Did Jesus Christ die and rise rom the dead?

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Re: Did Jesus Christ die and rise rom the dead?

Postby Tsunami » Sun Oct 01, 2017 8:53 pm

slacker wrote: Sun Oct 01, 2017 7:02 pm Well, I have to admit I was surprised at the response tonight when I opened up the thread and was kind of impressed, until I clicked on the included link for Psychological projection. Sort of an unapologetic apology and it makes me doubt your sincerity. I think you are an extremely smart guy who really doesn't want to admit there is a God, and acknowledging the authorship of the NT books would force you to do that so you throw up roadblock, after roadblock, after roadblock. Don't know what else to say other than I sincerely have been praying for you and the others on this thread since it began.
I have no problem admitting reality, I just don't see what you see. Your faith is either based on your cultural traditions (indoctrination) which you never questioned properly, or upon a feeling that I don't feel, because rationally the evidence supporting it isn't any greater than any other religion.

Acknowledging the authorship of the gospels wouldn't prove their accuracy. It would add more credibility to the claims, but it still wouldn't overcome the evidence of the laws of physics. There are people to this day that claim to be eyewitnesses to miracles, but I don't believe them. If I was to witness the supernatural myself I would first think I was hallucinating, because that's the most likely explanation. I do believe in schizophrenia. But if somehow I were convinced you were right I wouldn't have any reason to deny it, going to heaven sounds pretty okay. I just can't lie to myself like that.

Do you honestly think prayer does anything? Every child who gets cancer is prayed for, every natural disaster brings out well-wishers from across the planet to pray for help, every war and sporting event is prayed for on both sides, none of it prevents the outcome. I'll let you know if I see any convincing miracles but I think you are wasting your time. Instead of praying for kids with cancer go volunteer. Instead of praying for disaster relief, send some money to charity benefiting Puerto Rico. Instead of praying for me go read a science book.

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Re: Did Jesus Christ die and rise rom the dead?

Postby dynastyninja » Mon Oct 02, 2017 8:16 am

I think religion as a whole is a good thing (outside of the hate and violence it causes). Attempting to dissuade people from believing in something that gives them happiness probably isn't the best thing to do.

That said, I felt compelled to type. The current discussion is just going in circles. One of the big questions for me is this:

If God is all-knowing, how did he not know that Lucifer would become the devil? It's been a long time since I read any of the bible, but God created Satan, right? If he is all-knowing, he clearly would have known that this angel he was creating would leave him and try to poison people. Why continue to create him? If he can do anything, why doesn't he just kill Satan and be done with it? Why allow this guy who is poisoning his people to continue to poison them. To me there is no logical answer to this. If he's all-knowing, he doesn't create him and that's the end of the story.

Please cut out the "I'll pray that your heart opens up to the lord" and the "the lord works in mysterious ways" responses. I get enough people knocking on my door offering the same thing. I don't want bible verses or personal stories. I am hoping for direct, logical responses to the question. I've always been curious and have never actually asked believers.

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Re: Did Jesus Christ die and rise rom the dead?

Postby slacker » Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:37 am

dynastyninja wrote: Mon Oct 02, 2017 8:16 am I think religion as a whole is a good thing (outside of the hate and violence it causes). Attempting to dissuade people from believing in something that gives them happiness probably isn't the best thing to do.

That said, I felt compelled to type. The current discussion is just going in circles. One of the big questions for me is this:

If God is all-knowing, how did he not know that Lucifer would become the devil? It's been a long time since I read any of the bible, but God created Satan, right? If he is all-knowing, he clearly would have known that this angel he was creating would leave him and try to poison people. Why continue to create him? If he can do anything, why doesn't he just kill Satan and be done with it? Why allow this guy who is poisoning his people to continue to poison them. To me there is no logical answer to this. If he's all-knowing, he doesn't create him and that's the end of the story.

