Did Jesus Christ die and rise rom the dead?

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Re: Did Jesus Christ die and rise rom the dead?

Postby JFever » Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:33 pm

Oh, and to put this part of our convo to bed; if your into watching people getting schooled in a debate; youtube search the aforementioned Frank Turek (the guy that AzCrow mentioned that wrote the book 'I don't have enough faith to be an Atheist'). # anyone can write a book .... Search Turek vs Hitchins. It's 2 hrs, but worth it. It becomes quite obvious that Turek is a God of the gaps type guy. What does this mean? Basically not educated enough in topics such as micro-biology, macro-biology, chemistry, and astronomy, to understand that his very un-understanding of these topics, is what fuels his very belief system.

Anyway -

#When people throw phD's out there to validate points, remember to be skeptical. He earned his PhD from Southern Evengelical, in Apologetics.

Needless to say, this isn't the same as a PhD in Bio, physics, Chem, Astronomy, philosophy, medicine, Economics, etc. And he isn't near the level of the sources I referred to above. Take the time and look into them objectively. It's worth it.

Oh, and to be thorough, Everyone that reads this should, immediately after reading this post, YouTube search "Norman Geisler and his thoughts on public school and creationism", if you don't currently know about him. I'll leave it up to you from here. Figure this out on your own. It'll mean more that way. #Looking forward to further discussion. Peace.
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Re: Did Jesus Christ die and rise rom the dead?

Postby Goddard » Mon Feb 12, 2018 9:58 am

Funny thing is, religious people only believe in their God and think other religions are false. So if someone is an atheist, we pretty much agree with you, just don't believe in one extra religion as you.

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Re: Did Jesus Christ die and rise rom the dead?

Postby JFever » Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:18 am

Funny, yet... not funny at all. Sad in a way. Hypocritical to an extreme extent. The word corrupt comes to mind. So corrupt and misleading that it seems to me to be on the verge of true evil. There are simply too many things wrong with religion in general to do my side of the discussion justice. I'm not at all saying that some good things aren't done by religious people, but I am saying sternly that it doesn't take religion to do good.

Those that preach that absolute morals are derived from a divine all powerful, all knowing creator being, simply have to ask themselves ONE question. Name one "moral" thing that a "believer" can do that a "non believer" cannot do. Just one act, just one thing.... If you can think of it, then, we have a discussion. Since you cant and won't be able to think of it, that argument of Morality coming from some made up divine being, can be safely put to rest. I'm quite sick and tired of religions hijacking and kidnapping the virtues of man that they find to be good and then portraying within their message that it was their idea. :wall: :wall: :crazy:

HAPPY DARWIN DAY all! Charles Darwin, one of the greatest thinkers of modern history!!!!! His work is simply elegant. If you haven't read the Origin, you should do so. He also has several other less popular books dealing with HUMAN evolution that are great reads. Thank you Darwin for all your great biological contributions. The world is a better place because of his work! Too bad so many have simply missed the message. It behooves us to continue to fight the fight one day at a time.

It also is Abe Lincoln's birthday. Both of these men are great emancipators for humanity.
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Re: Did Jesus Christ die and rise rom the dead?

Postby lukkynumber13 » Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:38 am

JFever wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:18 am
Those that preach that absolute morals are derived from a divine all powerful, all knowing creator being, simply have to ask themselves ONE question. Name one "moral" thing that a "believer" can do that a "non believer" cannot do. Just one act, just one thing.... If you can think of it, then, we have a discussion. Since you cant and won't be able to think of it, that argument of Morality coming from some made up divine being, can be safely put to rest. I'm quite sick and tired of religions hijacking and kidnapping the virtues of man that they find to be good and then portraying within their message that it was their idea. :wall: :wall: :crazy:
Im going to tread very carefully here, but I do personally believe that true forgiveness, the action of wholly releasing one who harmed you from any "debt" (and actively deciding not to resent them, or bold a grudge against them) is something that is almost impossible for a human to do on his/her own. It defies logic, and it defies "evolution"/biology, because from that standpoint, revenge or hatred towards one who has harmed me or my family makes sense. It seems like that would be the logical response, in order to best protect myself and my family. And yet, I have seen the incredible results that true, raw, forgiveness bears. It is nothing short of miraculous.

