Did Jesus Christ die and rise rom the dead?

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Re: Did Jesus Christ die and rise rom the dead?

Postby Goddard » Wed Feb 14, 2018 10:04 am

dlf_jaronf wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 9:56 am
Goddard, my follow-up comment was in general - not toward you, CC, JF or anyone else. This is a very sensitive subject to many so it was just a general reminder that it's ok to assert your opinion while respecting those of others'.
Thanks for the clarification. And I agree, most of the stuff said here probably won't change anyone else's opinion and being disrespectful will actually have the complete opposite outcome of what we're trying to achieve.

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Re: Did Jesus Christ die and rise rom the dead?

Postby azthecrow » Wed Feb 14, 2018 10:07 am

Good job posting that link dlf_jaronf

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Re: Did Jesus Christ die and rise rom the dead?

Postby JFever » Wed Feb 14, 2018 10:11 am

Ha. that link. c'mon guys. Seriously.

ON the topic of offense. I find it common that when one's religiosity gets questioned, they take it personal. The thing is, I typically only question the logic behind the conviction not the person behind the logic. I very rarely take personal shots like - You are a stupid person for believing XYZ or You have an ugly face. That kind of stuff is unnecessary and rude. Questioning the logic and thought process behind a belief, I feel helps to formulate positive healthy thought provoking discussion. It is on you if you get offended. Toughen up a touch maybe. Or, rather than get upset, get motivated to look for real evidence to support your claims. Or, better yet, like I said above, study the opposing side to see if it holds water, perhaps.

And Jaron, those 10 things you listed there may be sufficient for you and, since you posted it, I assume you buy into that and - I guess that is fine for you, but, for me, it isn't close to convincing. It is a list of claims based off of previous claims made by people with 1st century understanding of the world that had personal biases to support from the get go. It (your list) is littered with unprovable and unrepeatable phenomena that has zero concrete supportive evidence. In the court of law it would be called circumstantial and one would not be convicted of a crime base off that type of evidence. Eye witness testimony..... hmmm. I think we all understand that eye witness testimony is as weak as it gets, regardless if it were women or men. Ask 10 people that "witnessed" an event yesterday to tell you what happened. You'll see what I mean. If it (your list) were anything like real evidence, we'd have a starting point. It is really nothing close to any type of evidence. It is circular and saying something is evidence doesnt make it evidence. I find that a great many bible people say things like "the bible is legit because - it says so in the bible".... I'm like huh? Did you hear what you just said? I'm quite sure the Jews would look at that list and chuckle. I'm also quite sure that the Hindu's, and Muslim's would disagree wholeheartedly.

here is a link to check out. Let me know what ya think.

https://www.alternet.org/story/154774/t ... eve_in_god
Truth is found through Evidence.

Science is the poetry of reality.

* Reality (as defined by Webster's dictionary) - A word for things as they actually exist, as opposed to an idealistic or notional ideal of them.

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Re: Did Jesus Christ die and rise rom the dead?

Postby azthecrow » Wed Feb 14, 2018 10:42 am

Well, speaking for myself, I felt I needed to post a Christian viewpoint here since so much anti-God stuff was being posted following the OP’s original post. I know this is a FF forum so it seems kind of odd that we are in to such a heavy subject, but the OP’s post caught my attention and I followed along. I think very quickly the debate changed to faith vs evidence. We all know these are very different. One thing I would point out is the over 2500 prophecies in the Bible. To this point over 2000 of them have come to pass or been true. The remaining 500 or so have to do with the end times and are still to come. Many of these prophecies spanned over hundreds of years and came to pass exactly as prophesied. This is something I refer to when someone wants some type of proof to believe. But no one can really explain why someone believes. It is as if a blind man can suddenly see, or as if someone who has fallen into a deep pit for days and is found and pulled out. That is the joy of finding Christ. Evidence battles cannot change God’s saving grace. God is the same yesterday, today, and forever.
Last edited by azthecrow on Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Did Jesus Christ die and rise rom the dead?

Postby dlf_jaronf » Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:06 am

JFever wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 10:11 am
Ha. that link. c'mon guys. Seriously.

