Holy crap, I thought you were saying the Broncos. My mistake. I agree. Cleveland is hot garbage.93devil wrote:They have had three winning seasons in the last 25 years.guyatwork37 wrote:You're not a mess if you're a winning team. The whole is greater than the sum of its parts.93devil wrote:http://www.pro-football-reference.com/t ... /draft.htm
The Browns have drafted and developed one All-pro player in the last 16 years. They only have a small handful of all-pros in that time period. Many of their players making the pro bowl only once.
They are a mess.
They have won one playoff game in the last 25 years.
Is Cleveland really a bad situation?
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Re: Is Cleveland really a bad situation?
Re: Is Cleveland really a bad situation?
They were hot garbage in 2014, when they used a first-round pick to take a clown like Manziel, and again in early 2015, when a key assistant coach for the offense broke his AA pledge and beat up his wife, leaving a 37 year old first-time OC in the lurch. i.e. Standard Factory of Sadness shenanigans. The list goes on into the distance.
But here in early 2016, they're a low expectations rebuilding roster that just hired one of the league's best ascending coaches, and pretty much killed it out there Day 1 of his regime's first draft. You know, if Bill Belichick and the Pats had traded back twice like that in a weak draft class for extra picks and still nabbed a prospect like Coleman, media pundits would be crowing about their typical Patriots genius.
But here in early 2016, they're a low expectations rebuilding roster that just hired one of the league's best ascending coaches, and pretty much killed it out there Day 1 of his regime's first draft. You know, if Bill Belichick and the Pats had traded back twice like that in a weak draft class for extra picks and still nabbed a prospect like Coleman, media pundits would be crowing about their typical Patriots genius.
Last edited by ninotoreS on Fri Apr 29, 2016 10:37 am, edited 2 times in total.
"I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. It’s the only way to be sure."
- Sun Tzu, 469 BCE
- Sun Tzu, 469 BCE
Re: Is Cleveland really a bad situation?
At one time they had arguably the greatest football coach in NFL history as their head coach. He could not help them.growskey23 wrote:I'm not going to say they're not bad. Right now they are bottom feeders in the league. With that said, I definitely see rays of hope for them. Hue Jackson is one of the seeds that I think can bear some great fruit for Cleveland. I am a fan of them taking a chance on RGIII because he has done well in the league before with a lot of factors working against him. Corey Coleman is a playmaker which is something they desperately need. I realize these are all small things and I'm not claiming the win the AFC North or anything, but I am seeing steps in the right direction which is very important thing to realize. They are a buy low stock that should provide some good returns.
Until they win, there is no hope. They have lost all right to have hope. Incompetence has ruled this franchise for too long.
14 Team PPR (1.0) IDP Dynasty 53-man roster
1 QB - Bortles, A. Smith, Garoppolo
1-2 RB - D. Johnson, Bernard, J. White, Collins
2-4 WR - Matthews, Hurns, Fuller, Perriman,Gordon, Dorsett, Lee, Richardson, V. Jackson, Patton, Lewis
1-2 TE - Gronk, Griffin, Kendricks
1-2 DT Williams
2 DE Pierre-Paul, SpenceHeyward
3-4 LB Alonso, Compton, Foster, Dansby Rey, Roberts, Ragland, Nelson, James, Brothers, Maktevich
2 CB Burns, Worley
2 S Hyde, Killebrew Sorenson
14-Team Draft - 1.07, 1.08, 1.10, 2.01, 2.07, 2.10, 3.07, 3.08, 4.07, 6.07,
1 QB - Bortles, A. Smith, Garoppolo
1-2 RB - D. Johnson, Bernard, J. White, Collins
2-4 WR - Matthews, Hurns, Fuller, Perriman,Gordon, Dorsett, Lee, Richardson, V. Jackson, Patton, Lewis
1-2 TE - Gronk, Griffin, Kendricks
1-2 DT Williams
2 DE Pierre-Paul, SpenceHeyward
3-4 LB Alonso, Compton, Foster, Dansby Rey, Roberts, Ragland, Nelson, James, Brothers, Maktevich
2 CB Burns, Worley
2 S Hyde, Killebrew Sorenson
14-Team Draft - 1.07, 1.08, 1.10, 2.01, 2.07, 2.10, 3.07, 3.08, 4.07, 6.07,
- guyatwork37
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Re: Is Cleveland really a bad situation?
ninotoreS wrote:They were hot garbage in 2014, when they used a first-round pick to take a clown like Manziel, and again in early 2015, when a key assistant coach for the offense broke his AA pledge and beat up his wife, leaving a 37 year old first-time OC in the lurch. i.e. Standard Factory of Sadness shenanigans. The list goes on into the distance.