Please cut out the "I'll pray that your heart opens up to the lord" and the "the lord works in mysterious ways" responses. I get enough people knocking on my door offering the same thing. I don't want bible verses or personal stories. I am hoping for direct, logical responses to the question. I've always been curious and have never actually asked believers.
It's kinda hard to answer your question because you want something concrete, but the Bible just doesn't give us much of a history on Satan. He was created as an angel and led a rebellion against God. I think that Satan has a free will and he obviously made use of to organized and attempt the rebellion. Why create him in the first place? I believe he did have a function and a purpose but used his free will to reject that purpose. Why doesn't he just kill Satan and be done with it? I don't know. In end times prophesy the antichrist receives a fatal head wound and it miraculously healed, at which time many theologians believe he is possessed by Satan himself. If this is true then it would appear he still has a role to serve, so that is why God doesn't just kill Satan and be done with it. I never really focused on Satan a whole lot because I know that my own temptations and flaws are enough that I can sin just fine without him, and I think that the same can be said for most if not all of humanity. I know this is probably less than what you hoped for, but it's all I have.
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Re: Did Jesus Christ die and rise rom the dead?

Postby Tsunami » Mon Oct 02, 2017 11:27 am

dynastyninja wrote: Mon Oct 02, 2017 8:16 am I think religion as a whole is a good thing (outside of the hate and violence it causes). Attempting to dissuade people from believing in something that gives them happiness probably isn't the best thing to do.
Even if you excuse the Crusades and Manifest Destiny and witch trials and sexual oppression and all of that, look how much religion has held us back from scientific advancement. It might make people feel better but it doesn't make their lives better, it makes them worse. Religion is a violent discriminatory waste of resources, with few (if any) exceptions.
If God is all-knowing, how did he not know that Lucifer would become the devil? It's been a long time since I read any of the bible, but God created Satan, right? If he is all-knowing, he clearly would have known that this angel he was creating would leave him and try to poison people. Why continue to create him? If he can do anything, why doesn't he just kill Satan and be done with it? Why allow this guy who is poisoning his people to continue to poison them. To me there is no logical answer to this. If he's all-knowing, he doesn't create him and that's the end of the story.
The story I remember from my childhood says God is allowing all this suffering to prove a point, that he can allow us free will including his enemies, and some people will still follow him. I guess this is kinda like how a dictator still has "elections" to prove his regime is valid.

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Re: Did Jesus Christ die and rise rom the dead?

Postby dynastyninja » Mon Oct 02, 2017 12:21 pm

Tsunami wrote: Mon Oct 02, 2017 11:27 am
dynastyninja wrote: Mon Oct 02, 2017 8:16 am I think religion as a whole is a good thing (outside of the hate and violence it causes). Attempting to dissuade people from believing in something that gives them happiness probably isn't the best thing to do.
Even if you excuse the Crusades and Manifest Destiny and witch trials and sexual oppression and all of that, look how much religion has held us back from scientific advancement. It might make people feel better but it doesn't make their lives better, it makes them worse. Religion is a violent discriminatory waste of resources, with few (if any) exceptions.
Fully agree that those things are very negative results of religion, but I think the positives outweigh the horrible negatives here. I'd imagine things would be a lot worse if religion wasn't keeping people "in line." I think a lot more terrible stuff would be happening if people weren't worried whether they were going to heaven or hell for eternity.

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Re: Did Jesus Christ die and rise rom the dead?

Postby Tsunami » Tue Oct 03, 2017 12:38 am

dynastyninja wrote: Mon Oct 02, 2017 12:21 pm
Tsunami wrote: Mon Oct 02, 2017 11:27 am
dynastyninja wrote: Mon Oct 02, 2017 8:16 am I think religion as a whole is a good thing (outside of the hate and violence it causes). Attempting to dissuade people from believing in something that gives them happiness probably isn't the best thing to do.
Even if you excuse the Crusades and Manifest Destiny and witch trials and sexual oppression and all of that, look how much religion has held us back from scientific advancement. It might make people feel better but it doesn't make their lives better, it makes them worse. Religion is a violent discriminatory waste of resources, with few (if any) exceptions.
Fully agree that those things are very negative results of religion, but I think the positives outweigh the horrible negatives here. I'd imagine things would be a lot worse if religion wasn't keeping people "in line." I think a lot more terrible stuff would be happening if people weren't worried whether they were going to heaven or hell for eternity.
I don't see how you can think that. Some of the safest nations in the world have a solid majority of non-religious people, like Sweden, Norway, Japan, Denmark, etc. And some of the most religious places are also the most dangerous.