ON the topic of offense. I find it common that when one's religiosity gets questioned, they take it personal. The thing is, I typically only question the logic behind the conviction not the person behind the logic. I very rarely take personal shots like - You are a stupid person for believing XYZ or You have an ugly face. That kind of stuff is unnecessary and rude. Questioning the logic and thought process behind a belief, I feel helps to formulate positive healthy thought provoking discussion. It is on you if you get offended. Toughen up a touch maybe. Or, rather than get upset, get motivated to look for real evidence to support your claims. Or, better yet, like I said above, study the opposing side to see if it holds water, perhaps.

And Jaron, those 10 things you listed there may be sufficient for you and, since you posted it, I assume you buy into that and - I guess that is fine for you, but, for me, it isn't close to convincing. It is a list of claims based off of previous claims made by people with 1st century understanding of the world that had personal biases to support from the get go. It (your list) is littered with unprovable and unrepeatable phenomena that has zero concrete supportive evidence. In the court of law it would be called circumstantial and one would not be convicted of a crime base off that type of evidence. Eye witness testimony..... hmmm. I think we all understand that eye witness testimony is as weak as it gets, regardless if it were women or men. Ask 10 people that "witnessed" an event yesterday to tell you what happened. You'll see what I mean. If it (your list) were anything like real evidence, we'd have a starting point. It is really nothing close to any type of evidence. It is circular and saying something is evidence doesnt make it evidence. I find that a great many bible people say things like "the bible is legit because - it says so in the bible".... I'm like huh? Did you hear what you just said? I'm quite sure the Jews would look at that list and chuckle. I'm also quite sure that the Hindu's, and Muslim's would disagree wholeheartedly.

here is a link to check out. Let me know what ya think.

https://www.alternet.org/story/154774/t ... eve_in_god
That link was one of many. Just an example. I don't need an internet article to convince me of what I know is true. Likewise, I don't care if it convinces you. I don't expect it to. Much like I'd ignore any list trying to convince me there is no God (like the one you shared) because there is no proof of what you're saying is true.

You find Christianity hard to believe. I find it hard to believe that there was once... nothing. No universe, no galaxy, no planets, no stars. Then out of that nothing came a big bang. Then there was life - bacteria. Life cannot come from non-life. Then the DNA changed. The complex DNA that makes up a brain, eyes, limbs, organs... all came from nothing. That's far-fetched. If you believe it, that's up to you, but it sure takes a lot of faith to believe that God did not create our universe.

The discussion is becoming cyclical and no side is going to convince the other. We are but one of many opposing views discussing this matter in some capacity. Probably the only one in a dynasty football forum though :lol:

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Re: Did Jesus Christ die and rise rom the dead?

Postby dlf_jaronf » Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:06 am

Goddard wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 10:04 am
dlf_jaronf wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 9:56 am
Goddard, my follow-up comment was in general - not toward you, CC, JF or anyone else. This is a very sensitive subject to many so it was just a general reminder that it's ok to assert your opinion while respecting those of others'.
Thanks for the clarification. And I agree, most of the stuff said here probably won't change anyone else's opinion and being disrespectful will actually have the complete opposite outcome of what we're trying to achieve.
:clap: 100%

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Re: Did Jesus Christ die and rise rom the dead?

Postby JFever » Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:15 pm

dlf_jaronf wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:06 am
JFever wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 10:11 am
Ha. that link. c'mon guys. Seriously.

ON the topic of offense. I find it common that when one's religiosity gets questioned, they take it personal. The thing is, I typically only question the logic behind the conviction not the person behind the logic. I very rarely take personal shots like - You are a stupid person for believing XYZ or You have an ugly face. That kind of stuff is unnecessary and rude. Questioning the logic and thought process behind a belief, I feel helps to formulate positive healthy thought provoking discussion. It is on you if you get offended. Toughen up a touch maybe. Or, rather than get upset, get motivated to look for real evidence to support your claims. Or, better yet, like I said above, study the opposing side to see if it holds water, perhaps.

