What’s it going to take for blind Browns to see?

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ArrylT
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Re: What’s it going to take for blind Browns to see?

Postby ArrylT » Mon Oct 15, 2018 6:38 pm

Phaded wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 4:44 pm
The fact that you use YPC to back your arguments when it is off a 3 carry game is hilariously inept. Two words. Antone Smith.
Interestingly enough Antone Smith lasted 7 seasons in the NFL (average RB career is a shade under 3 I believe). Not relevant - just fun fact. 8-)
Please speak to clarion contrarion before considering the use of vetos..

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Re: What’s it going to take for blind Browns to see?

Postby Mjvb5 » Mon Oct 15, 2018 7:45 pm

Cameron Giles wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 5:33 pm
I think it's a mistake to analyze Chubb's 16 carries in 6 games and conclude that he'll be a better RB for them. It's a lot easier to come in the game as a change-of-pace and get off a few big runs.
Yep, its a lot easier to come in late in the game when most players are getting worn down and rip off a long run on fresher legs. Happens with a lot of COP backs. Ekeler v Gordon, Brown v Gurley, etc. Additionally there are a lot of things that take time to adjust to in the NFL, pass pro, routes, receiving, all things that any starting RB needs to be able to do.
12 team ppr 1qb 2rb 2wt 1te 1 flex 2lb 2db 2dl 1dflex
Eli manning,
A. Brown, Dez, TY Hilton,Crabtree, K. Aiken
D. Free, Howard, Ingram, demarco, AP, Powell
Kelce
Cam Jordan,Calais Campbell, Suh, Heyward, Sheard
Ogletree, Davis, Poz,Ragland, Woodyard, Misi, Demario Davis, Casillas
, Cyprien, Chancellor,

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Re: What’s it going to take for blind Browns to see?

Postby BigBawseRoss » Tue Oct 16, 2018 7:23 am

FantasyFreak wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 3:04 pm
TheRookiePro wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 2:58 pm
Yeah this is nothing compared to the ignorant incompetent mess that is Mike McCarthy's retainment of Aaron Jones.

Glad my team completely owned on Sunday without having to start Jones tonight. I'd become infuriated with his lack of usage. All that kid does, is pick up chunks of yardage and then ride the bench on the next drive.
It's because he doesn't do anything well when he doesn't have the ball. That's the reality. Missing assignments, not pass protecting well etc. will do that.
is this actually true? i dont believe that it is
team 1
12 team, 1 pt for 4 rec, 0.1 per rush
1qb, 3 rb, 4 wr, te, k, 4 idp
Rivers , Tyrod
Cohen, L Miller, CollinsD Freeman, Bibbs, Foreman,J. Allen, ty mont,Ballage
K Allen, Evans, Hopkins, AlshonM. Williams, doctson,KeKe,MVS,Hamilton
Ertz Graham

team 2
12 team .5ppr
qb, 2 rb, 2 wr, te, flx,flx,
Trubitsky,Bortles, Dak
Fournette,Mixon,D Henry, Chubb, Foreman, Yeldon,Gio,smallwood
Ty Hill, Hopkins, K Allen,Watkins, D Thomas, Arob, M Williams, Edleman, Doctson
Gronk, Ertz


team 3
http://www61.myfantasyleague.com/2018/o ... =07&F=0008

team 4
https://www55.myfantasyleague.com/2018/ ... =07&F=0010

team 5
http://www57.myfantasyleague.com/2018/o ... =0008&O=07

team 6
http://www54.myfantasyleague.com/2018/o ... =07&F=0004

team 7
https://www51.myfantasyleague.com/2018/ ... =07&F=0011

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Re: What’s it going to take for blind Browns to see?

Postby BigBawseRoss » Tue Oct 16, 2018 7:29 am

Phaded wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 4:44 pm
lol This is hilarious when some fantasy owners act like they are the greatest personnel evaluators.

Hyde is not bad - and there is way more to being a running back than how a running back looks as a change of pace back.

Chubb has a lot to learn. When a player cannot even pick up his special teams blocks you are not gonna put him next to Baker.

Where were you last week when he had 2 yards?
Oh right, that would be inconvenient to your argument.

