What constitutes a fair first offer?

[Goddard]

Just tried this for shits and giggles, but according to a trade calculator:

OBJ (just went with the top dynasty asset) = 58.2

Crabtree, Moncrief, Parker, Pryor, Crowder = 60.8

This to me is the exact definition of 4 (in this case 5) quarters not equaling a dollar. Maybe based on pure value it's even, but find me an OBJ owner that would take this deal.

Imagine you've just taken over a team in a large league and OBJ is your only good player. This isn't a bad trade at all. This is the equivalent of 5 future 1sts in a 12 team league. I would do this deal if I wasn't in a position to win.

That might actually be the only case where I accept this, but even then, I'd rather get 5 future 1sts then some of these WRs. But to that point, the trade calculator doesn't know what the rest of your team looks like (what if you're a contender and someone's offering this to you?). The point is, it's completely based on a numerical value.

[James McGhee]

Just tried this for shits and giggles, but according to a trade calculator:

OBJ (just went with the top dynasty asset) = 58.2

Crabtree, Moncrief, Parker, Pryor, Crowder = 60.8

This to me is the exact definition of 4 (in this case 5) quarters not equaling a dollar. Maybe based on pure value it's even, but find me an OBJ owner that would take this deal.

Imagine you've just taken over a team in a large league and OBJ is your only good player. This isn't a bad trade at all. This is the equivalent of 5 future 1sts in a 12 team league. I would do this deal if I wasn't in a position to win.

That might actually be the only case where I accept this, but even then, I'd rather get 5 future 1sts then some of these WRs. But to that point, the trade calculator doesn't know what the rest of your team looks like (what if you're a contender and someone's offering this to you?). The point is, it's completely based on a numerical value.

I think the calculator is a limited tool that can provide one view of value but that there are other things that should be considered as well. It can't be the only tool to look at a trade but it can help.

[lukkynumber13]

Just tried this for shits and giggles, but according to a trade calculator:

OBJ (just went with the top dynasty asset) = 58.2

Crabtree, Moncrief, Parker, Pryor, Crowder = 60.8

This to me is the exact definition of 4 (in this case 5) quarters not equaling a dollar. Maybe based on pure value it's even, but find me an OBJ owner that would take this deal.

Imagine you've just taken over a team in a large league and OBJ is your only good player. This isn't a bad trade at all. This is the equivalent of 5 future 1sts in a 12 team league. I would do this deal if I wasn't in a position to win.

To be honest I was just thinking the same thing. Not sure I would sell OBJ for that, but it's darn close

[Mephistopheles]

Make an offer you'd be willing to accept yourself if the roles were reversed.

If you have to "sell" your offer with long paragraphs convincing the other owner how great it is, it's probably not a good offer. Save the negging for the bar and the haggling for the swap meet!

Great way of putting it. I dislike dealing with other owners who have to dicker over and nickel-and-dime every aspect of a deal. If that last inch of position is so important to them, I'd rather just walk away.

Obviously important to you as well if you walk away rather than cede...deals I initiate I cede to them if it is of little consequence.
I feel every now and then losing a deal isn't the worst thing.
I do very little back and forth though...ever. I just have more interest in making a deal than the process of coming to a deal through a lengthy negotiation like others do. I understand why they get a a rush from it but not for me...

Yes, if I initiate the deal, I don't worry about it, chalk it up to buyers premium.
It's the ones, like one guy in one of my leagues recently, who initiate the talks, get you to compromise with them, and then they haggle over a 2nd round pick or a slot of draft position like it is the end of the world.

"Givers have to set limits because takers don't have any".

[Tsunami]

Just tried this for shits and giggles, but according to a trade calculator:

OBJ (just went with the top dynasty asset) = 58.2

Crabtree, Moncrief, Parker, Pryor, Crowder = 60.8

This to me is the exact definition of 4 (in this case 5) quarters not equaling a dollar. Maybe based on pure value it's even, but find me an OBJ owner that would take this deal.

