Did Jesus Christ die and rise rom the dead?

[clarion contrarion]

Agreed ^^^ although fever and I rarely ever see eye to eye and despite his constantly lacking subtlety in questioning of the understanding/education of those who don't see things his way , He has toned down his arrogance a great deal from other OFF TOPIC threads. It is off topic for a reason and he is not nearly as annoying as the recently exiled emoji king not even close . While I disagree he is obviously a smart guy and believes in what he says even if others find it absurd or contradictory to their own beliefs . One of the hallmarks of christian faith is turning the other cheek and one of the hallmarks of our society is the ability to exchange ideas freely .
Guard against censorship it is far more of an evil a little to & fro about fever or any others beliefs or their thoughts or disdain for our belief. If censorship is allowed you had better always stay in power as once it is tolerated & accepted when you lose power of free speech/expression you will never get it back. Atheists and those from atheist backgrounds can join the flock ,I am living proof ! Silencing debate closes doors that may never reopen .

[jimmy jr.]

Right On Clarion !!

[DynastyDrum30]

I see no reason to end it. One never knows when another member of our forum may want to contribute a thought or ask a question. I'd say leave it. When it ends, it ends, just like 99.9 % of other threads. If you yourself have lost interest, that is also fine.

I agree here. I've been reading through this thread for quite awhile now and have found it enjoyable and thought provoking. I don't claim to know everything or even much, but I am a Christian and have done some study on arguments for and against evolution. I would like to add some comments to perhaps provoke some to at least consider some of their beliefs.

With that being said, I want to bring up the topic of the beginning of the universe. One of the most fundamental principles of philosophy is "out of nothing, nothing comes". When I say nothing, I mean literally no thing. It is non-being. It is not merely empty space, but the absence of anything whatsoever. Nothing has no reality, no existence, no nature, no properties, and no causal powers. Therefore, it cannot cause the existence of anything else.

If there literally ever was nothing, then there would always be nothing. This means that something must have always existed eternally. Now this could be our present universe or it could be something beyond the universe, but something has to have always been in existence, otherwise there would have always been nothing and there would always be nothing. For many centuries, people thought the universe was the eternal entity, but twentieth century science proved that the universe is finite in age - it came into being at some point in the past.

The proof began in 1915 with Albert Einstein's theory of general relativity, which showed that there must have been a distinct and fixed beginning point for time, space, matter, and energy, and they all exist together or not at all. In 1929, Edwin Hubble discovered that the universe is expanding, which was more evidence that it must have had an initial starting point. Other scientific discoveries confirmed the same thing - the universe definitely had a beginning.

It is common sense to think that everything that begins to exist - that is, everything that comes into being - must have a cause external to itself since a thing can't cause itself and it also can't come from nothing. Since our universe had a beginning, then it must have had a cause outside of itself. What kind of cause could create the universe?

Well, for one, since time and matter came into existence together at the moment the universe began, it implies that the cause of the universe was outside of time and space. We also know the cause is distinct from the universe since a cause must be separate from its effect. So, we can infer that cause of the universe is an eternal, timeless, spaceless, independent being. This sounds very much like the God described in the Bible.

[kadun2]

Nice post jmr12589

[kadun2]

Right On Clarion !!

X2

[Jfever]

Or perhaps a complex physics problem. Maybe one that we are on the cusp of unraveling. I think I'd personally side with Lawrence Krause and Stephen Hawking on this one at this time, rather than saying since I currently don't know - it therefore must be or mean a God did it.

Empty space has energy and it weighs something....empty space is unstable, gravity can have negative or positive energy, Weird but true. This causes the current expansion of the universe. The amount of energy is directly proportionate to the rate / speed of expansion which effects how and where and when galaxies form. This is the basics of the Anthropic principle. It's deep and interesting stuff. And, it certainly is creeping up on an understanding as to how our big bag occurred, and also the likely hood of multiple universes.

To inject a God too deeply here, because you aren't familiar with the information that could lead to an understanding, could have negative effects. I assume the widespread view some of you hold will trickle on and to others and effect their interests and motivations, and thus lesson the want or need to continue our workings in this question. To me, that would be and is unfortunate. I'm curious. And.. on this - again, if we hold true to a deist creator, it's a substantial leap then to assume that this god sat around and waited 4.5 billion years before deciding to step in and create Adam n Eve. Then of course this being is believed to at times be jealous, angry, sad, vengeful, and that he or she will watch every thing we do, know everything we think, listen to individual human prayers, interject with a bunch of miracles 2000 yrs ago, care what we eat and when we eat it, care who we have sex with and when, etc. I think the Astro physics side may be closer to the more plausable answer here, based on what we now know.
We really can't prove that there wasn't a deist creator god that was involved in the beginning of time,matter, space , but we can say that based off what we do currently know it isn't something that is probable. An individual and personal god is even less probable with all things considered, but admittedly with the scientific method, it's impossible to prove a negative.