And Jaron, those 10 things you listed there may be sufficient for you and, since you posted it, I assume you buy into that and - I guess that is fine for you, but, for me, it isn't close to convincing. It is a list of claims based off of previous claims made by people with 1st century understanding of the world that had personal biases to support from the get go. It (your list) is littered with unprovable and unrepeatable phenomena that has zero concrete supportive evidence. In the court of law it would be called circumstantial and one would not be convicted of a crime base off that type of evidence. Eye witness testimony..... hmmm. I think we all understand that eye witness testimony is as weak as it gets, regardless if it were women or men. Ask 10 people that "witnessed" an event yesterday to tell you what happened. You'll see what I mean. If it (your list) were anything like real evidence, we'd have a starting point. It is really nothing close to any type of evidence. It is circular and saying something is evidence doesnt make it evidence. I find that a great many bible people say things like "the bible is legit because - it says so in the bible".... I'm like huh? Did you hear what you just said? I'm quite sure the Jews would look at that list and chuckle. I'm also quite sure that the Hindu's, and Muslim's would disagree wholeheartedly.

here is a link to check out. Let me know what ya think.

https://www.alternet.org/story/154774/t ... eve_in_god
That link was one of many. Just an example. I don't need an internet article to convince me of what I know is true. Likewise, I don't care if it convinces you. I don't expect it to. Much like I'd ignore any list trying to convince me there is no God (like the one you shared) because there is no proof of what you're saying is true.

You find Christianity hard to believe. I find it hard to believe that there was once... nothing. No universe, no galaxy, no planets, no stars. Then out of that nothing came a big bang. Then there was life - bacteria. Life cannot come from non-life. Then the DNA changed. The complex DNA that makes up a brain, eyes, limbs, organs... all came from nothing. That's far-fetched. If you believe it, that's up to you, but it sure takes a lot of faith to believe that God did not create our universe.

The discussion is becoming cyclical and no side is going to convince the other. We are but one of many opposing views discussing this matter in some capacity. Probably the only one in a dynasty football forum though :lol:
Ok. But, first and foremost, there is proof, scientific, measurable, repeatable proof that what I am saying is concrete and very very real, and the thing of it is - it isn't really that complicated. I just cant help but wonder how you KNOW something is true but there is no way for you to explain or prove it. Particularly when you actively choose to not look into it or question it. I cant help but wonder what leads one to ignore such things in life. But, the world is a big place and it seems likely that my profession and my interests have me deeper into this subject matter. I get it kinda. I respect your freedom to believe what you want to. I just wish your conviction were to come after you analyze all the information currently available. I'm beginning to understand your angle. Yours is one that is typically referred to as "the god of the gaps". If there is something that you can't quite explain or currently understand, you interject god. The strange thing is Jaron, the things that you say you have a hard time believing, the big bag, the origins of life, micro biology, and DNA / Genetics, the special organs of the nervous system all HAS been explained. I guess its on you do learn about these REAL world topics. If you choose not to, I guess that is your right. But, You must understand that these topics you speak of have been DE-mystified by science. These topics ARE understood. Where once religion had explanations, now, it takes a seat in the back of the bus because Science is driving.

As a science educator, it saddens me a bit that much of what is now known is actively ignored by a large portion of the otherwise educated public in order to hold on to indoctrination. Imagine if everyone that doesn't know the answer simply explains it off as being supernatural. Where would medicine be, where would our knowledge of Ecology, Astronomy, etc be?
Truth is found through Evidence.

Science is the poetry of reality.

* Reality (as defined by Webster's dictionary) - A word for things as they actually exist, as opposed to an idealistic or notional ideal of them.

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Re: Did Jesus Christ die and rise rom the dead?

Postby dlf_jaronf » Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:51 pm

JFever wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:15 pm
dlf_jaronf wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:06 am
JFever wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 10:11 am
Ha. that link. c'mon guys. Seriously.

ON the topic of offense. I find it common that when one's religiosity gets questioned, they take it personal. The thing is, I typically only question the logic behind the conviction not the person behind the logic. I very rarely take personal shots like - You are a stupid person for believing XYZ or You have an ugly face. That kind of stuff is unnecessary and rude. Questioning the logic and thought process behind a belief, I feel helps to formulate positive healthy thought provoking discussion. It is on you if you get offended. Toughen up a touch maybe. Or, rather than get upset, get motivated to look for real evidence to support your claims. Or, better yet, like I said above, study the opposing side to see if it holds water, perhaps.