Imagine you've just taken over a team in a large league and OBJ is your only good player. This isn't a bad trade at all. This is the equivalent of 5 future 1sts in a 12 team league. I would do this deal if I wasn't in a position to win.

That might actually be the only case where I accept this, but even then, I'd rather get 5 future 1sts then some of these WRs. But to that point, the trade calculator doesn't know what the rest of your team looks like (what if you're a contender and someone's offering this to you?). The point is, it's completely based on a numerical value.

That's how I use it, as a numerical value. I tailor my rankings to the league settings and then use the calc to determine within that set of players what trades to make. It's for tactics not strategy, you don't have to trade your only QB for a WR you don't need just because it improves the trade value of your win now team.

As far as "I'd rather get 5 future 1sts than these WRs" I don't think that way, at least not until the season starts. Nobody is going to have 5 future 1sts. I don't particularly like Crowder and Pryor and I don't want to rebuild with Crabtree, but someone likes them. I'll just flip them. You have to be able to take what someone can give and not think about how it helps your team immediately. That doesn't matter, if your valuation is accurate you can just trade them.

[Mephistopheles]

Just tried this for shits and giggles, but according to a trade calculator:

OBJ (just went with the top dynasty asset) = 58.2

Crabtree, Moncrief, Parker, Pryor, Crowder = 60.8

This to me is the exact definition of 4 (in this case 5) quarters not equaling a dollar. Maybe based on pure value it's even, but find me an OBJ owner that would take this deal.

Imagine you've just taken over a team in a large league and OBJ is your only good player. This isn't a bad trade at all. This is the equivalent of 5 future 1sts in a 12 team league. I would do this deal if I wasn't in a position to win.

To be honest I was just thinking the same thing. Not sure I would sell OBJ for that, but it's darn close

Yeah, I'd never sell OBJ for that in a million years. If you're trading a stud, should at least get an elite level player in return.
Not to mention, on the other side, how many teams can realistically give up 5 players, especially at the same position, to get one? Those kinds of trades gut a team.

[clarion contrarion]

in truth there is no bad initial offer assuming you are dealing with adults . I see although often that is not the case when people run around peeing their pants like their hair is on fire because someone sends them a weak or cheap initial offer . It was an offer not a contract in blood , simmer down francis I didn't ask for your P.I.N. - perhaps if you are too busy to respond then perhaps being in 8 or 10 or 20 leagues is too much and you need to scale back a bit there tiger .
My guess is many of the same people that would bitch about the 5 for 1 deal are the same people that go pay 10 or 15 $ for a sixer of bison piss or dog puke smelling chocolate or tangerine flavored beer without blinking thinking they are edgy and precocious , in reality pretentious & pathetic is likely closer to the truth.
One point I agree with if you have to explain why the trade is good for me I am likely going to do you a favor and reject the deal " for your own good" . A trade is like a joke if you have to explain it , then it either sucks or it is too obscure to appreciate the damned thing.

[Goddard]

Imagine you've just taken over a team in a large league and OBJ is your only good player. This isn't a bad trade at all. This is the equivalent of 5 future 1sts in a 12 team league. I would do this deal if I wasn't in a position to win.

That might actually be the only case where I accept this, but even then, I'd rather get 5 future 1sts then some of these WRs. But to that point, the trade calculator doesn't know what the rest of your team looks like (what if you're a contender and someone's offering this to you?). The point is, it's completely based on a numerical value.

That's how I use it, as a numerical value. I tailor my rankings to the league settings and then use the calc to determine within that set of players what trades to make. It's for tactics not strategy, you don't have to trade your only QB for a WR you don't need just because it improves the trade value of your win now team.

As far as "I'd rather get 5 future 1sts than these WRs" I don't think that way, at least not until the season starts. Nobody is going to have 5 future 1sts. I don't particularly like Crowder and Pryor and I don't want to rebuild with Crabtree, but someone likes them. I'll just flip them. You have to be able to take what someone can give and not think about how it helps your team immediately. That doesn't matter, if your valuation is accurate you can just trade them.