I realize that this is not a scientific argument in and of itself, and you can pick it apart. I'm by no means saying that all or even a majority of Christians practice true forgiveness. It's very rare.

But it goes against man's nature to forgive. It's very unnatural, and it's very beautiful and powerful.
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Re: Did Jesus Christ die and rise rom the dead?

Postby clarion contrarion » Mon Feb 12, 2018 1:45 pm

religion is a business far separated from true spiritual fulfillment , the evils committed in the of religion are often trumpeted by those who do not believe in anything greater than themselves . The world leaders have often confiscated religion or used it as a cloak to hide their real mission or intentions . Does that make the religion evil, which the evil person or the alleged leader who confiscated the message for worldly gain.
They always leave out the josef stalin brand of atheism from their seeking of the truth. Did what stalin do seem wrong to you ? If so why? if we are animals with no soul or guidepost then the only thing that makes it wrong is your code. Animals in the wild kill when they feel like it whether to eat protect their young or expand their territory and feel no remorse further; the other animals don't recoil in horror.

If you think there is no god and tell me what stalin did is wrong then I say you are a contrarian B.S. artist .Morals are ever changing what was an abomination for one generation is perfectly acceptable for another . What if every person that had aids in the 80's were killed when diagnosed and the entire world's population were forced to take a blood draw to nip that plague in the bud. What if every producer of cigarettes were killed as morally repugnant since those 2 groups led to the deaths of millions . That would be morally right ? It saves millions of lives so it must be Ok ? Perhaps the antelope mother or the baby birds mother feel a tinge of regret but the wildebeests and leopards don't feel bad if an antelope gets devoured or a lion gets kicked to death trying to take down their dinner. Many superior minds have spoken of their faith those people are left off the list when the pseudo intellectuals preach to their church . Yes it is a church with its own ministers telling people what they should not believe in or the things they were taught as immoral are ok so a snowflake that wants to potty in the opposite restroom doesn't get their feeling pinched a mite- by its very definition that is a religion or in the least a thought police marketing campaign. They collect only in terms of book deals rather than passing the collection plate but it is a church none the less. What pisses them off the most is their thoughts and alleged moral teachings aren't tax deductible.
What is comical as hell is I don't believe in bigfoot but I do not waste my time on bigfoot websites trying to convince people that there is no bigfoot , I don't even go there and try to convince them that nick chubb is better than saquan barkley if his knee ever gets back to full song . Even though I could prove it with numbers ! What do you possibly hope to accomplish at least dawkins gets paid to spew his special brand of venom whats in it for you ? Is it moral to question others intellect since they do not believe what you believe,if so your code sucks and is quite unenlightened and not very evolved frankly.
Raised in a militant atheist household I was battered with all the reasons there is no god - message didn't take. Does bigfoot exist - gonna say no but if you believe and frankly you should if we evolved from a common ancestor as apes as at somewhere along the timeline surely a few tribes broke off and didn't evolve at the same pace as the rest of the tribes right? Those tribes were not hunted to extinction were they ? I mean all the other species have evolved at different rates so why wouldn't humanesque ancestors ? There must be somewhere a species between chimps and the most backwater tribes of the amazon shouldn't there be a species of middle humanoids that just were a bit slow a dunce cap species or did every pre human species die out except the one that exists now ? If the ice melts and the water rises and species disappear wouldn't that be natural evolution do you seek to hold back natural evolution by preaching your climate pablum as well . We are the top of the food chain allegedly and if we want to drive SUVs and run our AC at 63 all summer and it melts the ice well that is what an animal would do right? they would not give a flying damn about polar bears or snail darters & why should neither are a prey item& if the climate warms enough we won't even need the polar bears pelts to keep warm now will we ? right ?

The crux of atheists is their need to feel superior from just an average human so they can connect the moral dots without a spiritual sherpa it feeds their need to be evolved, it is generally just elitest pablum. They feel like spiritual peace is a crutch to lean on rather than a sail to catch the breeze - truly their loss . Not all questions are going to be answered in our lifetimes and our scientific laws held in the strictest regard now will be punchlines 150 or 200 years from now just like much of what passed for science 200 years ago is closer to voodoo or concentration camp exploration seems now.
newton or kepler were giants in their time they believed as well as scores of other past intellectuals and I will trust there judgement over the clan of dawkins and his ilk as the work they do, they message they posit will not have the staying of past intellectual giants .
pascal's wager is what jules told me my belief system reminded him of or said my logic represents he is wicked smart so what he says is possible . I approach it like a gambler just playing the odds pascal said (paraphrased) there is no cost to being wrong if you believe and a massive cost to not believing and being wrong

have a great day folks
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Re: Did Jesus Christ die and rise rom the dead?