And Jaron, those 10 things you listed there may be sufficient for you and, since you posted it, I assume you buy into that and - I guess that is fine for you, but, for me, it isn't close to convincing. It is a list of claims based off of previous claims made by people with 1st century understanding of the world that had personal biases to support from the get go. It (your list) is littered with unprovable and unrepeatable phenomena that has zero concrete supportive evidence. In the court of law it would be called circumstantial and one would not be convicted of a crime base off that type of evidence. Eye witness testimony..... hmmm. I think we all understand that eye witness testimony is as weak as it gets, regardless if it were women or men. Ask 10 people that "witnessed" an event yesterday to tell you what happened. You'll see what I mean. If it (your list) were anything like real evidence, we'd have a starting point. It is really nothing close to any type of evidence. It is circular and saying something is evidence doesnt make it evidence. I find that a great many bible people say things like "the bible is legit because - it says so in the bible".... I'm like huh? Did you hear what you just said? I'm quite sure the Jews would look at that list and chuckle. I'm also quite sure that the Hindu's, and Muslim's would disagree wholeheartedly.

here is a link to check out. Let me know what ya think.

https://www.alternet.org/story/154774/t ... eve_in_god
That link was one of many. Just an example. I don't need an internet article to convince me of what I know is true. Likewise, I don't care if it convinces you. I don't expect it to. Much like I'd ignore any list trying to convince me there is no God (like the one you shared) because there is no proof of what you're saying is true.

You find Christianity hard to believe. I find it hard to believe that there was once... nothing. No universe, no galaxy, no planets, no stars. Then out of that nothing came a big bang. Then there was life - bacteria. Life cannot come from non-life. Then the DNA changed. The complex DNA that makes up a brain, eyes, limbs, organs... all came from nothing. That's far-fetched. If you believe it, that's up to you, but it sure takes a lot of faith to believe that God did not create our universe.

The discussion is becoming cyclical and no side is going to convince the other. We are but one of many opposing views discussing this matter in some capacity. Probably the only one in a dynasty football forum though :lol:
Ok. But, first and foremost, there is proof, scientific, measurable, repeatable proof that what I am saying is concrete and very very real, and the thing of it is - it isn't really that complicated. I just cant help but wonder how you KNOW something is true but there is no way for you to explain or prove it. Particularly when you actively choose to not look into it or question it. I cant help but wonder what leads one to ignore such things in life. But, the world is a big place and it seems likely that my profession and my interests have me deeper into this subject matter. I get it kinda. I respect your freedom to believe what you want to. I just wish your conviction were to come after you analyze all the information currently available. I'm beginning to understand your angle. Yours is one that is typically referred to as "the god of the gaps". If there is something that you can't quite explain or currently understand, you interject god. The strange thing is Jaron, the things that you say you have a hard time believing, the big bag, the origins of life, micro biology, and DNA / Genetics, the special organs of the nervous system all HAS been explained. I guess its on you do learn about these REAL world topics. If you choose not to, I guess that is your right. But, You must understand that these topics you speak of have been DE-mystified by science. These topics ARE understood. Where once religion had explanations, now, it takes a seat in the back of the bus because Science is driving.

As a science educator, it saddens me a bit that much of what is now known is actively ignored by a large portion of the otherwise educated public in order to hold on to indoctrination. Imagine if everyone that doesn't know the answer simply explains it off as being supernatural. Where would medicine be, where would our knowledge of Ecology, Astronomy, etc be?
I'm curious, then, where did matter came from? How life originated? If it's so simple to explain, it should be quick, right?

George Wald is a famous biochemist, you may have heard of him. He said “When it comes to the origin of life, we have only two possibilities as to how life arose. One is spontaneous generation arising to evolution; the other is a supernatural creative act of God. There is no third possibility…Spontaneous generation was scientifically disproved one hundred years ago by Louis Pasteur, Spellanzani, Reddy and others. That leads us scientifically to only one possible conclusion—that life arose as a supernatural creative act of God…I will not accept that philosophically because I do not want to believe in God. Therefore, I choose to believe in that which I know is scientifically impossible, spontaneous generation arising to evolution.”

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Re: Did Jesus Christ die and rise rom the dead?

