Am I crazy to think this may be collusion?

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WhatWouldDitkaDo
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Re: Am I crazy to think this may be collusion?

Postby WhatWouldDitkaDo » Fri May 26, 2017 1:45 pm

mmyers69 wrote: Fri May 26, 2017 1:04 pmAnd to the last poster, WhatWouldDitkaDo, your evaluations are ridiculous. Rodgers is not equal to 1.09 and Allen Robinson is not equal to 1.02. (They are both way more valuable than their respective picks)
That's your opinion. I would take McCaffrey over Robinson as of right now.
mmyers69 wrote: Fri May 26, 2017 1:04 pmOn May 17 I offered team Dolphins this trade:
Tyrell Williams and 2018 2nd round pick (most likely early pick but possibly mid round) for Team Dolphins’ 2017 1.09
I'd take the 1.09 here, so not shocking that "colluding" owner declined your offer.
mmyers69 wrote: Fri May 26, 2017 1:04 pmMy counter was this: Golden Tate, my 2018 2nd round pick FOR Team Dolphins’ 2017 1.09, Eddie Lacy
Also, I would take the 1.09 + Lacy side in this trade by a little.

Sounds like your league is ripping on this owner for valuing players differently from the rest of you guys...
Kittles Pox | Championships: 2015, 2017
12-Team PPR | QB, 2RB, 2WR, TE, W/R/T, K, DST
QB: Kyler Murray, Aaron Rodgers
RB: Christian McCaffrey, Melvin Gordon, James Conner, Phillip Lindsay, Tevin Coleman, Boston Scott, Benny Snell Jr.
WR: Tyreek Hill, Mike Evans, Cooper Kupp, Michael Gallup, Christian Kirk
TE: George Kittle, Travis Kelce | K: Younghoe Koo | DST: SF
PS: Mecole Hardman, Tony Pollard | 2020 Picks: 1.09, 2.10, 3.03 | 2021 Picks: 1st, 2nd

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Re: Am I crazy to think this may be collusion?

Postby FiremanEd » Fri May 26, 2017 1:50 pm

I had written a response earlier, but apparently since new posts had been made since I started it and I hit submit and closed the browser, it didn't come through...
nick.ciccone wrote: Thu May 25, 2017 6:59 am The final breakdown after you combine both trades is...

Eagles get: 1.01, 1.09, Amari Cooper, Allen Robinson, Aaron Rodgers, Carson Wentz, Doug Martin.
Dolphins get: 1.02, 2019 1st, Jay Ajayi, Dak Prescott, Kamar Aiken.
Regarding the above, i think it is an inaccurate depiction of the situation, which has been stated, as the 1.01 and 1.09 should be removed from the equation given they exchanged hands both times. The true comparison of sides is;

Eagles get: Amari Cooper, Allen Robinson, Aaron Rodgers, Carson Wentz, Doug Martin.
Dolphins get: 1.02, 2019 1st, Jay Ajayi, Dak Prescott, Kamar Aiken

This doesn't change the fact that it is of questionable equality, but I suppose one could argue the following if they were so inclined (whether due to true opinion or to cover up collusion depending which side of the fence you're on);

Cooper = 1.02 / Corey Davis --> Cooper holds more value today for sure, but Corey Davis could be his equal in the future
Allen Robinson = Jay Ajayi --> Down year, Fournette added, and some people truly value RB production since it is harder to come by
Rodgers = 2019 1st --> Wanted a 1st in 1QB league and is willing to run with Dak (and someone on roster?)
Wentz = Dak --> Pick a side and cross fingers
Martin = Aiken --> Who knows who will be viable and for how long...

Now, i would take Cooper, ARob, Rodgers, and Martin in each scenario...this is just me playing devils advocate. It does seem far fetched that this big a leap would occur on each of these instances though, and no doubt odd that any team would be willing to move this many big time assets so quickly. Toss in the fact that two picks went back and forth and I think the commissioner is correct to be investigating the matter further, if nothing more than to do his due diligence for the league. Collusion is rare, but also is never as obvious as Cooper for 3.01.

A tough decision is required either way here, and it will come down to tough judgement and/or league group decision on how to proceed. They won't want it veto'd (as i agree leagues shouldn't veto) and may leave if done, but on the other side it may be simply cleaner for the league to remove both if there is now a storm cloud that will hang over the league, which is never a good thing. Only the league itself can decide. Expect departures either voluntary or forced if veto'd though.

Edit: Was re-reading and noticed accidentally put 'should' and not 'shouldnt' for the bolder above. Damn autocorrect.
Last edited by FiremanEd on Sun May 28, 2017 4:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Am I crazy to think this may be collusion?

Postby mmyers69 » Fri May 26, 2017 4:14 pm

I very clearly wrote that he (Dolphins) never declined any of my trades. I revoked them. And I didn't post trade proposals to demean the way he values players, only to support the overall discussion. I do think the trade he (Dolphins) offered me twice was very bad, and that it was strange to offer the exact trade a second time when I had declined initially with a comment as to why. Giving up Amari Cooper, Aaron Rodgers, Doug Martin and Allen Robinson for Jay Ajayi, Kamar Aiken, 1.02, and 2019 1st is more than just a difference of opinion in value. It's a massively unfair trade. Nothing anyone says here would change my mind about that and I didn't post to change anyone's mind. But I do appreciate other's input and I think the matter is basically resolved.