But here in early 2016, they're a low expectations rebuilding roster that just hired one of the league's best ascending coaches, and pretty much killed it out there Day 1 of his regime's first draft. You know, if Bill Belichick and the Pats had traded back twice like that in a weak draft class for extra picks and still nabbed a prospect like Coleman, media pundits would be crowing about their typical Patriots genius.
We'll that's because the Patriots would have good pieces around coleman and veteran leadership and stability. Cleveland has not these things.
I'm Not saying they didn't do well with acquiring a butt load of picks. I'm saying that Cleveland is not a good situation for coleman. Would have been better for Treadwell or doctor.
Re: Is Cleveland really a bad situation?
You can still be a great fantasy receiver on an awful team. Look at what Gordon did when he was not suspended.guyatwork37 wrote:ninotoreS wrote:They were hot garbage in 2014, when they used a first-round pick to take a clown like Manziel, and again in early 2015, when a key assistant coach for the offense broke his AA pledge and beat up his wife, leaving a 37 year old first-time OC in the lurch. i.e. Standard Factory of Sadness shenanigans. The list goes on into the distance.
But here in early 2016, they're a low expectations rebuilding roster that just hired one of the league's best ascending coaches, and pretty much killed it out there Day 1 of his regime's first draft. You know, if Bill Belichick and the Pats had traded back twice like that in a weak draft class for extra picks and still nabbed a prospect like Coleman, media pundits would be crowing about their typical Patriots genius.
We'll that's because the Patriots would have good pieces around coleman and veteran leadership and stability. Cleveland has not these things.
I'm Not saying they didn't do well with acquiring a butt load of picks. I'm saying that Cleveland is not a good situation for coleman. Would have been better for Treadwell or doctor.
But as a team that can win games and be a force in the AFC? Not a chance. Not for a while.
14 Team PPR (1.0) IDP Dynasty 53-man roster
1 QB - Bortles, A. Smith, Garoppolo
1-2 RB - D. Johnson, Bernard, J. White, Collins
2-4 WR - Matthews, Hurns, Fuller, Perriman,Gordon, Dorsett, Lee, Richardson, V. Jackson, Patton, Lewis
1-2 TE - Gronk, Griffin, Kendricks
1-2 DT Williams
2 DE Pierre-Paul, SpenceHeyward
3-4 LB Alonso, Compton, Foster, Dansby Rey, Roberts, Ragland, Nelson, James, Brothers, Maktevich
2 CB Burns, Worley
2 S Hyde, Killebrew Sorenson
14-Team Draft - 1.07, 1.08, 1.10, 2.01, 2.07, 2.10, 3.07, 3.08, 4.07, 6.07,
1 QB - Bortles, A. Smith, Garoppolo
1-2 RB - D. Johnson, Bernard, J. White, Collins
2-4 WR - Matthews, Hurns, Fuller, Perriman,Gordon, Dorsett, Lee, Richardson, V. Jackson, Patton, Lewis
1-2 TE - Gronk, Griffin, Kendricks
1-2 DT Williams
2 DE Pierre-Paul, SpenceHeyward
3-4 LB Alonso, Compton, Foster, Dansby Rey, Roberts, Ragland, Nelson, James, Brothers, Maktevich
2 CB Burns, Worley
2 S Hyde, Killebrew Sorenson
14-Team Draft - 1.07, 1.08, 1.10, 2.01, 2.07, 2.10, 3.07, 3.08, 4.07, 6.07,
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Re: Is Cleveland really a bad situation?
Sounds like they really hurt you...93devil wrote:At one time they had arguably the greatest football coach in NFL history as their head coach. He could not help them.growskey23 wrote:I'm not going to say they're not bad. Right now they are bottom feeders in the league. With that said, I definitely see rays of hope for them. Hue Jackson is one of the seeds that I think can bear some great fruit for Cleveland. I am a fan of them taking a chance on RGIII because he has done well in the league before with a lot of factors working against him. Corey Coleman is a playmaker which is something they desperately need. I realize these are all small things and I'm not claiming the win the AFC North or anything, but I am seeing steps in the right direction which is very important thing to realize. They are a buy low stock that should provide some good returns.
Until they win, there is no hope. They have lost all right to have hope. Incompetence has ruled this franchise for too long.
Re: Is Cleveland really a bad situation?