[dlf_jaronf]

That's fine if others want to keep this going. The conversation has become cyclical, as these always do when neither side is going to change their opinion. I, like several others have stated, have not heard anything that would even remotely budge my faith that God is real and Jesus died for our sins and rose again to prove who He was.

JF, you misread. I said Christians are persecuted, not prosecuted. There's a big difference.

On a different note, I'm sorry to read that your mom had a heart attack last week. How is she doing now?

[Jfever]

Mom is doing better. shes back at home now. She had a double bypass procedure done. She also has had a stroke a few years back as well as diabetes so there are complications. Through the tough part now.

As far as the Christians being persecuted, I'd strongly disagree. In the USA about 85% of people claim to be of one religion or another. Vast majority here are some form of Christian denomination. About 50% of those that claim to be Christian, are young earth creationists and much of that view is based on the unique ability to take valid repeatable, understandable scientific evidence and set it to the side to make room for a belief. I don't see how one could think that Christians are persecuted when in reality, this group makes up the vast majority of public general population as well as nearly 100% of public office. There just aren't enough people that understand what it means to be Atheist and their is a large % of people that are scared to stand up and say that they are actually atheist because of what that "coming out" could do to their career or their relationships. Kinda Sad. I think it is VERY fair to say that Jaron, your take on Christians being persecuted is simply the flip side of the actual observable truth on a large scale as the Atheist is actually the minority here and the group that is actively persecuted. But, we are splitting hairs. Individual experience will always trump large group generalizations as it pertains to the individual's opinion. Like I said, it may be possible that you've felt persecuted. But, as far as large groups of people are concerned, it is actually not accurate in the USA at all.

I said this early but I was just reminded of it. " If a person either doesn't' understand evidence or values evidence very little, What kind of evidence could you bring to the discussion that would persuade them"? Answer: None.

yet still I will persist in providing my evidence. Maybe a few of you will be curious and look into some of the things I mentioned. And maybe at minimum, you'll consider objectively weighing things.

[dlf_jaronf]

"In the USA about 85% of people CLAIM to be of one religion or another."
"Nearly 100% of public office"
Wow, do you have a link to these statistics? I'd be interested to see this.
So Trump says he's Christian, do you REALLY think he is? His actions are completely contrary to many of the values that Christians hold. People can say whatever they want, but if money and other selfish desires are at the top of their agendas, they are not following the path that Jesus calls us to.

Again, be careful in how you try to articulate your points. "If a person either doesn't' understand evidence..." is exactly what Skip and others are talking about. You nullify your argument when you resort to being condescending.

[Jfever]

Um, Yep. here is your link Jaron.

http://news.gallup.com/poll/224642/2017 ... igion.aspx

and, here is another;

http://news.gallup.com/poll/1690/religion.aspx

I wasn't being condescending at all. Why the sensitivity? I'm not following. The facts are the facts and gallop polls are just that, polls. There is a degree of accuracy of plus or minus a couple %. Am I now supposed to look into the claims of politicians to verify if they are telling the truth as to whether or not they are actually Christian? As it pertains to you saying that Trump says hes Christian, but do I really think he is? What is this? He says he is so, he must be, otherwise you tell me why he is saying he is. Either he is a Christian, or he is a liar, or, more likely, he is both - and he lied then and continues to lie to the very people that voted for him and currently support him. That is opening a whole can of worms. I wasn't really even talking about Trump to be clear, I was being general in regard to politicians.

But, interesting, the The U.S. Congress is made up of two “chambers,” the House of Representatives and the Senate. There are 100 members in the Senate. Each state elects two senators no matter the size or population of the state. In the House of Representatives there are 435 members. As far as I know, and the last I've heard on this, ONLY one of these 535 elected officials has outright come out and said he is Atheist. So, by that tid bit of info, crossed with the recent gallop polls, I think it's clear to see that yes, there is a group of people that are persecuted, and it clearly isn't the Christian group. Either way, take a look at the the most recent Gallop poll info. My original % was off and a bit high. I guess I was going off of the older info that I've read in the past. But, still, to be clear - there is a very noticeable majority here that I think you are minimizing the relevance of. I spose I could have checked / double checked prior to posting in order to be exact, so, there is that. Here is what I found. I think it clearly shows some interesting #'s. This is from December of 2017. So, fairly recent data.