That morality comes from religion is a myth. People follow their own values much more reliably than rules dictated to them, whether it be from the government or from a god. Prisons are full of religious people.

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Re: Did Jesus Christ die and rise rom the dead?

Postby clarion contrarion » Sun Oct 08, 2017 5:19 am

dynastyninja wrote: Mon Oct 02, 2017 8:16 am I think religion as a whole is a good thing (outside of the hate and violence it causes). Attempting to dissuade people from believing in something that gives them happiness probably isn't the best thing to do.

That said, I felt compelled to type. The current discussion is just going in circles. One of the big questions for me is this:

If God is all-knowing, how did he not know that Lucifer would become the devil? It's been a long time since I read any of the bible, but God created Satan, right? If he is all-knowing, he clearly would have known that this angel he was creating would leave him and try to poison people. Why continue to create him? If he can do anything, why doesn't he just kill Satan and be done with it? Why allow this guy who is poisoning his people to continue to poison them. To me there is no logical answer to this. If he's all-knowing, he doesn't create him and that's the end of the story.

Please cut out the "I'll pray that your heart opens up to the lord" and the "the lord works in mysterious ways" responses. I get enough people knocking on my door offering the same thing. I don't want bible verses or personal stories. I am hoping for direct, logical responses to the question. I've always been curious and have never actually asked believers.
why do parents that have dangerous criminal "evil" children not kill them while they are young ? We have all seen kids even really young kids that you just knew were worthless / dangerous but society makes excuses or tries to reform or save them generally .
I see people demean religion and much of that is really on people that cloak themselves in religion that are no more spiritual than my dog but it plays well to the many people in society that think if a person is religious that they are trustworthy or reverent.

So much of the bible is hard to fathom from day to day standpoint but if you look at the time in which it was written people had a different understanding of the world and many superstitions that have proven incorrect. The depictions were written by people that had a lesser understanding of certain aspects of the world that time has yielded . That said go to a farm museum and look at the machinery /implements that were used 150 years ago, that equipment is outdated and rusty but in the time they were used they yielded life sustaining bounty . I do not know if the stories are true I was not there but those stories have lasted for 20 plus centuries far longer than virtually any of the scientific "truths" of that era .
Religion has been no less accurate than science throughout time in reality and many of the scientific "truths" of past centuries are laughed at now . Many sovereigns in the past adopted state religions and then cloaked their foreign policy / imperialism in religion as a matter of convenience far more than in true belief . Do not confuse the business of religion with your own quest for answers for spiritual fulfillment.

I think so many that comment that if there was a god there would be no childhood cancer hurricanes , earthquakes or dictators are the same people that clamor for leagues with vetoes or a government that fixes all their problems. They dress it up in " whats good for the league or what is good for society but in reality it is self serving and they guilt/shame people into acting ,thinking or doing things that are not natural. What is at issue is huge agenda to push the most obtuse freak show actions as OK and get not the tolerance of the masses which they purport to desire but the approval. Those with an agenda will find an example like caitlyn jenner and laud them as courageous and if you say what that is in reality a damned freak show and not long ago that person would and should be stoned to death that makes you a barbarian.

They feel like if earth isn't a utopia then then can be no god , when in reality who wants to live in a place where the hot stove doesn't burn your hand. Without an appreciation for untoward consequences the value of the good is diminished greatly. Those folks are just as delusional as religious zealots they just channel the zealotry in a different direction. Saying there is no god and then living by some moral code that you read or that you have developed over a period of years and then demeaning someone else for their beliefs is asinine and pretentious and frankly puts you in direct opposition to your own pretend code.