Actually, the two extra wins they give my team each year really helps me out.growskey23 wrote:Sounds like they really hurt you...93devil wrote:At one time they had arguably the greatest football coach in NFL history as their head coach. He could not help them.growskey23 wrote:I'm not going to say they're not bad. Right now they are bottom feeders in the league. With that said, I definitely see rays of hope for them. Hue Jackson is one of the seeds that I think can bear some great fruit for Cleveland. I am a fan of them taking a chance on RGIII because he has done well in the league before with a lot of factors working against him. Corey Coleman is a playmaker which is something they desperately need. I realize these are all small things and I'm not claiming the win the AFC North or anything, but I am seeing steps in the right direction which is very important thing to realize. They are a buy low stock that should provide some good returns.
Until they win, there is no hope. They have lost all right to have hope. Incompetence has ruled this franchise for too long.
But as a franchise, they are pitiful. From the Lerners to Haslam, they are just not good at owning a professional sports franchise.
14 Team PPR (1.0) IDP Dynasty 53-man roster
1 QB - Bortles, A. Smith, Garoppolo
1-2 RB - D. Johnson, Bernard, J. White, Collins
2-4 WR - Matthews, Hurns, Fuller, Perriman,Gordon, Dorsett, Lee, Richardson, V. Jackson, Patton, Lewis
1-2 TE - Gronk, Griffin, Kendricks
1-2 DT Williams
2 DE Pierre-Paul, SpenceHeyward
3-4 LB Alonso, Compton, Foster, Dansby Rey, Roberts, Ragland, Nelson, James, Brothers, Maktevich
2 CB Burns, Worley
2 S Hyde, Killebrew Sorenson
14-Team Draft - 1.07, 1.08, 1.10, 2.01, 2.07, 2.10, 3.07, 3.08, 4.07, 6.07,
1 QB - Bortles, A. Smith, Garoppolo
1-2 RB - D. Johnson, Bernard, J. White, Collins
2-4 WR - Matthews, Hurns, Fuller, Perriman,Gordon, Dorsett, Lee, Richardson, V. Jackson, Patton, Lewis
1-2 TE - Gronk, Griffin, Kendricks
1-2 DT Williams
2 DE Pierre-Paul, SpenceHeyward
3-4 LB Alonso, Compton, Foster, Dansby Rey, Roberts, Ragland, Nelson, James, Brothers, Maktevich
2 CB Burns, Worley
2 S Hyde, Killebrew Sorenson
14-Team Draft - 1.07, 1.08, 1.10, 2.01, 2.07, 2.10, 3.07, 3.08, 4.07, 6.07,
Re: Is Cleveland really a bad situation?
I think Treadwell made a little bit more sense than Coleman because Cleveland needs size on the perimeter, but Coleman in a vacuum is an electric talent with more 'special traits' than Treadwell, so, I can't condemn the pick. As for Doctson, his age is an issue, especially for a team that's already planning on incubating for a few years before (hopefully) reaching a point where they can seriously compete. It's not a major issue, but small issues are magnified at selection 1.15.guyatwork37 wrote:ninotoreS wrote:They were hot garbage in 2014, when they used a first-round pick to take a clown like Manziel, and again in early 2015, when a key assistant coach for the offense broke his AA pledge and beat up his wife, leaving a 37 year old first-time OC in the lurch. i.e. Standard Factory of Sadness shenanigans. The list goes on into the distance.
But here in early 2016, they're a low expectations rebuilding roster that just hired one of the league's best ascending coaches, and pretty much killed it out there Day 1 of his regime's first draft. You know, if Bill Belichick and the Pats had traded back twice like that in a weak draft class for extra picks and still nabbed a prospect like Coleman, media pundits would be crowing about their typical Patriots genius.
We'll that's because the Patriots would have good pieces around coleman and veteran leadership and stability. Cleveland has not these things.
I'm Not saying they didn't do well with acquiring a butt load of picks. I'm saying that Cleveland is not a good situation for coleman. Would have been better for Treadwell or doctor.
Coleman deserved to be the first WR off the board, ultimately. If there's gonna be another Steve Smith Sr., Coleman fits the profile.
"I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. It’s the only way to be sure."
- Sun Tzu, 469 BCE
- Sun Tzu, 469 BCE
Re: Is Cleveland really a bad situation?
I would be the first to pile on that Cleveland has been a revolving door and dumpster fire for a long time, but playing Moneyball with draft stock already seems to be paying off. They've determined there is a lot more value trading early picks back to rounds 3-4 and future years. There seems to be a multi-year plan in place and some good chemistry in the front office. It's yet to be seen whether they can effectively evaluate talent and put together a competitive team. If this experiment is going to be successful I don't think we are going to know it until 2018-2019.