I agree that it would be difficult to find a team with 5 future 1sts, but I'd still rather pick 2 or 3 of WRs that I like and ask for 2 future 1sts if possible. And who's to say you'll get equal/fair value for Crabtree/Pryor/Crowder if you try to flip them? Yes, the trade calculator can be helpful if you're using it as a tool to gauge value, but my point was it shouldn't be the only thing you're using.

[Goddard]

in truth there is no bad initial offer assuming you are dealing with adults . I see although often that is not the case when people run around peeing their pants like their hair is on fire because someone sends them a weak or cheap initial offer . It was an offer not a contract in blood , simmer down francis I didn't ask for your P.I.N. - perhaps if you are too busy to respond then perhaps being in 8 or 10 or 20 leagues is too much and you need to scale back a bit there tiger .
My guess is many of the same people that would bitch about the 5 for 1 deal are the same people that go pay 10 or 15 $ for a sixer of bison piss or dog puke smelling chocolate or tangerine flavored beer without blinking thinking they are edgy and precocious , in reality pretentious & pathetic is likely closer to the truth.
One point I agree with if you have to explain why the trade is good for me I am likely going to do you a favor and reject the deal " for your own good" . A trade is like a joke if you have to explain it , then it either sucks or it is too obscure to appreciate the damned thing.

I was with you till I got to this part. Maybe I'm misunderstanding, and please correct me if I am, but are you saying if someone turns down 5 average players/pieces for their 1 stud is pretentious and pathetic? Or did you mean the person offering that and expecting it to get accepted is the flavored beer drinking hipster?

[DLF3000]

Now that we've played 8 years, something just hit me. Trading sucks. Tons of negatives, not enough positives.

First, there's not many trades, and second, there's always a few from "that guy" that are just farm team fleecing jobs. And that's just the tip of the iceberg.

Personally, I think, going forward, I'd much rather have a larger taxi squad and ~6 rookie draft picks every year instead of 4. That way it's all on me and I don't waste time with back-and-forth traders.

Although, I can't control the asshat trades, I at least do complain about them openly in hopes things change.

BOT, "fair" is naturally subjective in the case of trades. It always has been. Sure there's lists and ranks, but do they matter all the time to everyone? Of course not. What's fair to you 100% could be 0% fair to someone else. Sometimes legit, sometimes just because some GMs are annoying or difficult to deal with. Or sometimes, they have your same philosophy or preferences - that can actually work against you because they want the same sort of players you do. So why trade? Excepting a truly desperate hole at a given position?

Every situation, team, league roster limits, league scoring system and GM is different. It reminds me of the NBA All Stars - there's always some players you'll disagree with on how "deserving" or valuable or talented they are, or if they got snubbed and should have been voted in, for a ton of different reasons.

[Cameron Giles]

Most 1st offers suck. It's not just a rule of thumb for dynasty, but negotiating in general. Nobody ever starts with their highest offer, and you shouldn't. On Shark Tank for example, the sharks will always start low, but when other sharks start making bids or they find out more valuable pieces of information (unexpectedly high sales), they up the ante and get competitive.

We all value players differently, so it's impossible for a universal fair offer. My best idea of a fair 1st offer is a deal that isn't intellectually dishonest. If you're going to offer me a late 1st and Jerick McKinnon for Todd Gurley, then I'm more likely to just reject with no response and go on with my day. If you offer me 1.03, then I think we can negotiate (if I'm interested in moving him that is).

[clarion contrarion]

No I meant the person bitching about receiving an offer like that ? Its an offer an I could see many reasons to accept that offer for OBJ . If you had no depth then giving up a stud for many mix and match pieces could be fine roster management . I have been beating the brains out of people for years that must have the studs and then 1st injury or bye week they are moaning about bad luck or the fantasy gods hating them. Having 5 solid wr is going to cover any bye week issues and guard against even serious injury woes . That said it would be solely roster dependent , If I am starting from scratch and so is everyone else then obviously OBJ is the 1:1 or real close but after the draft ends I intend to win games and then games from week 4 til week 12 with all the bye weeks are nearly as important as weeks 14 through 16 . Obj isn't getting you to the playoffs by himself but 5 weekly starters can be a great boon in that effort . If you have an injury at rb and obj is all you have you are done or if you are other owners mercy you will sell obj for a lesser wr and a rb but with 5 guys you can perhaps go get some help
without destroying the integrity of your team..