Postby JFever » Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:56 pm

Alright, Was waiting for ya to chime in CC. Now we have a party started.

Where to start.... Well, lets take a look at the morality thing first. Morals are a product of an ever changing society. It is typical to bring up Stalin or Hitler. At least you didn't bring up Hitler (who was raised catholic / and the Germans had a cross on their belt buckles of their dress uniforms - presumably working in the name of the lord to cleanse the world of the true killer of Christ - the Jews). So... Stalin. What he did was absurd but was not done in the name of any belief. It was political and power motivated. Not done in the name of a religion or a non religion "Atheism". What we find "Moral" today likely wasn't the same that an average dude would have found "moral" say 50, 100, 200, 500, 1000, 2000, etc years ago. Moral outlooks change. They change with place and with time. If you look close, you'll see that if you truly got your morals from the christian god, you'd be one crazy MF. Look into Leviticus for some insight on this. IN NO way do we want our real morality to come from a selfish, tyrannical, tyrant of a ruler that allows such massive horrific things to happen on global scales to Innocent children. Sorry, the morality thing just doesn't hold water. Sure there are good people and bad people on both sides here. But assuredly, we do not get our morals from any majical supernatural supreme being. We most assuredly do not have a over watching father figure listening to our prayers, caring what we wear, what we eat, if we have sex, if we go to church, how much we donate to the church, etc. That is simply absurd.

Ill fast forward through some of this and get to a point that I feel needs to be laid out clearly as it is a common misunderstanding. People of the 1600's and 1700's - if they wanted an education often times HAD to go through the church. The common view point of nearly all well educated people WAS a belief in god as a creator. This was 150 years before Darwin utilized Hutton, Lamarck, Wallace, Lyell to collaborate their work to formulate his Theory of Natural Selection which later came to be called "The Theory of Evolution by Natural Selection". After that publication, there was literally NO excuse for the well read individual to assume that life needed a guiding hand of a supreme magical being. I.Newton was likely one of the most brilliant men to ever walk the earth. (Keep in mind he died a virgin - not that it matters to my point) - but it is simply knowledge of the times that would be useful when making claims like CC did. Nearly ALL educated people of that TIME were religious. It wasn't their fault. I think it quite safe to say that if Newton lived 2 centuries later - he would have had a very easy time NOT being a believer. But, that is an assumption. And, if we are to understand the scientific method at all, then we clearly would understand that it works. It works because we learn from our mistakes. It works because of it's design. It works and this explains how Science advances. The fact that you are reading this sentence on a phone or a computer is testament to what I speak of. Science propels us forward by improving on previous knowledge. Religion tells you to believe what an authority figure says even if it is based on poor evidence.

I gotta run. I'll check back in later to continue my response. I wasn't able to address all the points I wanted to.
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Re: Did Jesus Christ die and rise rom the dead?

Postby Dynasty DeLorean » Mon Feb 12, 2018 6:50 pm

AzTheCrow wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 3:24 pm
Dynasty DeLorean wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 1:03 pm
AzTheCrow wrote:
Sat Feb 10, 2018 8:17 pm


My opinion of anyone does not matter here. I was merely pointing out scripture that related to Goddard’s speculation. Reinforcing it, so to speak. A reference, if you will.
But you already injected your opinion by labeling it the "degeneration of society."
Then why did you ask?
That is the word of God, not my opinion. If that strikes a nerve with you then maybe you should look into it further (the Bible).
It was a pretty simple question, and you admit the reason you chose not to answer was a lie. I asked because you referenced a quote and I wondered if you actually believed that verbatim. Most religious people admit the Bible or other religious texts are more to be used as a guideline and not to be taken literally. Not sure why you avoiding a question would make me want to go read the Bible.