The fact that you use YPC to back your arguments when it is off a 3 carry game is hilariously inept. Two words. Antone Smith.
i think the guy just has his eyes open and can see chubb is a great runner. i doubt very highly this gentleman thinks he is the greatest personnel evaluator, im sure he felt the same way when chubb had only 2 carries for 2 yards, also doubt he is hilariously inept because he referenced stats to back his argument. simply wanted to discuss why chubb wasnt getting the usage he deserves based on how good he has looked with limited touches.

the answer in my opinion is the coach sucks and they dont wanna win too much, just instill hope in the fanbase
team 1
12 team, 1 pt for 4 rec, 0.1 per rush
1qb, 3 rb, 4 wr, te, k, 4 idp
Rivers , Tyrod
Cohen, L Miller, CollinsD Freeman, Bibbs, Foreman,J. Allen, ty mont,Ballage
K Allen, Evans, Hopkins, AlshonM. Williams, doctson,KeKe,MVS,Hamilton
Ertz Graham

team 2
12 team .5ppr
qb, 2 rb, 2 wr, te, flx,flx,
Trubitsky,Bortles, Dak
Fournette,Mixon,D Henry, Chubb, Foreman, Yeldon,Gio,smallwood
Ty Hill, Hopkins, K Allen,Watkins, D Thomas, Arob, M Williams, Edleman, Doctson
Gronk, Ertz


team 3
http://www61.myfantasyleague.com/2018/o ... =07&F=0008

team 4
https://www55.myfantasyleague.com/2018/ ... =07&F=0010

team 5
http://www57.myfantasyleague.com/2018/o ... =0008&O=07

team 6
http://www54.myfantasyleague.com/2018/o ... =07&F=0004

team 7
https://www51.myfantasyleague.com/2018/ ... =07&F=0011

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Re: What’s it going to take for blind Browns to see?

Postby kris_kapsner » Tue Oct 16, 2018 8:16 am

BigBawseRoss wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 7:29 am
Phaded wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 4:44 pm
lol This is hilarious when some fantasy owners act like they are the greatest personnel evaluators.

Hyde is not bad - and there is way more to being a running back than how a running back looks as a change of pace back.

Chubb has a lot to learn. When a player cannot even pick up his special teams blocks you are not gonna put him next to Baker.

Where were you last week when he had 2 yards?
Oh right, that would be inconvenient to your argument.

The fact that you use YPC to back your arguments when it is off a 3 carry game is hilariously inept. Two words. Antone Smith.
i think the guy just has his eyes open and can see chubb is a great runner. i doubt very highly this gentleman thinks he is the greatest personnel evaluator, im sure he felt the same way when chubb had only 2 carries for 2 yards, also doubt he is hilariously inept because he referenced stats to back his argument. simply wanted to discuss why chubb wasnt getting the usage he deserves based on how good he has looked with limited touches.

the answer in my opinion is the coach sucks and they dont wanna win too much, just instill hope in the fanbase
Thank you BBR.

Yes, this isn't a matter of me saying I'm some "God's gift to scouting". Not sure where that sentiment was stated in what I said. I'm simply posing a question regarding both Chubb, and Duke for that matter, are looking better than Hyde and yet Hyde continues to get almost every carry.

Last game: 14 for Hyde compared to Duke and Chubb combining for 5 carries. 14-5 carries!!! Yet, the 5 carries from Chubb and Duke produced 61 yards while Hyde's 14 carries produced 35 yards.

These stats are hard to ignore. And the stats aren't an outlier, they are the norm for the year.

Hyde has yet to have a single run that looks "elite".

Yet Chubb had 2 in the same game when he went for 105 yards and 2 TD's on 3 carries.

If that game was an outlier, I'd drink my coffee and continue patiently waiting. But it's not. Game after game Chubb is rushing for more than 7 yards per carry on 2-3 touches while Hyde is rushing for less than 3 yards per carry in half his games and only one game he averaged just over 4 yards per carry.

If someone wants to make an argument that the game situations were different for the players, so be it. That's fine. I'm just stating facts.