We saw it this very week where we are told what to think in cam newton parable .... he was amused that a "female" asked about routes and was excoriated for that term .... why exactly? he didn't call her a dummy or a bitch just called her a female but in a genderless politically correct society he was painted as a villain and the SJW were crazy for blood . A forced apology doesn't mean sincerity he should have stood his ground and in his taped statement he should have said I have 2 daughters and I told them they can be anything they want to be but not if they get offended or cry every time they receive a perceived slight

You are free to believe what you wish and we love to think we humans are higher evolved than the animals yet if there is no god then we are only animals, not more evolved but less evolved where the weak rule the strong. Where lawyers prevent criminals from getting what they deserve through obfuscation , where incompetence is protected by a union or by political correctness . Where elected officials protect huge corporations from the people they injure ,poison or defraud . In the animal kingdom there is practically no murder or theft only satiating hunger or need to protect ones territory with damned few exceptions. Where the most sensitive most helpless most ill fit are dictating to the balance of society to force feed ideas and actions once thought to be marginal at best into the mainstream . No friends , we think we are the top of the food chain, in reality we as a species are a piss poor representation of the animal kingdom and daily de-evolution expands. A time is coming in the not to distant future that when people (some are there already) without a smart phone they will be unable to function where the truth is outlawed in favor of the "right" thing . that is not progress that is a bane to human existence .

If you think there is no god and you are your own be all /end all you had better be right ! Since I have been on this sight for years and seen the inability to decide if someone is a star or a disappointment or a bust sometimes by the same posters on the same player I would say that we as a whole make far too many errors with dynasty football to assume we are the top of any food chain.
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Re: Did Jesus Christ die and rise rom the dead?

Postby clarion contrarion » Sun Oct 08, 2017 5:58 am

Tsunami wrote: Tue Oct 03, 2017 12:38 am
dynastyninja wrote: Mon Oct 02, 2017 12:21 pm
Tsunami wrote: Mon Oct 02, 2017 11:27 am
Even if you excuse the Crusades and Manifest Destiny and witch trials and sexual oppression and all of that, look how much religion has held us back from scientific advancement. It might make people feel better but it doesn't make their lives better, it makes them worse. Religion is a violent discriminatory waste of resources, with few (if any) exceptions.
Fully agree that those things are very negative results of religion, but I think the positives outweigh the horrible negatives here. I'd imagine things would be a lot worse if religion wasn't keeping people "in line." I think a lot more terrible stuff would be happening if people weren't worried whether they were going to heaven or hell for eternity.
I don't see how you can think that. Some of the safest nations in the world have a solid majority of non-religious people, like Sweden, Norway, Japan, Denmark, etc. And some of the most religious places are also the most dangerous.

That morality comes from religion is a myth. People follow their own values much more reliably than rules dictated to them, whether it be from the government or from a god. Prisons are full of religious people.
japan is safe today after their culture was shocked in a way no other place had endured previously. A few generations ago they were invading more or less all of south east asia and attempted to destroy the U.S. , The Scandinavian countries have a basis in Christianity dovetailed with their old pagan culture . All of western civilization progressed under the judeo christian ethos and morality and while many are straying from the religious aspect the laws and culture derived directly and are now common practice .

The manifest destiny idea was to civilize the savages as a concept but in reality it was about business and $ . The people behind the ideas used their fake spiritual cloak to get the land and resources they desired . If however, would they have stated hey we will kill and displace the natives to take their land and resources that doesn't play well at all now does it ? People now scream racism about having strict immigration policies but if not implemented rigorously the current citizens could be on a reservation in northern montana in 150 years . Go ask the native people on reservations in north dakota or south dakota if they perhaps wish their forefathers had implemented a stricter immigration policy. I think much of social media skews peoples real feelings in that many that make the loudest grandest statements get much of the attention in a way that an empty wagon rattles the loudest . Echo chamber perceptions can take hold but it doesn't mean they are accurate.
Your claim the the most religious places are the most dangerous is a red herring in that criminals cloak themselves in religion but their actions speak louder than their words . Much the same way the current SJW screech for tolerance when they are among the very least tolerant people on the plant . Their version of tolerance means you tolerate their freakshow agenda but they have no desire to tolerate any idea that disagrees with their agenda .
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Re: Did Jesus Christ die and rise rom the dead?