Postby clarion contrarion » Wed Feb 14, 2018 1:13 pm

JFever wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 9:12 am
Further, if you want a "real-world" application of this, look into how many Eagles gave the glory to Jesus IMMEDIATELY after winning the Super Bowl. Doug Pederson, Zach Ertz, Nick Foles, Brandon Graham... the list is lengthy. Many players were baptized this season alone.

Now this ^ I have a problem with. By what do you mean by "real world application"? It is ludicrous. If you mean real world use of a podium to push and to propagate a belief? sure, that is what it was. But.... c'mon. For them to thank god for the super bowl? What does that mean? Should the loser then be pissed that God let them down? That God didn't answer their prayer? Maybe perhaps the Eagles fan's prayed harder? Maybe perhaps God felt that they deserved it and the Patriots have already had their fair share? This is one of the biggest problems I have. Its as if people just don't think about things with a clear objective thought process. Its as if they prayed harder than the Patriots. Its as if GOD favored them and their fans.

Don't you think it has a touch to do with Genetics, work ethic, passion, coaching, execution of a game plan? health? Or.... if you are really buying into this?

- Maybe we should all just take a day off, start praying, and praying real hard, so maybe I can play in the next super bowl. Screw that, I'm going to start praying for a winning lottery ticket. I mean is there no end to how far we are willing to stretch this propaganda?

Simply put, ask yourself if your belief system that you were brain washed into believing is reasonable. I think it is quite reasonable to think that it is unreasonable. Why? as I've stated many times, it is 2018. There are real life answers to why the Eagles won and in reality, it had absolutely nothing to do with a supernatural deity.
I will go out on a limb and say God didn't care who won the super bowl , the eagles gave the glory -- giving someone/thing(other than one's own greatness) the glory is known as humility . Deflecting one's personal achievements instead of thinking it was of their own works . The pats players I am sure gave the glory to God for being where they were as well , as true competitors losing the super bowl for some could be the highlight of their life just not at that exact moment as losing sucks.

I was a very small child it was my biggest dream to play playoff hoops at the biggest gymnasium in the local area even chose that as my birthday present as like a 7 year old even though I didn't know a soul on either team. My parents obliged despite not caring about the event or the teams ,long story short (or less long as it were) I did realize my dream only to get smoked by the big city school that normally won - that sucked in the moment but I made to where as a child I dreamed of making it - as a 7 year old it seemed like my super bowl. I still count it as an answered prayer even though I had never prayed until I was in my 30's coming from an atheistic background. People assume using the lord's name in vain is cussing . I take in more literally is prayer for your own pride 's sake or own gain that is vanity . Proper prayer should be praying for god's will be done sometimes that will not dovetail with one's own personal wish .
Some of the best lessons I ever learned came from defeat or failure , deflecting glory for one's success is offensive to some as they miss the message by a mile. To me the deion sanders ,Terrell owens ocho cinco brand of look at me while I thank myself type of thanks to be far more offensive .
Help me understand why you are so offended living in america where you can espouse what you wish people espousing christian ideals .
Why not seek out and trash physics profs that say curveballs don't curve or knuckleballs don't knuckle. You can compare your education and credentials all day and then agree to disagree at length !
The is proof is in the # that those things cannot occur as a physics PHD explained to me , Well proof is one thing but I witnessed those phenomena ,I write it down . If 50 or 100 years after I die, knuckleballs or curveballs no longer are ever thrown (call it a lost art) so no one living can prove they truly existed as the method was lost to history . It would not change that fact that it occurred and is a real phenomena . If you were never a backstop experienced in wearing the tools of ignorance (catcher's equipment for the uninitiated)
and read the physics prof well you would think that knuckleballs and curveballs were retelling of fairy tales of mythic fictional characters thrown around by talking lizards.
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Re: Did Jesus Christ die and rise rom the dead?

Postby skip » Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:17 pm

Ok, I've finally had enough with some of these posts... Using the terms "indoctrinate" and "brainwash" are incredibly offensive and I ask that they stop being used. Frankly, I could use the same terms to describe any position one takes in this arena.

I am very well educated and a product of the "indoctrination" and "brainwashing" that exists in our educational system. I am also a young Earth creationist and born again Christian - a decision I came to in my 20s after a point where I was willing to study for myself what may or may not be true.