[Missile]

in truth there is no bad initial offer assuming you are dealing with adults . I see although often that is not the case when people run around peeing their pants like their hair is on fire because someone sends them a weak or cheap initial offer . It was an offer not a contract in blood , simmer down francis I didn't ask for your P.I.N. - perhaps if you are too busy to respond then perhaps being in 8 or 10 or 20 leagues is too much and you need to scale back a bit there tiger .
My guess is many of the same people that would bitch about the 5 for 1 deal are the same people that go pay 10 or 15 $ for a sixer of bison piss or dog puke smelling chocolate or tangerine flavored beer without blinking thinking they are edgy and precocious , in reality pretentious & pathetic is likely closer to the truth.
One point I agree with if you have to explain why the trade is good for me I am likely going to do you a favor and reject the deal " for your own good" . A trade is like a joke if you have to explain it , then it either sucks or it is too obscure to appreciate the damned thing.

But there are initial bad offers. Not sure why you think there can't be any? I just finished start up draft last week. Proceeded to get an offer of the other teams player picked in round 19 for my player picked in round 12. He "sweetened" the deal with a 2018 4th rd pick. How is this a good offer? Don't think I'm being all high and mighty here. Does the offer really bother me? No. Is it bad? Yes

[saw061600]

See a lot of comments about "imagine your trade from other end, would you make the trade". That sound great but that's not really what we do.
We often look for players on our roster that have higher market value then our personal valuation. We then try to sell these high value players for players on another team that have a lower market value compared to what we believe is their true worth. You know: Buy Low Sell High!!!! We also look for the sleepers or players we believe are ready to break out; players for which we NEVER offer our believed anticipated value since would be Buying HIGH.
I'm not saying we should try to rip people off or offer a bunch of crap that the calculator says adds up to the value of the player we want. But I am saying we often play Fantasy Football Stock Market and make trades that look great for the other owner today while fully believing we've just made a steal of deal for later.

A fair first offer then is one that is made using current market value of players with consideration to team need and league scoring. It should be influenced by your personal valuations and belief but not based entirely on your view of the assets involved.

[clarion contrarion]

in truth there is no bad initial offer assuming you are dealing with adults . I see although often that is not the case when people run around peeing their pants like their hair is on fire because someone sends them a weak or cheap initial offer . It was an offer not a contract in blood , simmer down francis I didn't ask for your P.I.N. - perhaps if you are too busy to respond then perhaps being in 8 or 10 or 20 leagues is too much and you need to scale back a bit there tiger .
My guess is many of the same people that would bitch about the 5 for 1 deal are the same people that go pay 10 or 15 $ for a sixer of bison piss or dog puke smelling chocolate or tangerine flavored beer without blinking thinking they are edgy and precocious , in reality pretentious & pathetic is likely closer to the truth.
One point I agree with if you have to explain why the trade is good for me I am likely going to do you a favor and reject the deal " for your own good" . A trade is like a joke if you have to explain it , then it either sucks or it is too obscure to appreciate the damned thing.

But there are initial bad offers. Not sure why you think there can't be any? I just finished start up draft last week. Proceeded to get an offer of the other teams player picked in round 19 for my player picked in round 12. He "sweetened" the deal with a 2018 4th rd pick. How is this a good offer? Don't think I'm being all high and mighty here. Does the offer really bother me? No. Is it bad? Yes

so to clarify perhaps.
bad offers can happen but in perception only , as in my perceived value and the other manager's perceived values are off sometimes substantially absolutely can agree on that but it can start you on the path, any offer can be the start of a fruitful negotiation. This assumes it is not part of a spamstorm I have encountered that , those are the real bad offers and the single most annoying owners.