Postby Tsunami » Mon Oct 09, 2017 3:32 am

clarion contrarion wrote: Sun Oct 08, 2017 5:58 am japan is safe today after their culture was shocked in a way no other place had endured previously. A few generations ago they were invading more or less all of south east asia and attempted to destroy the U.S. , The Scandinavian countries have a basis in Christianity dovetailed with their old pagan culture . All of western civilization progressed under the judeo christian ethos and morality and while many are straying from the religious aspect the laws and culture derived directly and are now common practice .
Judeo-Christian morality is more like modern day Iran than like Denmark. Morality existed before Christianity, it's not a religious invention. Uncontacted tribes in the Amazon have developed their own rules and culture without needing your God. A lot of our laws and traditions can be traced through ancient Rome and Greece back to Egypt more than to the Bible. Deuteronomy is frankly barbaric and immoral by today's standards. America was founded partly by people fleeing the tyranny of Christianity.
People now scream racism about having strict immigration policies but if not implemented rigorously the current citizens could be on a reservation in northern montana in 150 years . Go ask the native people on reservations in north dakota or south dakota if they perhaps wish their forefathers had implemented a stricter immigration policy. I think much of social media skews peoples real feelings in that many that make the loudest grandest statements get much of the attention in a way that an empty wagon rattles the loudest . Echo chamber perceptions can take hold but it doesn't mean they are accurate.
You want to set your standards of racism based on the morals of a primitive society that was constantly slaughtering each other based on tribal lines? Racism was a good thing in our early evolution, because resources were severely limited and so it was important to ensure the survival of your own genes over those of outsiders, but this is no longer the case. Modern sensibility considers the Native Americans and the Founding Fathers to be guilty of human rights violations on both sides.

Why am I special because I was born (a blue eyed heterosexual male) in Virginia instead of Mexico or Iran? It wasn't because of anything I did, it isn't something I deserve and something they don't deserve. They didn't do something evil in a past life so that they now deserve to be excluded from our freedom. If I was born there I would want to come here. People aren't against immigration only because of racism, they are also afraid, ignorant and/or lack empathy.

This is one subject where Jesus Christ was ahead of his time, as he preached love of the poor, prostitutes, foreigners, and most other enemies. Instead of hating immigrants a Christian society should welcome them in, wash their feet, give them food and health care, and teach them how to fish.
Your claim the the most religious places are the most dangerous is a red herring in that criminals cloak themselves in religion but their actions speak louder than their words . Much the same way the current SJW screech for tolerance when they are among the very least tolerant people on the plant . Their version of tolerance means you tolerate their freakshow agenda but they have no desire to tolerate any idea that disagrees with their agenda .
So your argument is that people who commit crimes aren't really religious? Despite what they say, your belief system requires you to accept only good people to confirm your belief that God is good. Actions speak louder than words, and Christians have been doing evil things to the rest of the world (and each other) for 1600 years as a rule.

Intolerance of intolerance isn't hypocritical, it's conditional. We kill people who kill people, we imprison people who imprison people, we fight people who fight people, we hate people who hate people. These things are perfectly rational. What's not rational is to think you are morally superior to someone else so your beliefs are allowed to restrict their actions. There is no right to not be offended, if you don't like what someone else is doing despite the fact that it doesn't harm you in any way then you are free to leave, but you are not free to stop them.

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Re: Did Jesus Christ die and rise rom the dead?

Postby clarion contrarion » Mon Oct 09, 2017 5:09 am

this reads much like a christian broke your heart , and even if I didn't believe I would not have the energy it requires to hate something I don't believe in the much ! You seem to pick and choose the wrongs or evils committed in the name of religion or by alleged religious persons while simultaneously dismissing any positive affect persons of faith have ever bestowed on society.
meanwhile you made me literally lol at the jungle tribe comment , nowhere did I say Christianity invented morality I stated the vehicle that conveyed morality with the deepest penetration and effectiveness was religion in western civilization. Acceptance is one thing but those of freakshow proclivities want approval and that is a far different thing . Christians accept a great deal , witness the huge change in our culture that last 30 or 40 years but while I accept your right to dress like woman and have sex with whatever consenting adult you wish and worship the devil or simpson reruns I can hold in contempt that behavior the same way you obviously hold in contempt anyone who believes in a higher authority than just his own flesh and blood .