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Re: Did Jesus Christ die and rise rom the dead?

Postby azthecrow » Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:11 pm

Are you a religious person?

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Re: Did Jesus Christ die and rise rom the dead?

Postby JFever » Mon Feb 12, 2018 8:30 pm

Ok. Picking up where I left off.

We today are afforded the luxury of hindsight. We can look back at scientific contributions and deduce their validity and their accuracy as well as their impact on society, and progress. To mention Newton is ok I suppose. He was most certainly a Christian as we're ( like I stated above), nearly all people of his time and place. He however was a man of physics. His particular science never sought purpose. It ( the physical sciences) sought explaination of observable physical phenomina. I; gravity, velocity, friction, thermodynamics, acceleration, time, speed of light, etc. I do find it amusing that Einstien wasn't brought up. Convienantly left out perhaps. Einstein was very much an Atheist' through and through. Anyway, Newton was a Christian but this typical view in the 1700's, didn't have a strong impact on his views, measurements, math, calculus, and opinions of the physical world he maticulasly demistified. Basically what I'm saying is that it matters little if Newton or Kepler believed or didn't beleive. Why? Simply because of when and where these two great scientists existed. Why doesn't anyone ever bring up the Chinese? It's strange to me because this culture was far a head of most... and it was near 100% non christian. Now i'm not taking anything away from Newton or Kepler and their great contributions to our understanding of the physical world and universe that we now understand. It just seems odd to take a side with these classical scientists of the 18th century and simultaneously downplay the modern contributions of Dawkins, Neil Degrass Tyson, Stephan Gould, Carl Sagon, Stephen Hawking, and Lawrence Krause. The later two of which are today's very own version of Kepler and Newton. And it goes without saying that the level of brilliance is at least comparable if not equal by modern standards of though and certainly awareness of scientific cause and effect. This debate could go on and on I assume. But I must mention the trivial and slightly hypocritical and lazy viewpoint centering on the side of one that goes with the Pascal's wager in order to "hedge ones bet". I mean c'mon. If everyone in science history we're to go that route, I wonder where we'd be and how similar to a "middle ages / bronze age" type society we'd all be enduring. It is just a flat out lazy approach to finding a personal philosophy.

I'm far from an expert admittedly, but I am quite motivated to understand why people think the way they do. Thus, I've studied my field thoroughly. I'm a Biology guy. Majors in Bio, Earth Science, minor in Chem, Physics, masters in Education. I focus much of my professional time on furthering and deepening my understanding of Evolutionary theory, ecology, and genetics. However, I spend my free time (when not doing fantasy football stuff) studying theology, the history of religion, and the works in the Bible. Hence, in conversations, I seem to know quite a bit more about the book that many claim this the basis of their beliefs.

Like I said earlier in thread, I was indoctrinated as a child. It was only through investigation, inquiry, questioning, and skeptical thought, was I able to gradually move away from the lies that once ruled my world. ***The best way to know what is true is to deeply study the viewpoints that rival your current opinion. I think it seems obvious that most of today's Christians a). Haven't read the Bible, or if they have, they don't understand the context, and , b). Aren't that educated, or aren't educated enough in a field of study that would or does contradict what their current religious authority figure says. So, when something comes up that they don't have an answer for, they simply interject God, and happily move on.

If you base your faith on personal revelation and or the Bible (which most certainly claim to do), tell me, where is your evidence? I have yet to hear or read anything remotely close to persuasive.

The Bigfoot stuff, the Atheism as a religion, the climate change jabs, and the very motivation by myself to snuff our bull$#&@ whenever possible will have to wait a bit as my post went long once again. I'm simply a material humanist. It seems to be the most logical world view from what I have seen in my own personal research. I simply am under the strong impression that many that claim to believe, haven't done their research on what they believe and why.
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Re: Did Jesus Christ die and rise rom the dead?

Postby dlf_jaronf » Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:34 am

Careful, JFever. To assert your argument by being condescending that most Christians "don't understand" and "aren't educated" is not fact-based and has no actual evidence.

You can try to assert your perspective without such a weak, stereotypical argument. Keep it respectful.

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Re: Did Jesus Christ die and rise rom the dead?