To suggest that such a conclusion only goes one way (belief to non-belief) is both blind and ignorant.

I've read this topic from the beginning but have no interest in debating it because as some of you point out, virtually no one comes to the table with an open mind. The only reason I felt I needed to chime in was to address the offense terms being thrown about as though they are appropriate or acceptable.
When the ignorant are out of arguments they fall back on name calling, vulgarity, and threats.

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Re: Did Jesus Christ die and rise rom the dead?

Postby JFever » Wed Feb 14, 2018 10:08 pm

As an admitted young earth creationist Skip, I guess I'd expect you to be offended. My apologies if you've chosen to receive my use of the word indoctrinated offensively. The dictionary defines it as this - to teach (a person or group ) to accept a set of beliefs uncritically.

Seems like I've used the word in the proper context. Never meant to offend anyone personally. I guess I too get a little offended when I see what I believe, in ever thread of my being, to be flat out lies being pushed upon society and more importantly, on children by knowing and unknowing adults and authority figures.

As for the question of Matter from no matter as it pertains to the Big bang theory, Lawrence Krause's book 'Something from nothing', answers this. It would take me a lengthy post to put in my own words, as I'd have to describe the basics of dark matter, quantum physics, black hole behavior, neutrinos, quarks, and basic atomic theory concepts. But, if you truly are interested in the concept, YouTube search : Krause / Something from nothing. I mentioned him earlier in this thread.
I'm quite passionate about educating, and a large part of this is teaching people how to think critically for themselves, to question, to be skeptical, to search for reason, motive,and logic, to value evidence, to search for truth, to be curious, to hypothesize, and to simply look for answers to questions concerning their world, their history, their present existence, and their future.

The misunderstanding of many as it pertains to the experiments done by Pastuer, Spallanzani and Redi are this;. They attempted to simulate a primitive earth atmosphere in a closed system. Methane, CO2, and hydrogen sulfide mostly. They exposed this gaseous mixture to small charges of energy in the form of low voltage electric shock. What they got was not life. So, you are correct that they helped to strengthen the concept of life not coming from non life. But, what they did get was precursors to important organic compounds. Some simple amino acids and other simple building blocks nessisary for primitive life. Amio acids are building blocks for proteins and lipids. We (all living things on earth) are essentially made of About 70% h2o and the other +/-30% is a combination of protein and fat. So, what the experiments showed is that vitally important and complex organic precursers could be made in a lab. With the inclusion of time (the earth is 4.6 billion years old and by about a billion years after solidification of the Earth's crust and some cooling, the conditions were condusive), this seems to indicate that life, simple self replicating, likely with RNA like nucleotides, membrane enclosed plasmids likely could have happened with no guiding hand of a creator. This process would have been a slow gradual incline in complexity from RNA to DNA in micro organisms that would be akin to today's archea-bacteria and eubacteria. Then through competition for limited nutrients, natural selection led to Endosymbiosis, eukaryotic cells came from smaller bacteria like structures that were precursers to today's mitochondria and chloroplasts. Admittedly, it isn't a definitive answer. But, it is logical.
If one wants to claim that there is a creator being of some sort, the burden of proof is on them. It seems that with some investigation of basic science, a guiding hand of a personal deity, isnt required. And even then, if we went with the Christian creator story, we'd have to answer the question of who created the creator? It's a circle of increasing complexity that just isn't needed.
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Re: Did Jesus Christ die and rise rom the dead?

Postby lukkynumber13 » Thu Feb 15, 2018 2:42 am

JFever I have a question for you, and I am legitimately curious as to what your response will be: is "indoctrination" as you put it, teaching kids about the Gospel of Jesus Christ, His resurrection, etc as well as creationism vs evolution and the sanctity of life vs pro-choice, all of these controversial topics - is indoctrinating my kids with these facts - as I see them - wrong? I understand that I am absolutely influencing them, and statistically speaking they will probably be more likely to own parts of my worldview if I teach them my worldview, but is that somehow wrong? Is it somehow evidence that what I'm teaching them must be inherently bogus or weak, because it "needs" to be taught at a young age in order to take root?