Another fact, multiple weeks the coaches have said that Chubb is running so well that they need to get him more touches. They haven't. Someone stated earlier that Chubb's usage went up from 2 carries to 3 after his big game. That's actually not the case. Here are the touches over his 6 games: 3, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3

There is no excuse for drafting a RB in the beginning of the 2nd round of the NFL draft, seeing him out produce your starting RB game after game on a per touch basis and not getting him involved more. If the coaches love Hyde, so be it. I think he's a good player. But he's not great. And Chubb continues to flash greatness with a run or two nearly every week. Yet, we don't see them ease into 5-7 carries just to see what he can produce with a little more volume.

Honestly, side tangient, I think the Browns should take the shackles off and trade Hyde to the Eagles for a 3rd and let it be the Duke and Chubb show. They should put their best players on the field together, which means both RB's at the same time. Move Duke all over to work out of the slot at times, out wide or in the backfield with Chubb together at times. Get a 3rd for Hyde and start demanding that Todd Haley gets creative. But, we shall see.

Bottom line though, Nick Chubb has an elite skill set which he showed in college and at the combine. He's showed it on the field when they actually give him the ball. They drafted him with a high 2nd round pick, just 4 picks after 1st round draft choice Sony Michel...which means he's drafted to be a starter and has only shown himself to be capable in that role.

The only thing that makes ANY sense is that the Browns have already given up on their season and they are going to run Hyde down this year before handing Chubb the keys to the car next year after they have one more off season of rebuilding planned. Anything else just doesn't make sense to me.
16 team PPR Est. 2002 (Champion: 2007, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2016)
Start: QB, 2-4WR, 2-3RB, 1-2TE, K, D
QB: Brady, Stafford
RB: Barkley, Mixon, Chubb, G. Bernard, Scarbrough
WR: Fitz, Dez, AJ Green, Gordon, Watkins, D. Thomas, Fuller, Crabtree, Stills
TE: Kelce, Seals-Jones
K: Fairbairn
D: Baltimore

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Re: What’s it going to take for blind Browns to see?

Postby Mefisto » Tue Oct 16, 2018 8:34 am

We get it, you've got a chub for Chubb. I like the guy and think he has a bright future but he still has a lot to learn. You seem to ignore everything that's been said contrary to your view so far. Everything you say is nice and all but you cannot extrapolate production of a full work load from 2 runs a game. What happens when he's not playing completely fresh against tired defenses? You think he's going to maintain that 10.8 YPC average?

One point you ignore is Chubb plays real football and not fantasy football. His statline is not the be all end all indicator of game readiness. Being a good running back is about more than just YPC and Chubb seems to be struggling with blocking. Do you know what will happen if they install him full time before he learns to pass block? They risk the health of the player they think is their franchise QB that will carry this team for 15 years. Until he learns to pass block he cannot be trusted on anything but run plays. If Baker is who they hope he is, then he is much, much more valuable to the organization than the best Chubb can be.
12 Team Non-PPR league. 2QB, 2RB, 3WR, 1RB/WR, 1TE, 1K, 1DL, 1LB, 1DB, 2DL/LB/DB
QB: Brady, Stafford, Mariota, Tannehill
RB: L. Miller, A. Collins, K. Drake, R. Freeman, K. Dixon, D. Foreman, D. Murray, J. Allen, Gore
WR: Hopkins, ARob, S. Diggs, D. Parker, M. Lee, J. Matthews, T. Lockett, D. Pettis, Callaway
TE: T. Kelce, E. Ebron, C. Brate
K: Bailey, Coons, Boswell
DL: D. Hunter, R. Quinn, D. Lawrence
LB: Von Miller, A. Ogletree, B. Wagner T. Edmunds
DB: H. Smith, J. Cyprien, L. Collins
2017 Superbowl Champion

10 Team PPR League. Start QB, 2RB, 2WR, TE, 1Superflex, 1Flex, 2DL, 2LB, 2DB, 3DFlex
QB: Luck, Goff, Trubisky, Prescott, Tannehill
RB: Gurley, Mixon, Barkley, D. Foreman
WR: Kupp, Cooper, C. Davis, Parker, T. Lockett, Kupp, W. Fuller, Sutton, John Brown, Callaway
TE: Kelce, Burton
DL: D. Lawrence, Ogunjobi, Ansah, M. Davenport
LB: L. Kuechly, T. Smith, Kiko Alonso, T. Edmunds, J. Smith, R. Foster
DB: Clinton-Dix, D. James, T. Edmunds, M. Jenkins

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Re: What’s it going to take for blind Browns to see?