You work hard to point out the evils of religion and attribute none of the positive outcomes that is a very jaded and narrow minded thought process . You expect that all people should adhere to your code failing to fathom that it is not the be all end all when in reality you are no better suited to decide that than myself or most people. You seem to believe that everyone that says I am religious is really religious. You must be a football fan since you are here so I will draw this conclusion you have watched many a football press conference how often is the truth told ? coach speak and cliche' rule the arena talk about religion is the same way - actions speak far louder than words . Tons of people speak of religion far fewer practice it in reality . Your take on religion reminds very much of the liberal lefts take on the police Painting every evil with bright colors and dismissing all the people's lives they save and improve on a daily basis . Could it be better hell yeah it could but without the police it would be the jungle and your code would do you zero good because the predatory in nature would eat the idealists alive. Being an idealist is great just so long as someone is willing to pick up a rifle and stand at post to protect that right to be an idealist ! But then if your take on protecting our society and rights is like your take on religion you think every marine is like col. jessup.

I attribute nearly all this line of thinking to the participation ribbon mentality that has infected our society in that every little snowflake gets to have their hearts desire no matter how inane or ridiculous it may be and it is society's job as a whole to make it happen thus dismissing personal responsibility to work for your own happiness . You know a utopian dope smoking delight sort of like heaven if one believed in such a thing.

Your take on immigration is just as ignorant as your take on the evils of religion no where did I state that others didn't deserve freedom or healthcare or food - They do not deserve however to do it on our dime they are free to build that society where they are ,like our forefathers once did from our model rather than invade our country and subvert our laws , traditions and culture. Our society was built from hard work and courage of people that threw off the shackles of the greatest power the world had ever seen. It didn't just go where the system was already built and parasitically devour the host. Just because they want to come here doesn't mean all should be allowed , if your neighbor is hungry and he just walks in and eats the steak you were to have for dinner is that OK ? If you offer fine but if it is taken that is not OK.

You could teach them how to fish but with all the red herrings you throw around however they do not need to learn to fish you can feed them all.
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Re: Did Jesus Christ die and rise rom the dead?

Postby dynastyninja » Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:34 am

clarion contrarion wrote: Sun Oct 08, 2017 5:19 am
dynastyninja wrote: Mon Oct 02, 2017 8:16 am I think religion as a whole is a good thing (outside of the hate and violence it causes). Attempting to dissuade people from believing in something that gives them happiness probably isn't the best thing to do.

That said, I felt compelled to type. The current discussion is just going in circles. One of the big questions for me is this:

If God is all-knowing, how did he not know that Lucifer would become the devil? It's been a long time since I read any of the bible, but God created Satan, right? If he is all-knowing, he clearly would have known that this angel he was creating would leave him and try to poison people. Why continue to create him? If he can do anything, why doesn't he just kill Satan and be done with it? Why allow this guy who is poisoning his people to continue to poison them. To me there is no logical answer to this. If he's all-knowing, he doesn't create him and that's the end of the story.

Please cut out the "I'll pray that your heart opens up to the lord" and the "the lord works in mysterious ways" responses. I get enough people knocking on my door offering the same thing. I don't want bible verses or personal stories. I am hoping for direct, logical responses to the question. I've always been curious and have never actually asked believers.
why do parents that have dangerous criminal "evil" children not kill them while they are young ? We have all seen kids even really young kids that you just knew were worthless / dangerous but society makes excuses or tries to reform or save them generally .
This didn't answer my question at all. A parent who unknowingly gives birth to an evil child is far different from an all-knowing deity who creates the devil who he knows will terrorize the billions of people he created.

