Did Jesus Christ die and rise rom the dead?

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Re: Did Jesus Christ die and rise rom the dead?

Postby Dynasty DeLorean » Thu Feb 22, 2018 11:26 am

JFever wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 10:27 am
After giving our thread discussion a few days of rest, I'm wondering if anyone has taken the initiative to look into the links, authors, and sources I offered?
dlf_jaronf wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:06 am
I'd ignore any list trying to convince me there is no God
Godspeed JFever.

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Re: Did Jesus Christ die and rise rom the dead?

Postby JFever » Thu Feb 22, 2018 4:45 pm

I know, I know. Some of that mind set reminds me of a younger teenage type approach to listening. In a way it is akin to plugging your ears, looking up at the ceiling, and saying to yourself "lalalalalala" as a parent is giving advice or otherwise talking. It is a sad truth about indoctrination. But, it is the way it is for that very reason. When otherwise educated adults purposefully ignore readily available information, what does that say about the future of our developed society? It is in a way scary.

I really wasn't at all trying to purposefully offend any individual contributing in this thread. I am however a person of science, and if at any time, any religion stands in the way of scientific advancement, a natural understanding of the world, or medical advancement, I will speak out. I too was indoctrinated as a child. I was raised in a very religious environment and it wasn't until I became more informed about the actual history of my religion as well as the conflicts within science and became more aware of the inconsistencies of reality and fundamental religious dogma that I couldn't let myself continue to get lied to any longer. I realize that these discussions will likely not "change" someones mind about their current beliefs and honestly that isn't the point. The point isn't to change the mind of the fundamentalist extreme population, but to simply inform the moderates that - it is socially completely ok to not Believe in the magical & supernatural, when reality has better explanations that are all easily accessible and understandable.

The authors that I mentioned and their work that I mentioned earlier in this thread are some life changing type assets to humanity. Incredibly accomplished in their fields. Great speakers, writers, and communicators. Not all of them proclaim themselves to be atheistic either. Some subscribe to certain levels of belief or refer to themselves as agnostic. But, the most important thing they all have in common - is that they are intellectually honest with themselves and their readers.

An adult in the year 2018, cannot claim to be intellectually honest with themselves if they consciously choose to not look into all the available information regarding their belief system or / choose to purposefully ignores available info. It matters not if it is a belief system revolving around being Amish, Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist, Jane, Islam, christian, or atheist. One should (in a perfect world of course), by all accounts, know why they believe what they claim to believe. There should be some type of explainable, rational, and reasonable reason one holds a particular faith over say any other. This reason should not be genetic just as political views and opinions shouldn't be genetic. And, if one currently doesn't know why they believe what they do, well, then, I'm simply saying or hoping they should be curious, and look into it. Perhaps some in this thread have looked deeply into the reasons behind their faith, and have come to the conclusions that are conducive to their christian faith.

I'm quite confident that, (in the year 2018 and the information age we find ourselves in), an objective investigation of the history of any religion will shine some light on it's validity and thus perhaps the conviction of those that have been indoctrinated as young impressionable children.
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Re: Did Jesus Christ die and rise rom the dead?

Postby Big Al » Thu Feb 22, 2018 6:25 pm

For crying out load Fever the horse is dead, stop kicking it. Let people believe what they truly believe. I feel fine with my faith/beliefs and don't feel the need to keep pushing them on other people. You are stuck with your theories and most are fine with that.

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Re: Did Jesus Christ die and rise rom the dead?

Postby azthecrow » Thu Feb 22, 2018 6:37 pm

Why should we listen to you fever and your approach to how someone comes to conclusions about how they believe?
Your offensive/condescending opinion assumes that all believers have done zero research or study to support how they believe. There are as many or more authors/books supporting the existence of God ( in addition to the actual word of God, the Bible) than not. I do not understand those who are passionately against God. There is no reason for it. Christians who truly believe are generally harmless to society and for the most part contribute positively.
So why? Other than the fact that you want to be part of the highly educated club. Is it because Jesus was a carpenter who hung out with fishermen? While you are working so hard against God just remember that God’s wisdom is far greater than man’s. He loves you too fever.

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Re: Did Jesus Christ die and rise rom the dead?

Postby JFever » Thu Feb 22, 2018 11:03 pm

Well, I understand that my sharing of logic and resources that are, let's just say, worth looking into, weren't shared in an attempt to change minds. Rather, they were shared in attempt that maybe, a few of you, would be either confident enough in your 'faith' that'd you'd be comfortable enough to take the time to double check your facts. Or, maybe curious enough to check out what science has discovered and made public. Maybe I overestimated or perhaps I was over optimistic. Put it this way. There are tens of thousands of extreme religious folks around the word today with extreme faith that allows them to do some really good things along with a lot of crazy $#@&. My point here is one simply doesn't need religion, a god, a creator, a supernatural being to do good things or to explain the big bang, or anything else in the natural world. There are people even today that, rather than take their sick child to a medical doctor when the kid is ill, they resort to prayer. I find this deplorable. Apparently, it's ok and.... your God loves all, answers prayers, and works in mysterious ways.