About three-quarters of Americans identify with a Christian faith
37% are highly religious; 33% not religious at all
48% of those who are highly religious approve of Trump

WASHINGTON, D.C. -- The end of the calendar year provides a good time to take stock of Americans' religion, including the way in which it remains highly intertwined with politics.

Protestants continue to make up the largest religious group in America, totaling 49% of U.S. adults interviewed as part of Gallup's Daily tracking in 2017. Catholics are the next-largest group, at 23% of the population, with Mormons accounting for about 2%. This means that about three-quarters of Americans, overall, identify with a Christian faith.

Another 6% of the population identifies with a non-Christian faith, including Judaism, Islam and others, while 21% of Americans do not have a formal religious identity. All of these groups are within a percentage point of where they were in 2016, suggesting that the shifts seen in previous years have stabilized, particularly the growth among those with no religious identity.

And, not to be rude, but it really does seem clear to me that there are concepts in Science that, if they were better understood, it would be more difficult for a large % of people to interject a supernatural deity. If I say that I don't think someone understands data, or evidence, I'm not calling them stupid. Sorry if it is taken that way. I am however calling people out for not taking the initiative to look into things further. In this day and age, this information is available, and accessible with your phone. Topics such as the basics in Geology, Genetics, Physics, Chemistry, Biology, Anthropology, Paleontology, Pathology, Cosmology all have much evidence that simply imply that the deistic or theistic personal god is not probable. None of these fields Prove there is no god. That, I will admit for sure. All of these fields and more that I didn't include, have much evidence that continues to mount up which makes it quite difficult to give credit to a supernatural being that loves us and made everything. Thats really it.

[dlf_jaronf]

You're missing the point. You're not supposed to "look into the claims of politicians to verify if they are telling the truth as to whether or not they are actually Christian"... these are politicians. Of course many say they're Christian because that's what they calculate to be their best political angle. Don't worry if your percentages are higher, it's irrelevant data because it's based on claims and not on actions. Anyone can claim to be Christian, and be a part of a percentage, but until they live as Jesus calls us to it's all just lip service. We shouldn't be surprised, most of what politicians say is lip service anyway.

[Jfever]

Oh, Jaron. I realize politicians lie. I also realize that the average human lies. Sometimes I spose they even lie about their faith so they can fit in or be accepted or to even get Votes or to get a job. This is troubling. And, it means that more people lie about being Christian in order to receive or to continue to receive treatment, acceptance, employment, votes, etc than the other way around. My point was that no, Christians really aren't persecuted in the USA. Not on a wide spread scale anyway. In other countries I find it to be a bit more likely.

[dlf_jaronf]

Well, JFever, then there you go! I'm glad to hear Christians in your area are treated well.

[Jfever]

Well, Me too Jaron. I'm much more of a humanist. I have a handful of Muslim students, a couple Jewish students, a few Mormons, a few Baptists, and a LOT of Lutherans and Catholics. There are some Agnostics and Atheists mixed in but they make up around 10-20% of my student population. But, more important than all those labels we chose to put on ourselves and others, we are all Humans and Genetically speaking we are all 99.8-99.9% alike regardless of race or religion.

Even though personally, I don't agree with how some people think and come to conclusions regarding their world view, I still value their opinion, their input, and their thoughts. Much can be learned through listening.

[Jfever]

After giving our thread discussion a few days of rest, I'm wondering if anyone has taken the initiative to look into the links, authors, and sources I offered? I've since purchased, started and finished a book by Sam Harris titled "Letter to a Christian Nation". It is a short (115pages), easy to read and understand for the layperson, book in the form of an actual letter from the author (Sam Harris) to - A Christian reader. Sam Harris is a co founder and CEO of Project Reason, has a degree in philosophy from Stanford and his Ph.D is in neuroscience from UCLA. It (This book) - is easily accessible (got mine at Barns n Noble)- and in my opinion, is a MUST read. It at minimum will spark thought and maybe perhaps for some, could help validate convictions. If you have the courage to question your own convictions, one of two things can happen. You can either strengthen your current thoughts and beliefs or you can at minimum clarify some previously held beliefs. Maybe, once you've looked into this, we could continue our discussion.

I'm sincerely looking forward to it.