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Re: Am I crazy to think this may be collusion?

Postby _yeti » Fri May 26, 2017 4:35 pm

mmyers69 wrote: Fri May 26, 2017 1:04 pm Hey guys, another owner sent me a link to this forum. As an owner myself in this league I wanted to give some input on attempted transactions with both of these owners. I’m of the opinion that there was collusion and that it’s not simply innocent stupidity. But I want to give some facts to help make this situation a little clearer, if possible. Before I get into details I will say that team Dolphins in this situation never once offered me a trade OTHER than the one listed below. And to the last poster, WhatWouldDitkaDo, your evaluations are ridiculous. Rodgers is not equal to 1.09 and Allen Robinson is not equal to 1.02. (They are both way more valuable than their respective picks)

On May 17 I offered team Dolphins this trade:

Tyrell Williams and 2018 2nd round pick (most likely early pick but possibly mid round) for Team Dolphins’ 2017 1.09

On the same day (only 30 minutes after my proposal), team Dolphins then proposed this trade, without commenting or rejecting/accepting my trade:

Team Dolphins offers Jerick McKinnon, Latavius Murrary, Cole Beasley, Tyler Boyd, Seth Roberts, 2017 1.09, 2018 round 2 pick FOR my 2018 1st round pick (likely early), Corey Coleman, Golden Tate

The trade came with a comment: Let me know what you think you could use the RB help. Two days later I rejected this trade for obvious reasons. I countered with a comment telling him it was way too much for me to give up.

My counter was this: Golden Tate, my 2018 2nd round pick FOR Team Dolphins’ 2017 1.09, Eddie Lacy

I then revoked the earlier trade (Williams/2nd rounder for his 1.09), which was only 2 days after its proposal. But I figured he had seen it and ignored it since he offered me a different trade. Three days later he proposed the SAME exact trade he had before with the SAME exact comment, even after I rejected with the comment telling him it was way too much for me to give up. I rejected it a day later. The second time I rejected the SAME trade. Then, the next day, I revoked the trade for Lacey and his 2017 1.09 since he had ignored the previous trade and sent me the same trade twice, when I had rejected initially with a comment as to why. This all took place after team Dolphins had already given up Amari Cooper and Rodgers, but it was before team Dolphins then gave up Wentz, Martin and Robinson.


On May 23 I proposed a trade to team Eagles: Tyrell Williams, C.J. Anderson and my 2018 1st round pick FOR team Eagles’ 2017 1.02….I then revoked this trade a little after 24 hours because I didn’t feel comfortable with it. There was no response from team Eagles, but it was only a day later. So I proposed another trade. It was: Tyrell Williams and my 2018 3rd round pick for Team Eagles’ 2017 1.11. Team Eagles rejected this trade 2 hours after I proposed it, with no comment or counter. This was the night before team Eagles and team Dolphins made their 2nd trade.

To me, it seems as if team Dolphins is obviously trying to help team Eagles. His team (Eagles) got drastically better and still has the number one pick in this years draft. Team Dolphins lost some studs but gained the number two pick in this years draft and a 1st rounder in 2019. I don’t think collusion is subjective. They either did or they didn’t. It can never be proven 100%, we can only judge based on their league activity and/or attempted transactions with these owners. The fact that they are friends IRL is also at play but not proof of collusion. But did team Dolphins really think I’d go for his awful proposal? If so, then maybe this is all a case of ignorance/stupidity. But why, then, did he seemingly ignore my trades and propose the same trade twice after I’d explained my initial rejection? Why did they trade the 1.01 and 1.09 picks only to give them back? Thanks to everyone giving valuable input and thanks to Nick for running the league and trying to deal with this, even if we might not agree.
"At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."

"Tyrell Williams and 2018 2nd round pick (most likely early pick but possibly mid round) for Team Dolphins’ 2017 1.09"

So? That's not some great offer. I'd decline it.

On the same day (only 30 minutes after my proposal), team Dolphins then proposed this trade, without commenting or rejecting/accepting my trade:

Team Dolphins offers Jerick McKinnon, Latavius Murrary, Cole Beasley, Tyler Boyd, Seth Roberts, 2017 1.09, 2018 round 2 pick FOR my 2018 1st round pick (likely early), Corey Coleman, Golden Tate

The trade came with a comment: Let me know what you think you could use the RB help. Two days later I rejected this trade for obvious reasons. I countered with a comment telling him it was way too much for me to give up.

My counter was this: Golden Tate, my 2018 2nd round pick FOR Team Dolphins’ 2017 1.09, Eddie Lacy


Again, SO? That's a plenty fair offer he sent you, you might not like it but it isn't so *obvious*. Your counter is horrible and I would reject it.

"On May 23 I proposed a trade to team Eagles: Tyrell Williams, C.J. Anderson and my 2018 1st round pick FOR team Eagles’ 2017 1.02….I then revoked this trade a little after 24 hours because I didn’t feel comfortable with it."


Your offer is trash and not worth 1.2. So he should give up 1.2 in a STACKED class for the addition of a waiver wire guy who performed when their #1 was out, who is now back, and they added another top WR option. On top of that an oft injured UDFA veteran who is competing with a great veteran (Charles) and a young buck (Booker)? That and an as yet undetermined pick a year out is worth 1.2? Ridiculous. And then YOU revoked it bc you thought YOU were giving too much which is hilarious to me.