Team 1
12tm, roster=20, Start QRRWWTFKD
noppr, 1pt per 10 pass yds, 1pt per 5 rush/rec yds, All tds 6pts, milestone bonuses
QB: Murray, Minshew, Foles
RB: Coleman, Chubb, Dobbins, Henderson, Harris, Hunt, Michel
WR: Evans, Hopkins, ARob, C Samuel
TE: J Smith, Tonyan, Jarwin
DST: Seahawks, Packers
2020: 1.08, 2.08, 3.08
Team 2
12 tm superflex, roster=25, start 1-2 qb, 1-5 rb, 1-5 wr, 1-2 te, d
standard scoring, .5ppr, all tds=6pts
QB: Foles, Glennon, McCoy, Minshew, Prescott, Wentz
RB: Bell, Malcolm Brown, Cook, Duke Johnson, Kamara, Josh Kelly, Perine, Sanders
WR: Corey Davis, Evans, Fuller, Ridley, Arob, M Thomas, P Williams
TE: Hooper, Waller
DST: Ravens, Vikings
2021: 3.11
2022: 2nd, 3rd
12tm, roster=20, Start QRRWWTFKD
noppr, 1pt per 10 pass yds, 1pt per 5 rush/rec yds, All tds 6pts, milestone bonuses
QB: Murray, Minshew, Foles
RB: Coleman, Chubb, Dobbins, Henderson, Harris, Hunt, Michel
WR: Evans, Hopkins, ARob, C Samuel
TE: J Smith, Tonyan, Jarwin
DST: Seahawks, Packers
2020: 1.08, 2.08, 3.08
Team 2
12 tm superflex, roster=25, start 1-2 qb, 1-5 rb, 1-5 wr, 1-2 te, d
standard scoring, .5ppr, all tds=6pts
QB: Foles, Glennon, McCoy, Minshew, Prescott, Wentz
RB: Bell, Malcolm Brown, Cook, Duke Johnson, Kamara, Josh Kelly, Perine, Sanders
WR: Corey Davis, Evans, Fuller, Ridley, Arob, M Thomas, P Williams
TE: Hooper, Waller
DST: Ravens, Vikings
2021: 3.11
2022: 2nd, 3rd
Re: Is Cleveland really a bad situation?
is this really a question? they coined the phrase "mistake by the lake". It would literally take lebron to turn the browns around, or a lebron like talent. Not in this draft...
Re: Is Cleveland really a bad situation?
Football doesn't work like that. Basketball, sure. Football, no. One great player is never enough, even if he's an all-timer.
"I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. It’s the only way to be sure."
- Sun Tzu, 469 BCE
- Sun Tzu, 469 BCE
Re: Is Cleveland really a bad situation?
Rather than start a new thread - I have decided to bump this one up to ask the following question:
Do we believe that Cleveland will draft either/both a QB or RB early in the 2017 draft?
Assuming for a moment that they retain the same management structure and they follow the same plan that they are following today (sort of like Toronto Maple Leafs of the NHL) that suggests a strong analytics mindset & to garner as much value as possible.
So with that assumption, and the 2016 draft as a blueprint, why would they waste high draft capital on either position in 2017?
Considering the 2017 draft is supposed to be loaded with RB talent - they should be theoretically be able to wait until Round 3, if not later, to grab an RB, and unless RGIII completely flames out and Kessler is totally unprepared to play in the NFL - they would not need to draft a QB while they have needs at other positions.
Cleveland has proven in the past that building around a QB doesnt work for them. Maybe just maybe they will build their team first and add a QB that fits their mentality, rather than just grab whatever QB is this years flavour of the week.
I truly would only expect Cleveland to take an RB early if (like Coleman) someone that fits their analytics model falls to them in the 2nd round (assuming they have a top 5 picks again), or if they trade down again and garner extra draft picks.
Do we believe that Cleveland will draft either/both a QB or RB early in the 2017 draft?
Assuming for a moment that they retain the same management structure and they follow the same plan that they are following today (sort of like Toronto Maple Leafs of the NHL) that suggests a strong analytics mindset & to garner as much value as possible.
So with that assumption, and the 2016 draft as a blueprint, why would they waste high draft capital on either position in 2017?
Considering the 2017 draft is supposed to be loaded with RB talent - they should be theoretically be able to wait until Round 3, if not later, to grab an RB, and unless RGIII completely flames out and Kessler is totally unprepared to play in the NFL - they would not need to draft a QB while they have needs at other positions.
Cleveland has proven in the past that building around a QB doesnt work for them. Maybe just maybe they will build their team first and add a QB that fits their mentality, rather than just grab whatever QB is this years flavour of the week.