Postby JFever » Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:04 am

Hey there. For what it's worth, I think I have been respectful in regard to my message. I certainly wasn't trying to be directly rude or condescending. My apologies if It came across that way. Wasn't the intent. No name calling to speak of, nor was there any direct personal attacks. Much more civilized I think than many of our threads discussing this player or that or ppr vs 1/2 ppr, Nick Foles future, or the abysmal state of the history of the Cleveland franchise, or what have you. The fact does remain though that globally, a great many proclaimed religious / Christian and others do come from impoverished 3rd world countries. The very origins are said to come from a poverty stricken land in the middle east around 2000 ish years ago. It is a similar story. Countries that do not have infrastructure, well established governments or education systems are easy prey. Heck, there are countless 'mission' trips that travel around the world to give aid and help (which is a great thing), but the hook is that these people help with water, food, health care, clothing, etc, but simultaneously attempt to indoctrinate the otherwise mentally incapable by 'spreading the word of a certain belief'.

Thanks Jaron.
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Re: Did Jesus Christ die and rise rom the dead?

Postby clarion contrarion » Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:34 am

After he maticulasly (LOL) renders his credentials and educational background how can we doubt any of his theories or assertions !
I have utter disdain for grammar/spellchecker police in non formal environs but when one lays out his intellectual superiority as rigorously as JF I will make an exception to my own rule.
which is it the bronze age or the middle ages sport? only a millennium (or two or three) apart so I get the confusion
The chinese ...wtf ? not christian true but much of the country were believers just not of the christian faith, except for the communist party officials who are prohibited from religious affiliation .
You excuse newton being a believer due to the time in which he lived and the push out china as irreligious in a time when the government while not denying religious freedom excises their members from having affiliation so the states position is we don't need religion and while we won't prohibit it don't believe and think you will help decide the future of our country - sort of like belive be a non believer and think you can decide the future of our country ! does that seem a mite puzzling ? MR JF
Russia crumbled under the ridiculous marx engels graft ridden policies and theories in less than a century ,the clock is ticking on china . They dressed themselves in a people's sheep cloak but they were elitist wolves seeking prey on which to feed and when the prey item was acquired they devoured not only the prey item but most of the flock that helped with their disguise. Meanwhile anglo-saxon driven western europe and north america are working on a millennium of status at or near the top of the world food chain. Absorbing the best of greek and roman society and the allowance of free thought and the practice of religion . The societies which ban those activities for lack of proof or as an opiate of the masses rarely have the masses best interest at heart . That philosophy craves unquestioned obedience while preaching no chains whereas the religious type cultures ask for subservience but desire freedom that proof lies in the history of the various results of those cultures . That is not to say that the west has not veered off course a time or twenty with the inquisition or puritanism it is fact , But the progressive journey of religious and educational freedom of western civilization far outshines any marx engels pablum in action if even the theory is deficient . The simple reason is humans are not robots and the people in power of atheistic totalitarian powers have failed miserably to care for their charges. They were much more interested in caring for themselves and ridding the world of dissent.

It comes down to JF's mindset in a nutshell they wrap themselves in their purported intellectual superiority and justify their atrocities and actions in their disdain for those without understanding. Their creed -We know what is best and if you disagree you must be stupid or unable to fathom our superiority . The scary part is many of these individuals indoctrinate our youth not when they are small children as JF recoils in horror at but as they are of coming of age when their actions can follow their thoughts/mind washing. Thus breeding more marx engels wannabes that would love for those theories to be practice but only insofar as they themselves are the shepherds and not the sheep. Their intellect fails them as they rely on equations and math principles to prove there is no God but they fail to understand the math involved in engineering a pyramid. See how it works is the top is tiny compared to the base and all the weight is pressuring the base . So if you are chasing that vapor of theoretical truth best be damned sure you are the top of the pyramid but odds are you will be the base. contrarian philosophy/math hybrid 101 editorial has now concluded!
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Re: Did Jesus Christ die and rise rom the dead?