And, as far as my continued efforts with our thread, the phrase : you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink comes to mind. I'll continue to beat the dead horse on the topic for the simple reason that I feel someone simply has to do it. This topic of childhood indoctrination and Evengelical religious fundementalisim in the USA has become a life passion of mine. I do research in the history of theology as an hobby / pass time. I've learned a great deal on this subject, and have found I now have come to know much more about several religions than the very people that claim to be of those beliefs, in regard to many important details and inconsistencies. I study and teach biological science, have a strong interest in philosophy and history as well as religion. If ya don't like the thread, I'm sure there is some research you could do on the upcoming rookie class and the combine. No worries.

Offensive and condescending. Sorry you took it that way. Its tough to have detailed discussions on the topic in simple back and forth responses on a thread and simultainiously show empathy and compassion. Let's just remember, I'm not attempting to make it personal. I'm simply and directly questioning belief and the rationale behind it in the 21st century. Im doing this because I deeply care what is and what is not true. I'm not calling names or trying to make any personal individual rips, digs, or attacks. Nor, am I claiming to have all the answers, like religion does absolutely claim. Like saying - "God loves you". Like.... How do you know this? If I said, Oden, Thor, or Alah loves you, would it console you?
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Re: Did Jesus Christ die and rise rom the dead?

Postby gunzwil guinea pigs » Sun Mar 11, 2018 10:07 am

Is there prove god is existing? No (don't know what it should take to prove that...)
Is there a prove god is not existing? No (science can't falsify that either)

also often people speaking of god and mean religion or church... what is absolutely confusing in this discussion
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Re: Did Jesus Christ die and rise rom the dead?

Postby JFever » Thu Mar 15, 2018 8:38 pm

The point is that the burden of proof in this matter lies with the side that makes the outrageous claim. A smidge of real tangible evidence would be nice. As much as I study the historosity of theology of monotheisim, I can't find solid evidence. We just don't see anything besides the claims of a book and personal revelation. Science can't prove that there is no God, just like science can't prove that fairy's, hobgoblins, unicorns, bigfoots, vampires, ogres, werewolves, flying teapots orbiting Jupiter, flying spagetti monsters in space, and santa Claus are not real. Bottom line is one line of thinking lines up with reason, skepticism, and logic, while the other is deeply rooted in deception, myth, and ancient superstitions scribbled down by 1st century desert people.
Truth is found through Evidence.

Science is the poetry of reality.

* Reality (as defined by Webster's dictionary) - A word for things as they actually exist, as opposed to an idealistic or notional ideal of them.

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Re: Did Jesus Christ die and rise rom the dead?

Postby Blackout » Thu Mar 15, 2018 9:49 pm

I used to be totally scientist and rational (very interested and comfortable with numbers) in the main part of my life until some years ago. I was very "i believe in what i see" and very closed to new relationships. Religion was really my last concern. I invited him in my life, i can see clearly now and it gives me strength & faith but stay humble. God could be an idea after all but it's definitely a good one. I'm not accepting everything and wars changed in flowers but it hurts less, it's forgotten faster now and i'm going on without malicious people that i reject with no regrets. Time is precious to care about what and who doesn't about you. I believe in God, i believe in life, i believe i will finally win my oldest dynasty this year or next one...Oh wait...No way except if God plays RB in heaven and scores some "Hail Mary" run version :lol:

Always look on the bright side of life !
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Re: Did Jesus Christ die and rise rom the dead?

Postby JFever » Fri Mar 16, 2018 9:14 am

That story sounds nice. I don't mind your personal revelation. It's the brainwashing of innocent children that gets me worked up. What you choose to believe is all good. If it makes you feel good, all the better. But, lets be intellectually honest. Because you choose to believe in something that makes you feel better, feel good, forgive easier, have less stress, etc - simply doesn't make whatever you believe in true. Evidence is what leads to truth. Not belief. I, simply care to believe in what is true and I find that truth is what actually matters, not make believe things that make me or help me personally deal with the rigors of the world / life.

good luck winning you longest running league btw! :thumbup:
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Re: Did Jesus Christ die and rise rom the dead?

Postby dlf_jaronf » Fri Mar 16, 2018 9:20 am

JFever, enough with the "brainwashing" crap. I'm teaching my children to follow Jesus. I'm not "brainwashing" them. Believe what you want, but stop with this elitist perspective.

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Re: Did Jesus Christ die and rise rom the dead?

Postby Dynasty DeLorean » Sat Mar 17, 2018 8:31 pm

dlf_jaronf wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 9:20 am
JFever, enough with the "brainwashing" crap. I'm teaching my children to follow Jesus. I'm not "brainwashing" them. Believe what you want, but stop with this elitist perspective.
I can tell you first hand that it is brainwashing, if you're presenting it as fact in the same way you'd teach them about colors, shapes or numbers. For people that are supposedly religious, JFever is catching a lot of undeserved crap from you guys. If you don't like what he's saying, don't shoot the messenger... He's not wrong. His side may be incomplete, but he's not wrong.