So I proposed another trade. It was: Tyrell Williams and my 2018 3rd round pick for Team Eagles’ 2017 1.11. Team Eagles rejected this trade 2 hours after I proposed it, with no comment or counter. This was the night before team Eagles and team Dolphins made their 2nd trade.

Again, SO?! You are so eager to trade Williams, a WR who (though I am a big fan) has some serious question marks going forward. Maybe he doesn't want him for the same reasons you are desperate to unload him? Maybe he wants a player like Njoku instead (who I got at 13 and VASTLY prefer).

I wasn't sold one way or the other on the original post but now I am pretty sure it is above board and your league is whiny and super overly controlling. I think you should stick around the forums as it might loosen you up a bit or at least stop you from getting offended that your bad offers aren't accepted. Offers that you are cold offering btw with no communication, which is the laziest way to go about a negotiation if you can even call it that and not usually very successful in my experience.
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QB: J. Fields, B. Mayfield, G. Smith, M. Mariota, S. Darnold
RB: T. Etienne, T. Pollard, S. Barkley, J.Jacobs A. Jones, , A. Gibson, D. Harris, Z. Moss, E. Elliott
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DL: M. Parsons, Q. Williams, D. Buckner, R. Gary
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Re: Am I crazy to think this may be collusion?

Postby Never Veto1 » Fri May 26, 2017 4:53 pm

StableOfRBs wrote: Fri May 26, 2017 9:42 am
Never Veto wrote: Fri May 26, 2017 9:15 am
StableOfRBs wrote: Fri May 26, 2017 8:05 am

seriously, if it was last year with a guy like Zeke on the board then I could understand making the move from 1.2 to 1.1 but this year there's no outlier player so I see very little difference in value between the picks, certainly not enough to take it into consideration
We can revisit this in 9 months and see.
I'd agree with you if they were drafting 9 months from now, too many things can happen between now and then to tell if the guy at 1.1 and guy at 1.2 are really that different in value, just look at how Gurley and Gordon changed in value their rookie year and then again last year
I'm all in on Fournette, so I think he'll be head and shoulders above the rest, I guess that's why I say we can revisit in 9 months.
20 Team Superflex (1/2 PPR / 6pt TD's)
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Re: Am I crazy to think this may be collusion?

Postby FiremanEd » Fri May 26, 2017 5:08 pm

_yeti wrote: Fri May 26, 2017 4:35 pm"At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."

"Tyrell Williams and 2018 2nd round pick (most likely early pick but possibly mid round) for Team Dolphins’ 2017 1.09"

So? That's not some great offer. I'd decline it.

On the same day (only 30 minutes after my proposal), team Dolphins then proposed this trade, without commenting or rejecting/accepting my trade:

Team Dolphins offers Jerick McKinnon, Latavius Murrary, Cole Beasley, Tyler Boyd, Seth Roberts, 2017 1.09, 2018 round 2 pick FOR my 2018 1st round pick (likely early), Corey Coleman, Golden Tate

The trade came with a comment: Let me know what you think you could use the RB help. Two days later I rejected this trade for obvious reasons. I countered with a comment telling him it was way too much for me to give up.

My counter was this: Golden Tate, my 2018 2nd round pick FOR Team Dolphins’ 2017 1.09, Eddie Lacy


Again, SO? That's a plenty fair offer he sent you, you might not like it but it isn't so *obvious*. Your counter is horrible and I would reject it.

"On May 23 I proposed a trade to team Eagles: Tyrell Williams, C.J. Anderson and my 2018 1st round pick FOR team Eagles’ 2017 1.02….I then revoked this trade a little after 24 hours because I didn’t feel comfortable with it."


Your offer is trash and not worth 1.2. So he should give up 1.2 in a STACKED class for the addition of a waiver wire guy who performed when their #1 was out, who is now back, and they added another top WR option. On top of that an oft injured UDFA veteran who is competing with a great veteran (Charles) and a young buck (Booker)? That and an as yet undetermined pick a year out is worth 1.2? Ridiculous. And then YOU revoked it bc you thought YOU were giving too much which is hilarious to me.

So I proposed another trade. It was: Tyrell Williams and my 2018 3rd round pick for Team Eagles’ 2017 1.11. Team Eagles rejected this trade 2 hours after I proposed it, with no comment or counter. This was the night before team Eagles and team Dolphins made their 2nd trade.

Again, SO?! You are so eager to trade Williams, a WR who (though I am a big fan) has some serious question marks going forward. Maybe he doesn't want him for the same reasons you are desperate to unload him? Maybe he wants a player like Njoku instead (who I got at 13 and VASTLY prefer).

I wasn't sold one way or the other on the original post but now I am pretty sure it is above board and your league is whiny and super overly controlling. I think you should stick around the forums as it might loosen you up a bit or at least stop you from getting offended that your bad offers aren't accepted. Offers that you are cold offering btw with no communication, which is the laziest way to go about a negotiation if you can even call it that and not usually very successful in my experience.
Seems to me someone really wanted to hear themself talk. You actually think this is any sort of decent offer?