I believe absolutely that Jesus is God, and that he died on the cross about 2K years ago, and that sacrifice was Grace enough to save me from my damned fate as a sinful "son of Adam". I believe that without Christ as my savior, I am destined for Hell. I believe every word of that without hesitation. And I'm not, at this juncture, asking to debate those things here - that's not my point.

So IF I believe those things to be true, am I not a fool and a villain, if I don't "INDOCTRINATE" my own kids as to what I sincerely believe to be matters of eternal life & death? Should I not teach them my beliefs about eternity? Am I not doing the same thing, albeit on a much grander scale, teaching my son that the stove is hot and so he'd better do everything he can to avoid getting burned? Am I not teaching my son to avoid walking into a rattlesnake den, for fear of getting bit? These are all things a father (parent) should teach his kids, the principle is the same in each example.

This stuff isn't theoretical, it's not just a religion class that I'm teaching my kids. It's their eternal future that I'm attempting to prepare them for as best I can. If that's indoctrination, is that in any way wrong or evidence of a false religion?
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Re: Did Jesus Christ die and rise rom the dead?

Postby dlf_jaronf » Thu Feb 15, 2018 5:49 am

So JF, lots of "what ifs" and "maybes" that turned literal nothingness into analytical beings.

If you were to be presented with physical evidence of the existence of God, would you be open to it? Or, like a Nobel-winning biologist, would you choose to ignore that evidence because it's not what you want to believe? Instead, you opt to believe in that which Wald knew "is scientifically impossible, spontaneous generation arising to evolution"

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Re: Did Jesus Christ die and rise rom the dead?

Postby skip » Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:53 am

JFever wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 10:08 pm
As an admitted young earth creationist Skip, I guess I'd expect you to be offended. My apologies if you've chosen to receive my use of the word indoctrinated offensively. The dictionary defines it as this - to teach (a person or group ) to accept a set of beliefs uncritically.

Seems like I've used the word in the proper context. Never meant to offend anyone personally. I guess I too get a little offended when I see what I believe, in ever thread of my being, to be flat out lies being pushed upon society and more importantly, on children by knowing and unknowing adults and authority figures.
You continue to insinuate that anyone accepting a belief in God (or any god) is doing so without any critical thought. How arrogant and myopic your world view is as to believe that there is but a single explanation - yours - of the facts and evidence of what we observe around us.
When the ignorant are out of arguments they fall back on name calling, vulgarity, and threats.

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Re: Did Jesus Christ die and rise rom the dead?

Postby JFever » Thu Feb 15, 2018 8:55 am

Oh Skip..... , I think you see what you want to see. You must be real good at selective vision. You saying my view is myopic is incredibly ironic. And, it isn't' my view. It is just the view that is supported by evidence. Real evidence. Not made up falsified / doctored up evidence. There is a difference. I'm quite sure you are aware of that.

Jaron, Really not a bunch of "what ifs and maybes" as you put it. Id say that your take there is minimizing some very substantial information. But, if that is how you interpret my explanation, so be it. It's really just basic organic chemistry. But, oh well. Pertaining to Spontaneous Generation, well, I think the name is the misleading part. It is really more of a snail like paced gradual incline of subtle advancements over a vast amount of time. (I'm guessing perhaps its the time involved that throws some folks for a loop because the chemistry part is fairly easy to comprehend once you understand Carbon and it's properties). As a scientist, I am never 100% certain of anything. As in you can't prove something to be true, but, you can disprove things. So, by that logic, If I were presented with solid, observable, testable, and tangible evidence for a god, I'd be forced to accept that information. I'd be just as skeptical of it and accepting of it as I am of any other type of testable / observable phenomena. I am a skeptic for sure but I am an open minded skeptic if that means anything to you. I am not LOCKED into my view. My view is in a way plastic, flexible, and ever changing, yet, contingent on facts and evidence and if the facts and evidence that currently exist in reference to any religion were to change, I too would then change my thoughts on them. The thing is, currently, the overwhelming mountains of evidence that does currently exist, heavily leans toward one side of this discussion.