Postby JFever » Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:07 am

No Red herrings there bud. Wowzers. Safe to say you take great effort in twisting my words, intentions, meaning, as well as motivation. You also seem to be quite good at just missing the point. It is a head scratch-er for me. The forum / online equivalent of the person in a discussion that (rather than listen intently to their partner speak in order to understand a point or avenue of thought) simply waits their turn to speak. Quite frustrating as you come across as an intelligent person. I feel like you know and understand what I'm trying to say and it seems odd that you go to such great lengths to twist a message. Not sure what your motivation is as it seems murky at best. It seems at times that you take a step or two forward, then you run around in circles for a bit with little sometimes subtle sometime not so subtle jabs, then settle in about 3 steps back from where you started. Just an odd approach to productive discussion in my opinion. But, as always, to each their own. I'm not at all attempting to brain wash people. Simply trying to help to inform and share what I myself have learned over the years. Again, I was brought up in a very religious home. Baptized catholic, then confirmed Wisconsin evangelical Lutheran.

I realize wholly that discussion of this topic on these forums very rarely result in an individual with certain convictions changing his or her mind. That really isn't my goal here. If I made it seem that way, I'll have to do a better job as that wasn't and isn't my actual intention. Rather, it is to promote questioning and skepticism. It is to promote education and push forward the information age. I'm not hoping or insinuating that anyone that reads through this must blindly accept my assertions by listing my background education and such. In the contrary, I'm asking / I'm pleading with you to actively look into it to look for answers. You should doubt me, you should look into the very sources that I list and skeptically look for weakness in logic, in evidence. The beautiful thing here is this. You are able to look into this quite easily in 2018. As I mentioned above, you can easily look into the very thing you think you believe. You can verify it, you can attempt to strengthen it by looking very closely at the best arguments that contradict your belief. If you find after doing some research in today's modern age, that your convictions held water - then you are better off and likely more comfortable in your own skin. It's a win / win.

Religion just doesn't historically do this or even approve of this. Many times in our history, religion has suppressed freedoms of thought. * see Galileo example. Anyway, It is about faith. Faith is defined as The belief in something without adequate evidence. If that is what you want to promote, fine. Say as much then. If it is the freedom of choice that you'd like to promote. Fine, we will very much agree on that. But, freedom of choice means little or much less without the individual ability to make educated fact based decisions. Children cannot do this. Therein lies my central issue. Therefore, in my opinion, the indoctrination of children into a specific religion or religious label before they have the appropriate mental faculties to tell the difference between a story and a historical event, is teetering on a type of child abuse, as it hinders thought, problem solving, and one's views on reality. We should no more refer to a 4, 5, 6 year old child as a baptist, a catholic, a Lutheran, a Muslim, etc than we should call a a toddler a Republican, or a Democrat.
Last edited by JFever on Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
Truth is found through Evidence.

Science is the poetry of reality.

* Reality (as defined by Webster's dictionary) - A word for things as they actually exist, as opposed to an idealistic or notional ideal of them.

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Goddard
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Re: Did Jesus Christ die and rise rom the dead?

Postby Goddard » Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:27 am

JFever, stop trying to brainwash us here. All Atheists are evil and narcissistic and don't know what they're talking about...j/k, I pretty much agree with most of what you're saying. It's ok to force children into religion and brainwash them at an early age, rather then giving them an opportunity to choose what they want to believe in, but when you're trying to give your point of view to a bunch of adults, it's blasphemous. I agree when you said that most religious people (not just Christians) know very little about their own religion. I've always had a theory that religion was invented to put some form of fear in people to police them...which wasn't necessarily a bad thing back then. But we've come a long way from those days and have laws and rules that have taken over. I think a lot of people are afraid to question whether or not their god is real because they fear hell or whatever punishment could come from that. I guess in a way I can respect that, because if god really does exist and you didn't have faith, then you're spending eternity in hell. But if he doesn't exist and you still believed, oh well, no biggy. I guess call me a risk taker, but I'll take my chances. And I don't have to be religious to have morals and be a good person. I've met too many religious people who claim to have morals but are huge hypocrites, along with lots of atheists who do good things and give back all the time. It goes both ways...religion doesn't make you a good person, just like not believing doesn't make you a bad one.

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azthecrow
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Re: Did Jesus Christ die and rise rom the dead?

Postby azthecrow » Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:18 am

Jesus paid it all,
All to him I owe,
Sin had left a crimson stain,
He washed it white as snow!

Thank you Lord Jesus!

PS - I was indoctrinated with religion as a child, but gained a life saving relationship with God as an adult. It started with the seed planted by my parents.


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