Team Dolphins offers Jerick McKinnon, Latavius Murrary, Cole Beasley, Tyler Boyd, Seth Roberts, 2017 1.09, 2018 round 2 pick FOR my 2018 1st round pick (likely early), Corey Coleman, Golden Tate

A bunch of scraps and the 1.09 for 3 actually useful assets? I wouldn't want to roster all those guys and accept for just the 2018 1st let alone add the #3 and 4 pieces to the deal...and you think this is worse and worth calling out as the 'awful' deal?

My counter was this: Golden Tate, my 2018 2nd round pick FOR Team Dolphins’ 2017 1.09, Eddie Lacy

I'm somewhat speechless at the entire post to be honest.

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Re: Am I crazy to think this may be collusion?

Postby gabes1919 » Fri May 26, 2017 5:16 pm

Still looks like collusion to me. The trade loser's justification of "but 1st overall dude" doesn't work when *spoilers* you didn't end up with the 1st overall. There are suckers everywhere but either this guy is so dumb that he's turned into a bridge collector or there is something else going on. What are each of their rosters and pick situations post trade 2?
12 Team SF PPR
Start: QRRWWWTFFS
QB: Jackson, Garoppolo, Herbert, Griffin III, Taylor, Mullens
RB: Chubb, Kamara, Washington, Swift
WR: Godwin, Lockett, Boyd, Metcalf, T.Williams, Pascal, Stills, A.Tate, Jeudy
TE: Waller, Griffin, Ebron, Herndon
2021 Picks: 3 1sts, 2 2nds, 3rd, 4th

12 Team SF PPR
Start: QRRWWWTFFS
QB: Wilson, Brissett, Fitzpatrick, Herbert, Tagovailoa, Rivers, Mariota, PJ.Walker
RB: Gurley, Dobbins, Edwards, Hines, Du.Johnson, J.Williams
WR: Thomas, C.Ridley, Boyd, T.Higgins, Pittman, R.Higgins, Pascal, C.Phillips, D.Williams
TE: Higbee, Eifert
2020 done
2021 Picks: 2 1sts, 2 2nds, 4th

14 Team SF PPR
Start: QRRWWWTFFFS
QB: Wilson, Fitzpatrick, Tayor, Griffin III, PJ.Walker
RB: Chubb, Mixon, Ekeler, D.Montgomery, Drake, Burkhead, Collins
WR: Smith-Schuster, Metcalf, Renfrow, Aghelor, Gordon, D.Williams, Taylor, C.Phillips
TE: Higbee, Eifert
No 2020/2021 picks

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Re: Am I crazy to think this may be collusion?

Postby _yeti » Fri May 26, 2017 5:39 pm

FiremanEd wrote: Fri May 26, 2017 5:08 pm
_yeti wrote: Fri May 26, 2017 4:35 pm"At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."

"Tyrell Williams and 2018 2nd round pick (most likely early pick but possibly mid round) for Team Dolphins’ 2017 1.09"

So? That's not some great offer. I'd decline it.

On the same day (only 30 minutes after my proposal), team Dolphins then proposed this trade, without commenting or rejecting/accepting my trade:

Team Dolphins offers Jerick McKinnon, Latavius Murrary, Cole Beasley, Tyler Boyd, Seth Roberts, 2017 1.09, 2018 round 2 pick FOR my 2018 1st round pick (likely early), Corey Coleman, Golden Tate

The trade came with a comment: Let me know what you think you could use the RB help. Two days later I rejected this trade for obvious reasons. I countered with a comment telling him it was way too much for me to give up.

My counter was this: Golden Tate, my 2018 2nd round pick FOR Team Dolphins’ 2017 1.09, Eddie Lacy


Again, SO? That's a plenty fair offer he sent you, you might not like it but it isn't so *obvious*. Your counter is horrible and I would reject it.

"On May 23 I proposed a trade to team Eagles: Tyrell Williams, C.J. Anderson and my 2018 1st round pick FOR team Eagles’ 2017 1.02….I then revoked this trade a little after 24 hours because I didn’t feel comfortable with it."


Your offer is trash and not worth 1.2. So he should give up 1.2 in a STACKED class for the addition of a waiver wire guy who performed when their #1 was out, who is now back, and they added another top WR option. On top of that an oft injured UDFA veteran who is competing with a great veteran (Charles) and a young buck (Booker)? That and an as yet undetermined pick a year out is worth 1.2? Ridiculous. And then YOU revoked it bc you thought YOU were giving too much which is hilarious to me.

So I proposed another trade. It was: Tyrell Williams and my 2018 3rd round pick for Team Eagles’ 2017 1.11. Team Eagles rejected this trade 2 hours after I proposed it, with no comment or counter. This was the night before team Eagles and team Dolphins made their 2nd trade.

Again, SO?! You are so eager to trade Williams, a WR who (though I am a big fan) has some serious question marks going forward. Maybe he doesn't want him for the same reasons you are desperate to unload him? Maybe he wants a player like Njoku instead (who I got at 13 and VASTLY prefer).

I wasn't sold one way or the other on the original post but now I am pretty sure it is above board and your league is whiny and super overly controlling. I think you should stick around the forums as it might loosen you up a bit or at least stop you from getting offended that your bad offers aren't accepted. Offers that you are cold offering btw with no communication, which is the laziest way to go about a negotiation if you can even call it that and not usually very successful in my experience.
Seems to me someone really wanted to hear themself talk. You actually think this is any sort of decent offer?