Lucky, I'm in no position to tell you how to raise your family. You come across as a good person, a well educated caring guy from what I can tell. I don't think you somehow magically obtained these virtues from the religion you inherited however. You and I also have many of the same opinions on fantasy football. So, there is that! I don't blame you or think less of you as a human for holding beliefs within your family. My guess is you practice similar beliefs as your parents and they likely got theirs from your grandparents and so on. It is typical. I do however see the comparison of the teaching of the hot stove and the one about faith in "eternal salvation" as being quite different. One of them is a safety thing, the other is a belief rooted in faith. Faith is a belief which persists without sufficient evidence. Sometimes in the face of overwhelming opposing evidence. Anyway, Again, It isn't my place at all to tell you how to raise your family. If you are passing on values that are important to you that you feel will help your children - then, by all means do that. I may not agree with your logic, your reasoning, and your thought process by which you come to your conclusions, but, I don't disagree with your basic premise of trying to be the best Dad that you currently know how to be. I might suggest that you also teach your kids to think critically of information that is presented. That is ALL information from all sources. This would include but isn't limited to questioning (politely of course) all concepts that are taught in school, all concepts that are taught by you, and by your church authority figures. Questioning the world leads to getting answers. Answers lead to knowledge, and accruing knowledge leads to a well rounded and more accurate I think, world view. Teaching children to blindly accept without any questioning or reasoning - anything, is extremely dangerous in the long run for their development. Also, teaching children about religion in general as in multiple viewpoints, as opposed to just one viewpoint is also not a bad idea. - (This is what I have done) Let them attempt to figure some of it out. Why are we XYZ rather than WZX? There should be an explainable reason. What is the difference between our religion and the religion(s) of your friends? Why do we hold this belief? Where did this belief originate. Is the belief that we claim reasonable. The more effort you put into explaining things correctly, I'd imagine the better off your kids would be. If however, your child asks you - Dad, Why is the sky blue? Or, (points up in the sky), Dad, what is that ? How did it get there? etc, if you respond - Well, son/ daughter, I don't know its a miracle or - That's how God made it. Well, then, you are doing harm. Much better I think to answer honestly. If you don't know an answer or know how to explain something, Tell them so, it's ok to not know everything. Then, just actively look it up with your child. Show them that if there are things they don't currently know, that by being curious and having questions, they can learn about the world. And, if you do this with them, they'll never forget it, they'll appreciate your approach, and it will become a life time habit.

Question for you. Real question(s). I am also curious to see where you sit on these? Do you believe that there is a place called Hell? Do all who don't accept your faith go there when they die? Do all other religions that are not compatible with yours, or, other than yours, go there? Is it forever? Is it really a fiery hot place? Do rapists, murderers, cereal killers that repent at the last minute to ask for forgiveness get to by pass this Hell place of yours and then ascend into heaven to spend eternity with their forgiving / loving god? Meanwhile, in your world view, do Atheists like myself who spend their lives caring for their children and the children of others, giving back, educating, paying taxes, picking up litter, donating to needy, volunteering time to help community organizations, sacrificing gobs of time - just go to Hell then because I find religion to be an unsupported bunch of lies spread by authority figures to control behavior of large social groups? Do you tell your child that is raised under the saving umbrella of your "correct" religion that if he or she has a friend in school that is of a different religious persuasion, that Sorry, your little friend is destined for Hell because he/she doesn't believe what we do? Do your kids grow up fearing this "real" and tangible place? Are you a morally good person because you are afraid that if you are not, that you will go to Hell and suffer for eternity? Do you also believe that despite all the evidence that the earth is 6000 years old? Do you believe in the story of Noah's arc? Do you believe that 65+ million years ago that dinosaurs ruled the world? That Moses was 500 plus years old? Do you believe in a real Adam and a real Eve in a real garden of Eden? Do you believe it is moral, ethical, or forgivable, to kill a person or large groups of person because of personal revelation in a belief or a god? And, it seems simple but at the very root of a larger issue is this - Was Adam and Eve the 1st two people on planet earth? And, did your god really create the entire universe and all that is in it, including all life forms on planet Earth in 6 earth days or 144 hours?

If your world view is not compatible with the following information, I would be one to then not agree with your world view. Check this short clip to see if your current world view is compatible. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_jyHp3bmEw
Truth is found through Evidence.

Science is the poetry of reality.

* Reality (as defined by Webster's dictionary) - A word for things as they actually exist, as opposed to an idealistic or notional ideal of them.


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