Postby LestForce » Tue Oct 16, 2018 10:07 am

FantasyFreak wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 3:04 pm
TheRookiePro wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 2:58 pm
Yeah this is nothing compared to the ignorant incompetent mess that is Mike McCarthy's retainment of Aaron Jones.

Glad my team completely owned on Sunday without having to start Jones tonight. I'd become infuriated with his lack of usage. All that kid does, is pick up chunks of yardage and then ride the bench on the next drive.
It's because he doesn't do anything well when he doesn't have the ball. That's the reality. Missing assignments, not pass protecting well etc. will do that.
That’s a bad narrative. Aaron Jones has graded better than Jamaal Williams this season in pass protection. Might have been the case heading into the season, but has been disproven.
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QB: Mitch Trubisky, Derek Carr, Case Keenum
RB: Carlos Hyde, Isaiah Crowell, Bilal , Alfred Blue, Kyle Juszczyk, Chris Ivory, Mark Walton, Deandre Washington, Bilal Powell (IR) Corey Grant (IR)
WR: Adam Thielen, Allen Robinson, DJ Moore, Taylor Gabriel, Willie Snead, Robby Anderson, Pierre Garcon, Rishard Matthews, Terrelle Pryor, Ryan Grant, Jaron Brown, Adam Humphries, Damion Ratley, Kevin White, Bruce Ellington (IR)
TE: Jordan Reed, Cameron Brate, Mike Gisecki, Ed Dickson, Tyler Eifert (IR)
DL: Myles Garrett, JPP, Akiem Hicks, Geno Atkins, Chris Jones, Mario Addison, David Irving
LB: Luke Kuechly, Lavonte David, Khalil Mack, Avery Williamson, Mason Foster, Harold Landry, Matt Judon, Haason Reddick
DB: Adoree Jackson, Damontae Kazee, Tony Jefferson, Malik Hooker, Darius Slay, Jason McCourty, Damarious Randall, Keanu Neal (IR), Matthias Farley (IR)

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Re: What’s it going to take for blind Browns to see?

Postby Valhalla » Tue Oct 16, 2018 11:52 am

Mefisto wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 8:34 am
...Until he learns to pass block he cannot be trusted on anything but run plays. If Baker is who they hope he is, then he is much, much more valuable to the organization than the best Chubb can be.
Pretty much this. I think Chubb will be good. I'm assuming Haley would play him more if he were showing well in his protections in practice. It could just be that the coaching in Cleveland is better suited for high school, though.

Is Duke known for being bad in protecting the QB? Is Hyde known for being great at it? Anyone have more knowledge on these questions?

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Re: What’s it going to take for blind Browns to see?

Postby Mjvb5 » Tue Oct 16, 2018 11:59 am

Side tangent on the side tangent, I don't think they could get a third for Hyde from the Eagles. Probably looking for more like a fifth at best, don't see a point in giving a third for Hyde when Howard could probably be had for a 2nd or Bell for a 2nd and a guy.
12 team ppr 1qb 2rb 2wt 1te 1 flex 2lb 2db 2dl 1dflex
Eli manning,
A. Brown, Dez, TY Hilton,Crabtree, K. Aiken
D. Free, Howard, Ingram, demarco, AP, Powell
Kelce
Cam Jordan,Calais Campbell, Suh, Heyward, Sheard
Ogletree, Davis, Poz,Ragland, Woodyard, Misi, Demario Davis, Casillas
, Cyprien, Chancellor,

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Re: What’s it going to take for blind Browns to see?

Postby Valhalla » Tue Oct 16, 2018 12:10 pm

Mjvb5 wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 11:59 am
Side tangent on the side tangent, I don't think they could get a third for Hyde from the Eagles. Probably looking for more like a fifth at best, don't see a point in giving a third for Hyde when Howard could probably be had for a 2nd or Bell for a 2nd and a guy.
Agreed.
Although...Bell can't sign with any team until after the season. He's purely a rental. Teams can't trade for and then sign him.
Although...if a team traded for him and used him as a rental (and Bell actually tried), it wouldn't be so bad to pay a 2nd considering the team would likely be compensated a 3rd when he is lost to free agency.