Team Dolphins offers Jerick McKinnon, Latavius Murrary, Cole Beasley, Tyler Boyd, Seth Roberts, 2017 1.09, 2018 round 2 pick FOR my 2018 1st round pick (likely early), Corey Coleman, Golden Tate

A bunch of scraps and the 1.09 for 3 actually useful assets? I wouldn't want to roster all those guys and accept for just the 2018 1st let alone add the #3 and 4 pieces to the deal...and you think this is worse and worth calling out as the 'awful' deal?

My counter was this: Golden Tate, my 2018 2nd round pick FOR Team Dolphins’ 2017 1.09, Eddie Lacy

I'm somewhat speechless at the entire post to be honest.
You know what, I disagree with most of your takes and valuations so it's no surprise we disagree. Who in their right mind even likes the Jets? *ugh Jets, think I threw up in my mouth a little*

I was actually hoping to hear from someone like you on this.

1st offer: scraps and 1.9. "Scraps." No one believed in Latavius when I snagged him in my start up 3 years ago and I argued with everyone he would win the Raiders starting job. Surprise, he did and I flipped him for a first.

Vikes line was atrocious last year but he has shown his flashes. Mckinnon is still underrated imo and hasnt had a chance behind any decent blocking. Boyd was 1.5 in a DLF writer mock just last year. Roberts and Beasley are irrelevant to me, but yes i totally see Murray, Mckinnon, Boyd and 1.9 as being reasonable for Tate, Coleman, and a random first a year out.

1.9 and Lacy for Tate and a 2nd IS horrible. Tate will be 29 this year. He is not a true #1 WR on any respectable NFL team. He finished as a back-end WR2 last year and a WR3 the year before.

3 years ago Lacy was a top 3 dynasty RB. He ate himself out of that but if in shape could easily be the top dog in Seattle, a run first team.

Tate and a 2nd isnt even worth 1.9 in this class let alone to be added to, so yea, horrible offer. Thanks for responding to my post, I look forward to continue disagreeing with you on everything in the future.
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12 Team SF, PPR, TE Prem., DT prem., IDP Start 10, QB, 1SF, 2-4 RB, 2-5 WR, 1-3 TE, 2DL, 2LB, 2DB, 1 IDPflex
QB: J. Fields, B. Mayfield, G. Smith, M. Mariota, S. Darnold
RB: T. Etienne, T. Pollard, S. Barkley, J.Jacobs A. Jones, , A. Gibson, D. Harris, Z. Moss, E. Elliott
WR: G. Wilson, T. Higgins, T. McLaurin C. Kirk, D. Hopkins, K. Toney. K. Osborn, M. Hardman
TE: T.J. Hockenson, K. Pitts, H. Henry
DL: M. Parsons, Q. Williams, D. Buckner, R. Gary
LB: F. Oluokun, R. Smith, A. Anzalone. L. David
DB: B. Baker, J. Metellus, R. Grant

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Re: Am I crazy to think this may be collusion?

Postby StableOfRBs » Fri May 26, 2017 5:46 pm

Never Veto wrote: Fri May 26, 2017 4:53 pm
StableOfRBs wrote: Fri May 26, 2017 9:42 am
Never Veto wrote: Fri May 26, 2017 9:15 am

We can revisit this in 9 months and see.
I'd agree with you if they were drafting 9 months from now, too many things can happen between now and then to tell if the guy at 1.1 and guy at 1.2 are really that different in value, just look at how Gurley and Gordon changed in value their rookie year and then again last year
I'm all in on Fournette, so I think he'll be head and shoulders above the rest, I guess that's why I say we can revisit in 9 months.
That's fair, but at the 1.02 he could take Davis if Fournette isnt there, I think Davis will end the year as a WR2 just like I think L4 will end the year as an RB2 so its really just a positional toss up to me
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Re: Am I crazy to think this may be collusion?

Postby StableOfRBs » Fri May 26, 2017 5:57 pm

FiremanEd wrote: Fri May 26, 2017 5:08 pm
_yeti wrote: Fri May 26, 2017 4:35 pm"At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."

"Tyrell Williams and 2018 2nd round pick (most likely early pick but possibly mid round) for Team Dolphins’ 2017 1.09"

So? That's not some great offer. I'd decline it.

On the same day (only 30 minutes after my proposal), team Dolphins then proposed this trade, without commenting or rejecting/accepting my trade:

Team Dolphins offers Jerick McKinnon, Latavius Murrary, Cole Beasley, Tyler Boyd, Seth Roberts, 2017 1.09, 2018 round 2 pick FOR my 2018 1st round pick (likely early), Corey Coleman, Golden Tate

The trade came with a comment: Let me know what you think you could use the RB help. Two days later I rejected this trade for obvious reasons. I countered with a comment telling him it was way too much for me to give up.

My counter was this: Golden Tate, my 2018 2nd round pick FOR Team Dolphins’ 2017 1.09, Eddie Lacy


Again, SO? That's a plenty fair offer he sent you, you might not like it but it isn't so *obvious*. Your counter is horrible and I would reject it.

"On May 23 I proposed a trade to team Eagles: Tyrell Williams, C.J. Anderson and my 2018 1st round pick FOR team Eagles’ 2017 1.02….I then revoked this trade a little after 24 hours because I didn’t feel comfortable with it."