I truly would only expect Cleveland to take an RB early if (like Coleman) someone that fits their analytics model falls to them in the 2nd round (assuming they have a top 5 picks again), or if they trade down again and garner extra draft picks.
Please speak to clarion contrarion before considering the use of vetos..
Re: Is Cleveland really a bad situation?
I think it'll take seeing if that QB they drafted can be a game manager. I think they'd go supporting cast next year and try for a vet QB unless Kessler is doing decent. Just a thought. I do like all the low cost picks they invested in for lottery tickets, a lot of opportunity.
12 Team PPR 1QB - 1RB - 1WR - 2RB/WR - 1TE
KUPP the Balls
QB- Herbert, Hurts, Newton
RB- Montgomery, RoJo, Lindsay, Michel, Gurley, Vaughn, Foreman
WR- Lamb, Hopkins, Beckham, Metcalf, Cooks
TE- Kelce, Ertz
Picks 1.11, 2.04, 2022 1st
KUPP the Balls
QB- Herbert, Hurts, Newton
RB- Montgomery, RoJo, Lindsay, Michel, Gurley, Vaughn, Foreman
WR- Lamb, Hopkins, Beckham, Metcalf, Cooks
TE- Kelce, Ertz
Picks 1.11, 2.04, 2022 1st
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Re: Is Cleveland really a bad situation?
I think Cleveland fully planned to take Goff before St. Louis jumped ahead of them and it became clear that Goff was their target. Elliott was a potential pick for them as well after they moved down and before Dallas beat them there. I expect more of the same next year. If there is a guy available that they like, they will take him, but they're unlikely to move up to do so. I also think their position on RBs will be 100% determined on how Duke progresses in year two. I don't see them using a top ten pick on the position, but I could easily see them drop back in the first round to pick someone up if a top tier guy is available.
All I Der Is Win - 16 Team IDP League (Pass TD 6pts)
QB - Stafford, Stroud, Tune
RB - Swift, Hall, Penny, Bigsby, Ford
WR - Pittman, Olave, Di. Johnson, G. Wilson, J. Williams, Metchie, Robinson, M. Wilson
TE - Okonkwo, Schoonmaker
LB - Brooks, R. Smith, Phillips
DL - Crosby, Allen, Simmons
DB - D. James, Baker, Delpit
K - Just a stupid kicker
QB - Stafford, Stroud, Tune
RB - Swift, Hall, Penny, Bigsby, Ford
WR - Pittman, Olave, Di. Johnson, G. Wilson, J. Williams, Metchie, Robinson, M. Wilson
TE - Okonkwo, Schoonmaker
LB - Brooks, R. Smith, Phillips
DL - Crosby, Allen, Simmons
DB - D. James, Baker, Delpit
K - Just a stupid kicker
Re: Is Cleveland really a bad situation?
I think it's too early to say, but if they have a shot at a guy that can be a franchise guy I think you pull the trigger. Got to when you have the chance. At this point Watson looks to be that and I think they would, but we need to see how things play out.
As for RB, it is not a position a team that can't make a luxury pick can make. The depth is there enough that they can take one later (round 3-5) and still make out fine. If they take a QB high, perhaps they make the dive in round two with the intent of removing lots of pressure off the QB, but Duke will still be there regardless and we need to see if the others can hold down the fort as a bruiser. I can't see them doing it too two rounds.
I'm intrigued to see how their WR corps shakes out after all the players they brought in this year. Odds are only two will hit, so depth could be needed anyway, but the 'big guy' will likely be one regardless.
I think anyone degrading someone because they are Cleveland is making a mistake. We've seen how quickly things can change in a season or two. Look at Oakland or Jags as classic examples. Now everyone wants a piece of them. Some savvy moves and Cleveland could be them. Draft talent when you believe and see how things play from there. Worst case you still have talent, not someone situation dependent.
As for RB, it is not a position a team that can't make a luxury pick can make. The depth is there enough that they can take one later (round 3-5) and still make out fine. If they take a QB high, perhaps they make the dive in round two with the intent of removing lots of pressure off the QB, but Duke will still be there regardless and we need to see if the others can hold down the fort as a bruiser. I can't see them doing it too two rounds.
I'm intrigued to see how their WR corps shakes out after all the players they brought in this year. Odds are only two will hit, so depth could be needed anyway, but the 'big guy' will likely be one regardless.
I think anyone degrading someone because they are Cleveland is making a mistake. We've seen how quickly things can change in a season or two. Look at Oakland or Jags as classic examples. Now everyone wants a piece of them. Some savvy moves and Cleveland could be them. Draft talent when you believe and see how things play from there. Worst case you still have talent, not someone situation dependent.
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