Why would he create Satan when he knew he would become the devil and poison his people?
Why would he allow a tree to be in the middle of the forest to tempt and corrupt them? Cut the tree down and save billions of your people from experiencing pain and suffering.

I have to keep reminding myself that I'm getting sucked into a discussion that no one will really change their stance on. Changed opinions on major topics (religion, politics, etc.) rarely come from someone outwardly telling you "you're wrong and here's why I'm right." It's usually when you're alone and thinking by yourself. So, this is my last post and I'll end with this:

I acknowledge that there's a very real possibility there is a creator out there. I don't pretend to know anything about them, and I doubt there are many (if any) people who do. I know I've already crossed the Christian version of God off my list of possibilities because of too many logical inconsistencies with the story of "the beginning." I will continue to strive to be a good person and improve the Earth around me, and I feel confident that that will be good enough if any creator is trying to grade me on my life. If a religion requires I sign on the dotted line to get a passing grade (and I fail if I don't) then I'm extremely wary. Also, this is all assuming that the creator cares about good and bad actions. I have no idea.

Realizing that I didn't believe in the Christian God after my very Christian upbringing was not a very pleasant thought. I don't dislike Christians, and I'm happy they have it as an emotional crutch for dealing with tough things in life. It's a very good thing for a very large number of people. I just can't ignore certain things in my beliefs.

Last caveat here: I am only actually familiar with Christianity. A shortcoming of mine is that I know almost nothing about the other major religions of the world. So keep that in mind when reading my above comments. I'm ignorant to the rest of the religious world.

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Re: Did Jesus Christ die and rise rom the dead?

Postby OhCruelestRanter » Wed Jan 10, 2018 2:50 pm

dynastyninja, as usual, raises the best point.

Either your god is not all-knowing, not all-powerful, or not all-Good.
COOGAN IS A CHEATER AND A THIEF

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Re: Did Jesus Christ die and rise rom the dead?

Postby Dynasty DeLorean » Tue Jan 30, 2018 12:52 am

dynastyninja wrote: Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:34 am
I have to keep reminding myself that I'm getting sucked into a discussion that no one will really change their stance on.
We have a winner folks. When you don't need evidence to believe in something, then evidence itself becomes quite a useless artifact. You could bring up volumes of evidence that a God doesn't exist and it'd be virtually meaningless to a person who believes a God exists despite the absence of evidence.

OhCruelestRanter wrote: Wed Jan 10, 2018 2:50 pm
Either your god is not all-knowing, not all-powerful, or not all-Good.
Of course nobody knows for sure that a God doesn't exist, just like I can't be for certain that the trolls that lived under my bed and shot lasers at my feet as a child weren't real either. What I am sure of though is that if there is a God (or "creator" of some type) it's absolutely nothing like any of us could imagine. The idea that "God" would look, act, think, or behave anything remotely resembling a human seems preposterous.

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Re: Did Jesus Christ die and rise rom the dead?

Postby ArrylT » Tue Jan 30, 2018 7:02 am

Religion is based on faith. So yeah it does not matter how much science or facts or logic someone else can bring to the table - if you believe something you believe something. If someone else chooses not to have faith in a specific religion, that is their choice, and in the end everyone believes in something - even if that something is the idea that there is nothing to believe in.
Please speak to clarion contrarion before considering the use of vetos..

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Re: Did Jesus Christ die and rise rom the dead?

Postby Jfever » Tue Feb 06, 2018 11:07 am

skip wrote: Sat Sep 23, 2017 9:54 am
Tsunami wrote: Sat Sep 23, 2017 9:37 am I love how you say the truth of Christianity depends only on one event that is unfalsifiable, and you ignore the numerous other Biblical claims that were considered to be literal historical events a hundred years ago that are now ignored as parables, like the great flood and young earth creationism. How many times does a religion have to be wrong to cast doubt upon the other parts of the myth?
I agree with dynastyninja that the discussion on forums is pointless because no one comes with an open mind, they come to argue and criticize. As such, I'm not going to take part in the debate but I will address a couple of things that you mention in here.