Your offer is trash and not worth 1.2. So he should give up 1.2 in a STACKED class for the addition of a waiver wire guy who performed when their #1 was out, who is now back, and they added another top WR option. On top of that an oft injured UDFA veteran who is competing with a great veteran (Charles) and a young buck (Booker)? That and an as yet undetermined pick a year out is worth 1.2? Ridiculous. And then YOU revoked it bc you thought YOU were giving too much which is hilarious to me.

So I proposed another trade. It was: Tyrell Williams and my 2018 3rd round pick for Team Eagles’ 2017 1.11. Team Eagles rejected this trade 2 hours after I proposed it, with no comment or counter. This was the night before team Eagles and team Dolphins made their 2nd trade.

Again, SO?! You are so eager to trade Williams, a WR who (though I am a big fan) has some serious question marks going forward. Maybe he doesn't want him for the same reasons you are desperate to unload him? Maybe he wants a player like Njoku instead (who I got at 13 and VASTLY prefer).

I wasn't sold one way or the other on the original post but now I am pretty sure it is above board and your league is whiny and super overly controlling. I think you should stick around the forums as it might loosen you up a bit or at least stop you from getting offended that your bad offers aren't accepted. Offers that you are cold offering btw with no communication, which is the laziest way to go about a negotiation if you can even call it that and not usually very successful in my experience.
Seems to me someone really wanted to hear themself talk. You actually think this is any sort of decent offer?

Team Dolphins offers Jerick McKinnon, Latavius Murrary, Cole Beasley, Tyler Boyd, Seth Roberts, 2017 1.09, 2018 round 2 pick FOR my 2018 1st round pick (likely early), Corey Coleman, Golden Tate

A bunch of scraps and the 1.09 for 3 actually useful assets? I wouldn't want to roster all those guys and accept for just the 2018 1st let alone add the #3 and 4 pieces to the deal...and you think this is worse and worth calling out as the 'awful' deal?

My counter was this: Golden Tate, my 2018 2nd round pick FOR Team Dolphins’ 2017 1.09, Eddie Lacy

I'm somewhat speechless at the entire post to be honest.
How in the world is Coleman a useful asset, sure he had bad QB play and missed 6 games but he had 413 yards in the other 10 games on 33 catches, 41 yards a game on ~7 targets a game is no bueno

33 catches on 73 targets 33 out of 73 thats a 45% catch rate and thats absolute garbage, not to mention that of those paltry 413 yards he had, 104 came in one game, 25% of his yards in one single game

Sure he could improve even though its the same QB and the same offense and he's the same player but what happens if we double his production? 66-826-6, that's not so bad really, although just last year Cole Beasley had 75-833-5 and he's just part of "a bunch of scraps"
Greek Mythology League - Heracles - 2QB/3RB/4WR/2TE/2Flex/2DT/2DE/4LB/2CB/2S/1DFlex:
https://www54.myfantasyleague.com/2022/home/13740#1

Marvel vs. DC League - Lords of Order - 1QB/2RB/3WR/1TE/1SFlex/2Flex/1DT/2DE/3LB/1CB/2S/1DFlex:
https://www54.myfantasyleague.com/2022/home/58114#1

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Re: Am I crazy to think this may be collusion?

Postby _yeti » Fri May 26, 2017 6:13 pm

For anyone wondering why I came so hard in the last two posts:
1) I hate when people get mad someone doesn't accept their offer. No one is obligated to trade their players or picks to you just because you decided you want them, regardless of what the offer is.
2) I hate it twice as much when the offer is a bad offer and they're mad someone doesn't want the players they are trying to off-load.
3) I get three times as mad when you just cold send out a bad offer and then get mad at a guy who doesn't want it and judge him for it.

^All of this makes a league worse
Remember where you are - this is Thunderdome.
*5 leagues (est. 2015, '17, '18, '18, '22, 6 total 'ships)

12 Team SF, PPR, TE Prem., DT prem., IDP Start 10, QB, 1SF, 2-4 RB, 2-5 WR, 1-3 TE, 2DL, 2LB, 2DB, 1 IDPflex
QB: J. Fields, B. Mayfield, G. Smith, M. Mariota, S. Darnold
RB: T. Etienne, T. Pollard, S. Barkley, J.Jacobs A. Jones, , A. Gibson, D. Harris, Z. Moss, E. Elliott
WR: G. Wilson, T. Higgins, T. McLaurin C. Kirk, D. Hopkins, K. Toney. K. Osborn, M. Hardman
TE: T.J. Hockenson, K. Pitts, H. Henry
DL: M. Parsons, Q. Williams, D. Buckner, R. Gary
LB: F. Oluokun, R. Smith, A. Anzalone. L. David
DB: B. Baker, J. Metellus, R. Grant

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Re: Am I crazy to think this may be collusion?