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Re: What’s it going to take for blind Browns to see?

Postby Mjvb5 » Tue Oct 16, 2018 1:08 pm

Valhalla wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 12:10 pm
Mjvb5 wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 11:59 am
Side tangent on the side tangent, I don't think they could get a third for Hyde from the Eagles. Probably looking for more like a fifth at best, don't see a point in giving a third for Hyde when Howard could probably be had for a 2nd or Bell for a 2nd and a guy.
Agreed.
Although...Bell can't sign with any team until after the season. He's purely a rental. Teams can't trade for and then sign him.
Although...if a team traded for him and used him as a rental (and Bell actually tried), it wouldn't be so bad to pay a 2nd considering the team would likely be compensated a 3rd when he is lost to free agency.
Yeah, I don't know the exact metrics of how the compensatory picks work... but he should sign something around 5yr for 75M if I had to guess plus the multiple pro bowls and all pro awards, should net someone a third unless they go and make a major splash in FA to counterbalance it (say signing Lawrence, Taylor Lewan, Jake Matthews, or Clowney)
12 team ppr 1qb 2rb 2wt 1te 1 flex 2lb 2db 2dl 1dflex
Eli manning,
A. Brown, Dez, TY Hilton,Crabtree, K. Aiken
D. Free, Howard, Ingram, demarco, AP, Powell
Kelce
Cam Jordan,Calais Campbell, Suh, Heyward, Sheard
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, Cyprien, Chancellor,

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Re: What’s it going to take for blind Browns to see?

Postby lukkynumber13 » Tue Oct 16, 2018 1:10 pm

Phaded wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 4:44 pm
lol This is hilarious when some fantasy owners act like they are the greatest personnel evaluators.

Hyde is not bad - and there is way more to being a running back than how a running back looks as a change of pace back.

Chubb has a lot to learn. When a player cannot even pick up his special teams blocks you are not gonna put him next to Baker.

Where were you last week when he had 2 yards?
Oh right, that would be inconvenient to your argument.

The fact that you use YPC to back your arguments when it is off a 3 carry game is hilariously inept. Two words. Antone Smith.
Very well said.

By this logic, the idiot Charger coaches need to give Ekeler a 50% share of the carries because he’s obviously a stud too.

It’s very common for a 2nd string RB to have a stronger YPC than the workhorse who has to do the dirty work grind stuff.

I was gonna mention Ben Tate behind Arian Foster as the best example of this, but Smith is actually PERFECT.
T1
LUCK, Flacco, J Allen, Beathard
MIXON, AP, Collins, Ajayi, D Martin, Chase E, R Smith, Cannon
EVANS/HILL/DIGGS/KA/HILTON, ARob, Sammy, C Davis, Tre'Quan, Pascal, Inman
GRONK, Vance, Herndon, Shaheen
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DL: CHANDLER/FLOWERS/SHORT, Golden, Addison, Okafor, Sheard, Larry O, Malik J, Matt I
LB: KENDRICKS/WARNER/ZACH C, Schobert, Williamson, R Evans, Walker, KJW, Bynes, Kyzir, Young
DB: ADDAE/AMOS/SIMMONS, John J, Kazee, TJ Mac, Diggs

T2
RIVERS, Jimmy G, Dalton, Eli
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ENGRAM, Doyle, Vance, Herndon, Higbee, Everett, Maxx, Heuerman, Hollister
-
DL: BUCKNER/BARNETT/GRIFFEN/HEYWARD, Golden, Short, Ogbah, Wolfe, T Bryan, Autry, Spence, Simon, Wilkerson, Horton
LB: BURFICT/WARNER/HITCHENS, Danny T, KJW, Ebukam, Walker, Vince W, M Lee
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Re: What’s it going to take for blind Browns to see?

Postby kris_kapsner » Tue Oct 16, 2018 1:59 pm

lukkynumber13 wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 1:10 pm
Phaded wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 4:44 pm
lol This is hilarious when some fantasy owners act like they are the greatest personnel evaluators.