I am a young Earth creationist and believe absolutely in a global flood. Not only do I take those things on faith, but I also believe science supports such a view. So please do not act like believers only pick and choose the parts of the Bible that fit their beliefs.
Young Earth Creationists make very very incredible claims indeed. These claims must then have incredible evidence to support them. They do not.

Science most certainly does NOT support such a view. There are trees as old as the so called flood. There is no way to explain life on earth today based upon a flood event. There is no way to support our understanding of Genetics if the human race were to have gone through a genetic bottle neck that consisted of ONE family. There are ice core samples that go 4-5 times longer than the so called flood that is said to have occurred 4000 years ago. The Arc itself could not have been built in such a way to have been able to do the things it is said it did. How do we go on to explain island biology, How about Australia's population of unique marsupials, reptiles, etc....? I mean.... it is crazy to think that some otherwise intelligent people on this planet can somehow talk themselves into dismissing valid testable, observable, and varifiable science on one hand,yet then dismiss nearly all of it in order to make room for a simplified children's story. How be so incredibly hypocritical and accept the SAME science that lends itself to the technology that we all embrace, yet then dismiss it if it doesn't conform to what you've been brainwashed to believe? So, to say that science even remotely supports such a view - is a very false statement and It MUST be refuted in order to stop such propagation of lies to our youth. Whether it changes someones mind on this forum is irrelevant. At any opportunity to refute or to educate, we owe it to future society to do so. Childhood believe systems that are rooted in fantasy and are propagated by disillusioned adults are dangerous points of view as they minimize the importance of evidence. Evidence his how we as a species and a society move forward. If you want to choose to live in a 2nd century way of thinking fine, but, it is now 2018 and I hope beyond all hope that we stop brainwashing our youth. I suggest you folks that buy into ancient ways of thinking that are based off of ancient values, ancient and primitive knowledge and world views, make an attempt to get with the information and knowledge of the times. Look into the recent and current information available within these fields of study and what they say about a global flood event that supposedly took place 4000 years ago. Geology, Biology, physics, Astronomy, radio-metric isotope dating, anthropology, paleontology, mythology, Genetics, and Geo-Biology, This creationism, is an unsupported believe that gets propagated by child hood indoctrination. It is not in anyway supported by credible science. NOT IN ANY WAY.

Think of it like this, would any educated rationale thinking adult be easily persuaded into believing this magical story? likely not. A 3-6 year old child on the other hand.... well, that proves to be pretty easy. This is why childhood indoctrination is So very important to all religions.

And, yes, believers absolutely cherry pick the parts of the bible they choose to believe. This is the entire premise on old testament refusal and the embrace of the savior in the new testament. The christian churches and their bible do this very thing. To say otherwise self incriminates one into being categorized as a racist, sexist, murderous, torturous bigot.

So many claim to be religious but sadly they understand less about their own religion and specifically the history of their own religions origin that they claim to embrace, than those of us atheists that have done the objective research.

In summary, Atheism is the absence of faith. Faith is the belief in something without proper evidence. Faith can be good but unfortunately, it can also be very very dangerous as it can compel normal educated logical people to do some very crazy and destructive things. Atheism is not a religion at all. It is a frame work of a world view and it has nothing to do with any faith or any gods (Thor, Horus, Zues, Jesus, Sol, Buddha, Shiva, Appollo) or devils of any kind. There is truly no need for religion in today's world. Everyone that has a smart phone has access to near unlimited knowledge and information.

Take the time and look things up. Try to be skeptical of what any authority figure says. Ask yourself is their is an underlying motivational factor at stake. Money, politics, power? Is what they are telling you believable, explainable? You'll find at the very root of every single religion that there is a rationale explanation that is stemming from a source. For the modern day King James version of the Bible - you can thank the Roman Emperor Constantine for his editing of the Gospel. He did this to insure that the Roman Empire would consolidate and collaborate under his rule.
Last edited by Jfever on Tue Feb 06, 2018 12:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Truth is found through Evidence.

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* Reality (as defined by Webster's dictionary) - A word for things as they actually exist, as opposed to an idealistic or notional ideal of them.


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