Postby _yeti » Fri May 26, 2017 6:18 pm

Also, a ton of posts have asked for rosters to provide context and still no rosters are posted that I can see. Complaints as long as a Dostoevsky novel but not a simple post of a list of who is on what team which would be very helpful to the discussion.
Remember where you are - this is Thunderdome.
*5 leagues (est. 2015, '17, '18, '18, '22, 6 total 'ships)

12 Team SF, PPR, TE Prem., DT prem., IDP Start 10, QB, 1SF, 2-4 RB, 2-5 WR, 1-3 TE, 2DL, 2LB, 2DB, 1 IDPflex
QB: J. Fields, B. Mayfield, G. Smith, M. Mariota, S. Darnold
RB: T. Etienne, T. Pollard, S. Barkley, J.Jacobs A. Jones, , A. Gibson, D. Harris, Z. Moss, E. Elliott
WR: G. Wilson, T. Higgins, T. McLaurin C. Kirk, D. Hopkins, K. Toney. K. Osborn, M. Hardman
TE: T.J. Hockenson, K. Pitts, H. Henry
DL: M. Parsons, Q. Williams, D. Buckner, R. Gary
LB: F. Oluokun, R. Smith, A. Anzalone. L. David
DB: B. Baker, J. Metellus, R. Grant

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Re: Am I crazy to think this may be collusion?

Postby Goirish374 » Fri May 26, 2017 7:09 pm

I wish we could tack in bronze at the head of the forum all the following gems from the DLF forum:

Whining about trades kills more leagues than bad trades.

Owners who jump ship at the first sign of player valuation different from theirs--Jabba has no use for them.

What's worse than 10 other owners deciding they don't like your trade? One owner deciding they don't like your trade. Commish vetoes are actually more tyrannical than league vetoes.

The league can take care of itself. One trade--no matter how bad you think it is today, not even Julio for free 5 years ago--can ruin a league of good owners. Be less concerned with the intergrity of the league and more concerned with the integrity of ownership.

The lifetime of a good dynasty league is 10, 15, 20 years. A good group of owners who are committed to that lifecycle can weather all manner of ebbing and flowing in the standings.

The fields of December are littered with the corpses of paper champions crowned in August. You don't know who is going to finish where. If that bothers you, read it until it doesn't: you don't know who is going to finish where. And, further, you are probably not just wrong but probably drastically wrong.

There is no such thing as a league-crippling trade.

Protecting "league integrity" is never as popular with Team C as when Teams A and B have completed a trade.

There should be no vetoes. The penalty for collusion should be expulsion, not veto.

If you truly do care about the integrity of the league--by which i mean if you care about having the most sound, most competitive, most cohesive group of owners then you will recognize that your responsibility as commissioner extends beyond merely approving or rejecting trades that benefit or harm teams that you are personally trying to compete against. It means educating and growing dynastic players in the same way you and everyone else were educated and grown. Provided resources, links, articles, content, direction, etc. Allow owner to learn from their mistakes. The league will be fine. The best way to provide for the integrity of the league is to provide for the owners, not to veto trades that differ in player valuation from your personal vision.

Okay, that last one is me from just now lol.
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Re: Am I crazy to think this may be collusion?

Postby _yeti » Fri May 26, 2017 7:24 pm

Goirish374 wrote: Fri May 26, 2017 7:09 pm I wish we could tack in bronze at the head of the forum all the following gems from the DLF forum:

Whining about trades kills more leagues than bad trades.

Owners who jump ship at the first sign of player valuation different from theirs--Jabba has no use for them.

What's worse than 10 other owners deciding they don't like your trade? One owner deciding they don't like your trade. Commish vetoes are actually more tyrannical than league vetoes.

The league can take care of itself. One trade--no matter how bad you think it is today, not even Julio for free 5 years ago--can ruin a league of good owners. Be less concerned with the intergrity of the league and more concerned with the integrity of ownership.

The lifetime of a good dynasty league is 10, 15, 20 years. A good group of owners who are committed to that lifecycle can weather all manner of ebbing and flowing in the standings.

The fields of December are littered with the corpses of paper champions crowned in August. You don't know who is going to finish where. If that bothers you, read it until it doesn't: you don't know who is going to finish where. And, further, you are probably not just wrong but probably drastically wrong.

There is no such thing as a league-crippling trade.

Protecting "league integrity" is never as popular with Team C as when Teams A and B have completed a trade.

There should be no vetoes. The penalty for collusion should be expulsion, not veto.

If you truly do care about the integrity of the league--by which i mean if you care about having the most sound, most competitive, most cohesive group of owners then you will recognize that your responsibility as commissioner extends beyond merely approving or rejecting trades that benefit or harm teams that you are personally trying to compete against. It means educating and growing dynastic players in the same way you and everyone else were educated and grown. Provided resources, links, articles, content, direction, etc. Allow owner to learn from their mistakes. The league will be fine. The best way to provide for the integrity of the league is to provide for the owners, not to veto trades that differ in player valuation from your personal vision.

Okay, that last one is me from just now lol.
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Remember where you are - this is Thunderdome.
*5 leagues (est. 2015, '17, '18, '18, '22, 6 total 'ships)

12 Team SF, PPR, TE Prem., DT prem., IDP Start 10, QB, 1SF, 2-4 RB, 2-5 WR, 1-3 TE, 2DL, 2LB, 2DB, 1 IDPflex
QB: J. Fields, B. Mayfield, G. Smith, M. Mariota, S. Darnold
RB: T. Etienne, T. Pollard, S. Barkley, J.Jacobs A. Jones, , A. Gibson, D. Harris, Z. Moss, E. Elliott
WR: G. Wilson, T. Higgins, T. McLaurin C. Kirk, D. Hopkins, K. Toney. K. Osborn, M. Hardman
TE: T.J. Hockenson, K. Pitts, H. Henry
DL: M. Parsons, Q. Williams, D. Buckner, R. Gary
LB: F. Oluokun, R. Smith, A. Anzalone. L. David
DB: B. Baker, J. Metellus, R. Grant

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Re: Am I crazy to think this may be collusion?