Hyde is not bad - and there is way more to being a running back than how a running back looks as a change of pace back.

Chubb has a lot to learn. When a player cannot even pick up his special teams blocks you are not gonna put him next to Baker.

Where were you last week when he had 2 yards?
Oh right, that would be inconvenient to your argument.

The fact that you use YPC to back your arguments when it is off a 3 carry game is hilariously inept. Two words. Antone Smith.
Very well said.

By this logic, the idiot Charger coaches need to give Ekeler a 50% share of the carries because he’s obviously a stud too.

It’s very common for a 2nd string RB to have a stronger YPC than the workhorse who has to do the dirty work grind stuff.

I was gonna mention Ben Tate behind Arian Foster as the best example of this, but Smith is actually PERFECT.
Are you really making an argument that Hyde is on the same level as a player as Gordon for the Chargers?

Ok, I will fully admit Hyde is a better pass blocker than Chubb. I'm guessing at that due to Hyde's experience in the NFL. That's a fair reason to still have him in there as the starter. Playing time is not just about running the ball.

And no, you guys that are saying I'm trying to extrapolate Chubb's 10+ yards per carry into 1000 yards already if he was given the ball 100 times. You're not actually reading what I'm writing then. And that's ok.

But, what I'm saying is Chubb was the bell cow in college and looked like a stud. He was so good that he made Georgia forget about Todd Gurley. He's done nothing in the NFL to indicate that that confidence in him was unfounded. The guy is a stud. If you disagree, you disagree. No worries.
16 team PPR Est. 2002 (Champion: 2007, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2016)
Start: QB, 2-4WR, 2-3RB, 1-2TE, K, D
QB: Brady, Stafford
RB: Barkley, Mixon, Chubb, G. Bernard, Scarbrough
WR: Fitz, Dez, AJ Green, Gordon, Watkins, D. Thomas, Fuller, Crabtree, Stills
TE: Kelce, Seals-Jones
K: Fairbairn
D: Baltimore

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Re: What’s it going to take for blind Browns to see?

Postby Phaded » Tue Oct 16, 2018 2:52 pm

https://youtu.be/yYRJ14CpzQI

First clip of this video.

And you wonder why they do not trust him on the field more?
Do not join a league that has a veto option, it will be your funeral.
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Re: What’s it going to take for blind Browns to see?

Postby Mefisto » Tue Oct 16, 2018 3:09 pm

Phaded wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 2:52 pm
https://youtu.be/yYRJ14CpzQI

First clip of this video.

And you wonder why they do not trust him on the field more?
I dunno man, he nearly juked that defender out of his shoes.
12 Team Non-PPR league. 2QB, 2RB, 3WR, 1RB/WR, 1TE, 1K, 1DL, 1LB, 1DB, 2DL/LB/DB
QB: Brady, Stafford, Mariota, Tannehill
RB: L. Miller, A. Collins, K. Drake, R. Freeman, K. Dixon, D. Foreman, D. Murray, J. Allen, Gore
WR: Hopkins, ARob, S. Diggs, D. Parker, M. Lee, J. Matthews, T. Lockett, D. Pettis, Callaway
TE: T. Kelce, E. Ebron, C. Brate
K: Bailey, Coons, Boswell
DL: D. Hunter, R. Quinn, D. Lawrence
LB: Von Miller, A. Ogletree, B. Wagner T. Edmunds
DB: H. Smith, J. Cyprien, L. Collins
2017 Superbowl Champion

10 Team PPR League. Start QB, 2RB, 2WR, TE, 1Superflex, 1Flex, 2DL, 2LB, 2DB, 3DFlex
QB: Luck, Goff, Trubisky, Prescott, Tannehill
RB: Gurley, Mixon, Barkley, D. Foreman
WR: Kupp, Cooper, C. Davis, Parker, T. Lockett, Kupp, W. Fuller, Sutton, John Brown, Callaway
TE: Kelce, Burton
DL: D. Lawrence, Ogunjobi, Ansah, M. Davenport
LB: L. Kuechly, T. Smith, Kiko Alonso, T. Edmunds, J. Smith, R. Foster
DB: Clinton-Dix, D. James, T. Edmunds, M. Jenkins


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