooooooooooooooooong term".

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Re: Josh Gordon

Postby WZA » Tue Aug 28, 2012 10:41 am

Water Buffalo wrote:
WZA wrote:
TheOracle wrote:I'd appreciate it if a mod would politely verify that Water Buffalo is not my alternate account. :cheers:

LOL...nice...It's starting to appear that way.
Actually, he's just been the only one in this thread to make any logical arguments rather than a stupid (and completely useless) blanket statement such as "Gordon has WR1 potential because he's big".

It's been driving me nuts to see people completely ignore or not comprehend logical thought and well laid out arguments and come back with "anything can happen, we're hoping and praying looooooooooooooooooong term".
The reasoning was his play in college before he left/got kicked off the team. The fact that he was being held up as a better prospect than Kendal Wright before his off-the-field problems. His size is also a plus, but was never stated as THE ONLY reason...Again, try to keep up. Seems like reading comprehension is not your strong point. Maybe you should focus on adding substance to the discussion instead of calling people who disagree with you "stupid." If you're looking to get people worked up by name calling, then fine...I'll jab back once, but I won't participate in that kind of crap.

News flash...this is DYNASTY football, not redraft. Looking for LONG-TERM is what this is all about. It's easy to point at the guys already at the WR1 level. Anybody can look up the DLF rankings and see that. What makes a successful GM is digging deep and finding the guy with POTENTIAL to be a WR1 some day. I don't recall anyone saying they are "hoping and praying" about anything.

The "logical thought and well laid out arguments" laid out by you, and your alternate name TheOracle, are just confirming the same point everyone else is saying.

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Re: Josh Gordon

Postby Water Buffalo » Tue Aug 28, 2012 10:47 am

WZA wrote:
Water Buffalo wrote:
WZA wrote:I don't think anyone is saying Gordon is a WR1 this year. My comments and the comments from others supporting Gordon say he has the potential (based on prior college performance, scouting reports, size, etc.) .

It's obviously clear this guy won't be a WR1 this year or next year, but the argument is that he has the POTENTIAL to be that guy a few years down the road. Look at Roddy White...took him until year 3 to explode (as with many WRs). I think people these days are spoiled with the instant success of guys like AJ Green, Julio, etc. And yes, Gordon is clearly not on the same level as AJ and Julio right now, but that doesn't mean he can't get there some day. Every player develops at different rates.
But this goes right back to exactly what TheOracle said a few posts back.
TheOracle wrote: Now, if you want to say WR1 upside includes Josh Gordon, fine, but in doing so I'd suggest that you're broadening that definition to the point that it's not even useful. If that works for you though, obviously that's fine.
At a certain point, what's the point in even saying that a guy has WR1 upside? Should I just list off 50 WRs in the NFL that have "WR1 upside" because they have good size, speed or were productive college players? It just seems like a futile endeavor to me. Hooray, all of our prospects have WR1 upside!!!

No, it's not impossible for Gordon to some day become an elite WR. But doesn't it make more sense to be a bit more realistic?
This thread is about Gordon, not any of the 50 WRs you may think has WR1 potential. Come on...try to keep up.

As far as pointing out the fact that what I said was basically what TheOracle said...congratulations...you just confirmed my point. It's the same point everyone has been making, except TheOracle seemed to be trying to disprove the very point he was actually making. The thread is about Gordon having potential to be a WR1 some day....period. I can't understand what is so difficult to understand. If you would like to talk about one of your 50 potential WR1s, then by all means, start a thread about one of those guys.
Try to keep up? Are you $h***ing me? Are you too dense to connect the dots? Since apparently you are, let me do it for you, ok?

Simply saying Gordon has WR1 potential X years down the road because of X very generic reason(s) is a completely and totally useless statement because you could say the same thing about (random number I picked) 50 other WRs in the NFL. And if you can say the same thing about just about anyone, what's the point of even saying it in the first place? Why not be more realistic with expectations, look at the situation logically (such as looking at the current WR1s and WHY they are WR1s - which Oracle did and made a strong argument for) and actually try to gather some meaningful insight about the situation and Gordon's prospects of actually ever becoming that WR1 you seem to think he'll be. Are you understanding now?

Your second paragraph doesn't even make any sense, it's pretty much incoherent babble.

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Re: Josh Gordon

Postby WZA » Tue Aug 28, 2012 10:48 am

hot nikkels wrote:Gordon owners will need to be patient with him, but he has the measurables of any legit WR in the league if not better. Unfortunately measurables don't make plays. If he works he could be a serious force to reckon with. Just don't expect WR1 numbers this year.

I picked him up as I believe he has the talent to be a legit WR1, but needs some work.
For the benefit of TheOracle and Water Buffalo...read post from hot nikkels above. Thought I would bump to get the conversation back on track from name calling to discussing dynasty prospects.

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Re: Josh Gordon

Postby WZA » Tue Aug 28, 2012 10:52 am

[/quote]
Simply saying Gordon has WR1 potential X years down the road because of X very generic reason(s) [/quote]

again...reading comprehension...

He had an impressive college showing before leaving Baylor. The argument is not solely about his size. Yes...try to keep up.


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