Postby slaughterrt » Fri May 26, 2017 7:58 pm

mmyers69 wrote: Fri May 26, 2017 1:04 pm Hey guys, another owner sent me a link to this forum. As an owner myself in this league I wanted to give some input on attempted transactions with both of these owners. I’m of the opinion that there was collusion and that it’s not simply innocent stupidity. But I want to give some facts to help make this situation a little clearer, if possible. Before I get into details I will say that team Dolphins in this situation never once offered me a trade OTHER than the one listed below. And to the last poster, WhatWouldDitkaDo, your evaluations are ridiculous. Rodgers is not equal to 1.09 and Allen Robinson is not equal to 1.02. (They are both way more valuable than their respective picks) Completely disagree with you here. Good luck getting any 1st for any QB in a start 1QB league (unless it's some 32 team league). At the same time, I could easily see a lot of people valuing the the 1.02 over Robinson...especially with rookie fever in full swing. Your valuation of the players and picks versus WhatWouldDitkaDo's valuation is a PRIME example of differing valuations and why I think there is nothing unbalanced about the trades in question. This is a dynasty league and people are going to value players/picks differently. If you are going to micromanage all the teams in the league, why bother even having other owners?

On May 17 I offered team Dolphins this trade:

Tyrell Williams and 2018 2nd round pick (most likely early pick but possibly mid round) for Team Dolphins’ 2017 1.09
Not a great offer
On the same day (only 30 minutes after my proposal), team Dolphins then proposed this trade, without commenting or rejecting/accepting my trade:

Team Dolphins offers Jerick McKinnon, Latavius Murrary, Cole Beasley, Tyler Boyd, Seth Roberts, 2017 1.09, 2018 round 2 pick FOR my 2018 1st round pick (likely early), Corey Coleman, Golden Tate
Not a great counter
The trade came with a comment: Let me know what you think you could use the RB help. Two days later I rejected this trade for obvious reasons. I countered with a comment telling him it was way too much for me to give up.

My counter was this: Golden Tate, my 2018 2nd round pick FOR Team Dolphins’ 2017 1.09, Eddie Lacy
Another meh offer
I then revoked the earlier trade (Williams/2nd rounder for his 1.09), which was only 2 days after its proposal. But I figured he had seen it and ignored it since he offered me a different trade. Three days later he proposed the SAME exact trade he had before with the SAME exact comment, even after I rejected with the comment telling him it was way too much for me to give up. I rejected it a day later. The second time I rejected the SAME trade. Then, the next day, I revoked the trade for Lacey and his 2017 1.09 since he had ignored the previous trade and sent me the same trade twice, when I had rejected initially with a comment as to why. This all took place after team Dolphins had already given up Amari Cooper and Rodgers, but it was before team Dolphins then gave up Wentz, Martin and Robinson

On May 23 I proposed a trade to team Eagles: Tyrell Williams, C.J. Anderson and my 2018 1st round pick FOR team Eagles’ 2017 1.02
Another weak offer
….I then revoked this trade a little after 24 hours because I didn’t feel comfortable with it. There was no response from team Eagles, but it was only a day later. So I proposed another trade. It was: Tyrell Williams and my 2018 3rd round pick for Team Eagles’ 2017 1.11. Another weak offerTeam Eagles rejected this trade 2 hours after I proposed it, with no comment or counter. This was the night before team Eagles and team Dolphins made their 2nd trade.

To me, all this shows is that you two couldn't come to any agreements. Seems to me that you are overvaluing TWilliams (which is your right to do, but makes it hard to trade him). None of the trade offers you sent or received counters for are any trades I would be interested in making.

To me, it seems as if team Dolphins is obviously trying to help team Eagles. His team (Eagles) got drastically better and still has the number one pick in this years draft. Team Dolphins lost some studs but gained the number two pick in this years draft and a 1st rounder in 2019. I don’t think collusion is subjective. They either did or they didn’t. It can never be proven 100%, we can only judge based on their league activity and/or attempted transactions with these owners. The fact that they are friends IRL is also at play but not proof of collusion. But did team Dolphins really think I’d go for his awful proposal? Did you really think he would go for your awful proposal? If so, then maybe this is all a case of ignorance/stupidity. DittoBut why, then, did he seemingly ignore my trades and propose the same trade twice after I’d explained my initial rejection? Maybe he was trying to send you a message regarding your offer.Why did they trade the 1.01 and 1.09 picks only to give them back? Buyer's remorse...happens all the time.Thanks to everyone giving valuable input and thanks to Nick for running the league and trying to deal with this, even if we might not agree.

I still don't see any actual reason to suspect collusion based on the trades themselves. I don't even agree that the trades in question are that bad. Owners are going to value players and picks differently...that's part of the fun of dynasty. How boring would it be if everyone had the same exact valuation of everyone? As far as being friends in real life, I think that could benefit trading as they likely have a better line of direct communication. Could that be used nefariously? Sure...but you can't just go accusing people of it with your only proof is "bad trade" based on your valuation, and the owner not responding to your poor offers (I may have not responded to that offer), and the fact that they are friends in real life.

In the end, I'm not totally sure you understand what collusion actually is. To me, it seems like you are upset that the team didn't accept your trades, and accepted other trades.


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