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Re: Did Jesus Christ die and rise rom the dead?

Postby JFever » Sun Mar 18, 2018 1:44 pm

Delorean, thanks. Thee braineashing remarks aren't meant to be offensive. I just call em how I see em. Sorry Jaron. If you don't like brainwashing we can refer to it as indoctrinating. Same thing. It's just a verb and, it is what is done. These world views are often times passed on from generation to generation, but, with time and available information, they typically fade.
Delorean, not sure what you mean by my view being incomplete. I was raised to believe in Jesus, God, and all the stories and myth. I, (in my 30's),just became aware that far too many claims just don't align with reality. And, in the year 2018, reality shouldn't be ignored, twisted, minimized, or supressed.
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Science is the poetry of reality.

* Reality (as defined by Webster's dictionary) - A word for things as they actually exist, as opposed to an idealistic or notional ideal of them.

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Re: Did Jesus Christ die and rise rom the dead?

Postby Blackout » Sun Mar 18, 2018 2:26 pm

JFever wrote:
Sun Mar 18, 2018 1:44 pm
Delorean, thanks. Thee braineashing remarks aren't meant to be offensive. I just call em how I see em. Sorry Jaron. If you don't like brainwashing we can refer to it as indoctrinating. Same thing. It's just a verb and, it is what is done. These world views are often times passed on from generation to generation, but, with time and available information, they typically fade.
Delorean, not sure what you mean by my view being incomplete. I was raised to believe in Jesus, God, and all the stories and myth. I, (in my 30's),just became aware that far too many claims just don't align with reality. And, in the year 2018, reality shouldn't be ignored, twisted, minimized, or supressed.
To complete my first message. I understand your point of view JFever. For me, religion is not a family tradition but a personnal way of life. I will let my son choosing to believe in or not. If the destiny is that he gets closer, he will by himself. I would simply let him know my story and what made me believe in God. And only if he's in trouble. Otherwise it's my secret garden and it's between God and me. For example i couldn't pray with ten or hundred people but alone. So much unsense and it could be named a sect if not. If he had questions, i'll answer with my responses and there is not just one truth. Anyway God accepts everybody, even unbelievers, whatever is said. i won't say myself to anyone "If you don't trust in God, you will go to Hell" or something like that. Religion is tolerance. There are some catholic rules that religious defend like a relationship between a man and a woman but the rest...For me the only unpardonable sin is killing someone. And the only natural thing i can't accept is the premature child death. We are not born to die at 5 years old. There is absolute no mission of his own life which can be finished in a short time. Die to teach parents to be stronger ? No way. Where is our own mission so if it's not the possibility to educate and made them some goods adults with life values ?
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Re: Did Jesus Christ die and rise rom the dead?

Postby JFever » Sun Mar 18, 2018 9:22 pm

I get it, for you, it's a personal revelation. I'm fine with it if ya keep it to yourself and don't ask for tax breaks and petition for you personal beliefs to be taught to public school children in science classes. The problem is, is when the lies get spread - it affects social, political, legal, sexual, medical, moral,and economic situations. These beliefs, or, the ability to believe anything and everything in the face of evidence that says something quite to the contrary, picking and choosing the bits we like, and cherry picking our realities, don't make a better future, rather, these beliefs build walls, fuel terrorism, wars, homophobia, and sexism. Like I've said before, this is about truth. Believing in something because you've been indoctrinated to do so and taught to not question authority, or believing in something because it makes you feel better or because it comforts you in a time of personal loss, just doesn't make it true. What I'm saying is, we should care what is true,and we should value evidence. One doesn't need any religion to be a good father. You don't need a God, a Bible, or the threat of an eternity in hell to teach your children good values.
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Re: Did Jesus Christ die and rise rom the dead?

Postby dlf_jaronf » Mon Mar 19, 2018 4:59 am

DD, "undeserved crap"? Feeling like we have to defend our belief system, and now our parenting styles, is causing undue stress on "the messenger"... So people can just say whatever they want about others and they're just being "the messenger", and those they're targeting should just accept it? We are told we're brainwashing our children, and that perspective is correct so we should just take it? :roll:

JF, do YOU know how I'm teaching my kids? Even if we don't go with the obvious negative connotations that are connected with the term "brainwashing", if you use a "nicer" term like "indoctrinating" that is still making a lot of assumptions about how I'm teaching my kids. "Brainwashing" not meant to be offensive? Well, if you don't mean for it to be but it's clearly rubbing people the wrong way, how about you stop using it as opposed to (yet again) explaining how it's not intended to be offensive? Simple solution.

Guys, this is beyond whether you believe in God. This is being respectful of others, whether your beliefs align with theirs or not. Enough.


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